'Dismal' prospects: 1 in 2 Americans are now poor or low income

[eliza61]

The thing is that not everyone bought into the easy money. We do all right, but certainly are not wealthy. Nowhere near it.
Money has never been easy for me. We could easily have tapped into home equity, but thought it would be better to live within our means.
I guess that is part of the reason why I find it so difficult to understand
and even more difficult to fund it for people who waste so much.It is a mess.

Not too long ago having a cell phone was a luxury -- now it's become the standard. The "luxury" is having a cell phone AND a landline.

It's not only houses too. How many people would lease cars if the dealership said, "Rent this car"? I know a number of people who are very frugal. They may be small in number, but they are solidly grounded in old-fashioned ideals when it comes to money. But then, I still own a manual typewriter, so what do I know?

I think you guys have hit on the general problem, most societal problems begin with how we "think". LOL that's what keeps sociologist and historians in business.

The problem is frugality is a very small virtue to the general society.
Muush, that's why it's such a foreign concept to you.


Now factor in some other variables.
1) We are getting older, LOL. hate to admit it, but as those of us who lived with a different mentality, a younger more "spend" now life style will replace it.

2) Constant bombardment. We are constantly bombarded with the message, "spend now" " you deserve it". credit counseling sevices have commercials non stop about how "its not your fault" or "call us and pay pennies on the dollar of what you owe". One of my favorite TV commercials is from a furniture store called "raymore and Flannigan". They are running an ad about buying a room full of furniture and not paying for it until 2016!! The reason I find this so funny is that by 2016 there is a good chance you'll have to replace some of he furniture since it's not the best made stuff. So in 4 years you'll have a bill for stuff that is old.

3) Consumer mentality. MsPete, while you may still own a typewriter, you would be hard pressed to buy one today and you are in an extremely small minority. The mentality is to "buy new". I find this a supremely American mentality. Does anyone remember shoe repair shops? where you could go get your shoes resoled or a heel replaced? or how about "tough skin" jeans from Sears. the guarantee was if you destroy them before you outgrow them, sears replaced them. My point is, in the not so far ago past the emphasis was on "lasting" value. That has morphed into some thing totally different. We are an extremely wasteful society and whats worst is we "justify" it.
Remember when gas hit 4 bucks and everyone and their mama swore that's it, no more gas guzzling 10 cylinder cars for a family of 4? and truthfully you only see 1 person in them the majority of time. yeah, that lasted a hot minute. Yet I can't tell you how many post from moms who swear they need the space for 1 kid.

 

[ellone]

Does anyone remember shoe repair shops? where you could go get your shoes resoled or a heel replaced?

We still have them. My husband took some of his work shoes to one a few months ago.

 

[neatokimmo]

It is interesting to read all the responses about COL and such for different parts of the country. Here, 45K would be a great income.

Someone mentioned the poverty number of what, 22k for a family of 4? Here, that amount would work, no issues. Why? Because I have lived it! You can get call center jobs that pay that much, one person working. So the mom stays at home.

22,000
-2200 (10% medicare SS)
-5650 (mortgage on 70K starter house with PMI, insurance and taxes)
-2400 (5 yr car payment on a 10K car)
- 600 (car insurance)
----
11,150 left over for utilities, cell phone and clothes etc Your groceries would be covered by food stamps & wic. Plus you'd get a fat tax return back at the income level with 2 kids even though you didn't put a penny in.

 

[crashbb]

We still have them. My husband took some of his work shoes to one a few months ago.

I can think of five that I can easily get to (e.g. on my way to/from work). I've had a few pairs of shoes fixed.

 

[ilovemk76]

I think you guys have hit on the general problem, most societal problems begin with how we "think". LOL that's what keeps sociologist and historians in business.

The problem is frugality is a very small virtue to the general society.
Muush, that's why it's such a foreign concept to you.


Now factor in some other variables.
1) We are getting older, LOL. hate to admit it, but as those of us who lived with a different mentality, a younger more "spend" now life style will replace it.

2) Constant bombardment. We are constantly bombarded with the message, "spend now" " you deserve it". credit counseling sevices have commercials non stop about how "its not your fault" or "call us and pay pennies on the dollar of what you owe". One of my favorite TV commercials is from a furniture store called "raymore and Flannigan". They are running an ad about buying a room full of furniture and not paying for it until 2016!! The reason I find this so funny is that by 2016 there is a good chance you'll have to replace some of he furniture since it's not the best made stuff. So in 4 years you'll have a bill for stuff that is old.

3) Consumer mentality. MsPete, while you may still own a typewriter, you would be hard pressed to buy one today and you are in an extremely small minority. The mentality is to "buy new". I find this a supremely American mentality. Does anyone remember shoe repair shops? where you could go get your shoes resoled or a heel replaced? or how about "tough skin" jeans from Sears. the guarantee was if you destroy them before you outgrow them, sears replaced them. My point is, in the not so far ago past the emphasis was on "lasting" value. That has morphed into some thing totally different. We are an extremely wasteful society and whats worst is we "justify" it.
Remember when gas hit 4 bucks and everyone and their mama swore that's it, no more gas guzzling 10 cylinder cars for a family of 4? and truthfully you only see 1 person in them the majority of time. yeah, that lasted a hot minute. Yet I can't tell you how many post from moms who swear they need the space for 1 kid.

Maybe if the government stopped giving away fish then we would realize we need to learn to fish and then use up those fish before we fished out the stream. I know many 20-somethings that are very frugal.

There is a shoe repair place at our mall. In the past, we have used them for DH's boots.

DH an I look, and will pay for, items that would last. Our couches are way older than 4 years old and do not look like they are ready to be replaced. All the rest is real wood that will outlive us.

You keep making excused. Even if what you say is valid for 100% of the people, that does not mean we can't change. Time to start leading by example.

A while ago you told us about all the people at your church's food panty that wanted jobs. Others told you about the ND and other states. How many of those men actually did anything to get there and get a job? Your church keeps giving them food (fish) but did they buy any bus tickets appropriate clothes (teaching how to fish) to get them to where the jobs are? Camden was not a hot bed of jobs in the past few decades.

 

[eliza61]

\A while ago you told us about all the people at your church's food panty that wanted jobs. Others told you about the ND and other states. How many of those men actually did anything to get there and get a job? Your church keeps giving them food (fish) but did they buy any bus tickets appropriate clothes (teaching how to fish) to get them to where the jobs are? Camden was not a hot bed of jobs in the past few decades.

Actually many did. Now a lot of them were not qualified because a lot of the jobs in ND were in the petroleum industry and were for specific tradesman but those that did think they qualified are pursing them.
Makes no sense to give them bus tickets if they don't have the qualifications for the job now does it? they'd just be stuck in North Dakota. One company we research Invotech was definitely hiring but they wanted Electrical engineers, mechanical engineers, chemist and refinery operators. Sorry but we don't get many electrical engineers rolling through our food bank.

As for money for bus tickets, no we do not randomly give out money (actually we don't give out cash at all) for folks to hop and bus and hope they get a job. remember a lot of that information from that thread was very general, I did contact one or two people who specifically said their company was hiring but if you read the majority of answers were retail jobs.

My church is first and foremost a church so we operate on donations of time and money. For example I'm a Chemist by trade but I pretty much function as a social worker and researcher because as a volunteer they can't be chosing and try to use what ever talent we get.

Yes we keep giving them food because unlike you, we believe it's acutally best to feed people and try to assist them also. The few people who wander in that have come across with the "throw them into the streets and they will learn to "fish" method have not learned to fish instead turned to prostitution and selling drugs to survive. Oh yeah that was helpful. throwing people into the streets has yet to magically make them some how find a job and food.

Yes we have given many interview suits, we hold annual clothing drives not only for kids but for adults returning to the work force.
We have classes on how to resume write and how to go on interviews.
We assist them in finding low cost child care
We partnered with the two local community colleges to try and get low cost job training in technical fields that can be accomplished quickly.
Next year we are trying to hire 2 state life coaches. We plan on offering a class on life skills, like good grocery store choices, planning meals things like that.

About the only thing we don't do is deal with folks who are on drugs or run an overnight shelter. Those two areas have different certification and state requirements.

Contrary to what you think, these people are not sitting at home waiting for a check that comes into the mail. Right now almost every class, seminar and information session is packed to the gills. I'm generally there 3 evenings a week for 2-3 hours and I can say I've yet to met one of these so called people who are trying to get a welfare check and go to disneyworld and not one person that I know of that has signed up for food assistance is eating lobster tails and steak like they seem to do here on the dis. I could be hanging out at the wrong grocery store though.

If you read the thread, I do believe I mentioned that most were working up until this recession and most were pretty much willing to do any job. Are we going to encourage some one to move from NJ to North dakota to work in a $4/hour convenience store. NO.

 

[Colleen27]

A while ago you told us about all the people at your church's food panty that wanted jobs. Others told you about the ND and other states. How many of those men actually did anything to get there and get a job? Your church keeps giving them food (fish) but did they buy any bus tickets appropriate clothes (teaching how to fish) to get them to where the jobs are? Camden was not a hot bed of jobs in the past few decades.

A one-way bus ticket with no housing or assurance of a job at the other end isn't teaching anything. It is trading poverty in one place for poverty and homelessness in another.

 

[crashbb]

It is interesting to read all the responses about COL and such for different parts of the country. Here, 45K would be a great income.

Someone mentioned the poverty number of what, 22k for a family of 4? Here, that amount would work, no issues. Why? Because I have lived it! You can get call center jobs that pay that much, one person working. So the mom stays at home.

22,000
-2200 (10% medicare SS)
-5650 (mortgage on 70K starter house with PMI, insurance and taxes)
-2400 (5 yr car payment on a 10K car)
- 600 (car insurance)
----
11,150 left over for utilities, cell phone and clothes etc Your groceries would be covered by food stamps & wic. Plus you'd get a fat tax return back at the income level with 2 kids even though you didn't put a penny in.

If you need to rely on the government for food stamps, wic, and welfare (it isn't a tax return if you didn't pay any in), then you are at the poverty level.

You've actually just proven the point of many on this thread - the assumption that the government should be funding your life.

 

[NLD]

I'm always sort of amazed at this idea that welfare monies are so easy to get.

Several years ago we (family of 3) found ourselves without any health insurance and then on top of it, a very short period of time where dh and I had at first no income and then a miniscule income. (Think family of three surviving on $8/hr job.)

So anyway. There we were, famiy of 3 (dh, me, and toddler-aged daughter), with no income and no health insurance, with dh and I both having pre-existing conditions.

We applied for state health insurance and while dd qualified for the kids' program, dh and I did not qualify for any kind of Medicaid.

We were told by the state that we could qualify if we emptied dh's 401k, which had a few thousand dollars in it. (Like under $5 K.)

Now, given that we weren't of the mindset that we'd take govt money forever, we knew we would work again and keep trying to find livable jobs, we did not want to empty the 401K. We knew we'd need retirement money way in the future and we didn't want to empty the tiny bit we'd saved towards retirement just to qualify for state health insurance now. It felt like sabotaging our future just to avert a present but temporary crisis.

So we just went uninsured.

Shortly after this I got a job (also very low paying but it was a foot in the door to the field I wanted to work in) and then dh got a job in his career field that actually paid okay.... and since that period in our lives it has all gotten better and better, our earnings have increased and our standard of living keeps improving. We're very grateful.

But that experience really opened my eyes to how it's NOT really so easy to get govt health insurance.

As an aside, the field I now work in (after getting my foot in the door back then) is the public mental health field. I am surrounded by people on social security disability, supplemental income, food stamps, and Medicaid and Medicare.

I've yet to meet ONE who drives a fancy car or goes out to eat or wears purchased-new-at-Macy's clothes. Many folks lived in group homes or personal care homes. Some in subsidized (Section 8) housing.

The folks who lived in personal care homes surrendered all monies to the home as payment, all except $60 per month that they were allowed to keep. That $60 / month had to cover everything else in their lives beyond what the personal care home provided. There was absolutely no one driving any car of any type in those homes, buying cell phones, or going out to eat. Can't afford any of that on $60 / month. (The personal care home allowance in PA has been increased since then.)

Of the folks in subsidized housing, I knew one who owned a car. An old beater with no loan on it and he was considering dumping it because it was difficult for him to afford the auto insurance, even though it was the only way he had to get from the rural town we were located two counties over to see his family.

Of course a bunch of people didn't own cars because their licenses were revoked by their psychiatrists anyway from the meds.

They all knew which days the church within walking distance offered meals and were all grateful for those meals. They all knew which thrift stores and clothing closets to go to for decent clothes. When winter would roll around they'd check back at the clothing closet regularly to try to score a winter coat.

This was when I worked in direct care.

Eventually I moved onto a more statewide systems advocacy type of position. I've spent the last four years helping the state further develop and implement a brand new direct-care service that helps people with mental illness who've been on Medicaid, Medicare, and SSDI go back to work helping others learn from their own experience about how to recover and NOT live life as "mental health patient" forever dependent on the system.

So now I'm still surrounded by folks who've received govt services much of their lives, only most of these folks are going back to work and learning that they can work despite their mental health challenges. (Something that many of them were told by doctors they'd never be able to do.) A number of folks have been able to get off all govt assistance while at the same time helping the people they serve "learn how to fish for themselves" also (to use the phrase in this thread).

Anyway. So I realize I work with and am surrounded by a very specific segment of the population that uses govt services--the mental health population. But my experience with folks in this group has never been one of people using the govt to subsidize a fancy lifestyle.

And I wish I could find the report but can't right now, but... when you look at where govt entitlement spending really goes, it's not the proverbial "welfare queen" who keeps "popping out kids" (so demeaning) to get a bigger check. In fact the majority of spending for govt welfare programs is taken up by the programs and benefits for SENIORS.

 

[Colleen27]

It is interesting to read all the responses about COL and such for different parts of the country. Here, 45K would be a great income.

Someone mentioned the poverty number of what, 22k for a family of 4? Here, that amount would work, no issues. Why? Because I have lived it! You can get call center jobs that pay that much, one person working. So the mom stays at home.

22,000
-2200 (10% medicare SS)
-5650 (mortgage on 70K starter house with PMI, insurance and taxes)
-2400 (5 yr car payment on a 10K car)
- 600 (car insurance)
----
11,150 left over for utilities, cell phone and clothes etc Your groceries would be covered by food stamps & wic. Plus you'd get a fat tax return back at the income level with 2 kids even though you didn't put a penny in.

Except at that income you wouldn't get the full food stamp allowance; the average benefit for a family with more than $1000 in income is $159/mo and 22K is a lot more than $1000/mo even after allowable deductions (IIRC, the formula is 50¢ lost for every extra $1 of income). So even on a very frugal plan you'd have to spend some portion of your remaining income on groceries. Figure at least $25/week for OOP groceries and that's $1300/year.

Then you have utilities. We average about $300/mo for the essentials - heat, electric, and water/sewer. Add in a phone and you're at $4000/year.

So now you're down to $5850 without taking into account gas or maintenance for the car, medical premiums/co-pays, OTC meds or other uncovered medical/optical/dental expenses, clothing, home and car repairs, or anything else that may come up. It can be done but only conditionally - the minute something goes wrong, even something relatively minor/routine like an appliance going kaput or a car needing a major repair, it all falls apart.

 

[neatokimmo]

I probably should have gone on with more numbers but I was on my lunch break and short on time. You are right, the stars have to align just right. There are some variables, like some of the jobs available are work at home. They pay for your PC and internet. You have a yard and could grow edibles. In this area (and I know it is very different) the 70k starter home would be fully remodeled (the fixers are 40K). Without food stamps and wic, and a lot of luck, you could survive on that here without assistance. I had a few years where I made slightly more than that for a 2 person household but had $6,000 in daycare expenses.

Except at that income you wouldn't get the full food stamp allowance; the average benefit for a family with more than $1000 in income is $159/mo and 22K is a lot more than $1000/mo even after allowable deductions (IIRC, the formula is 50¢ lost for every extra $1 of income). So even on a very frugal plan you'd have to spend some portion of your remaining income on groceries. Figure at least $25/week for OOP groceries and that's $1300/year.

Then you have utilities. We average about $300/mo for the essentials - heat, electric, and water/sewer. Add in a phone and you're at $4000/year.

So now you're down to $5850 without taking into account gas or maintenance for the car, medical premiums/co-pays, OTC meds or other uncovered medical/optical/dental expenses, clothing, home and car repairs, or anything else that may come up. It can be done but only conditionally - the minute something goes wrong, even something relatively minor/routine like an appliance going kaput or a car needing a major repair, it all falls apart.

 

[ilovemk76]

Actually many did. Now a lot of them were not qualified because a lot of the jobs in ND were in the petroleum industry and were for specific tradesman but those that did think they qualified are pursing them.
Makes no sense to give them bus tickets if they don't have the qualifications for the job now does it? they'd just be stuck in North Dakota. One company we research Invotech was definitely hiring but they wanted Electrical engineers, mechanical engineers, chemist and refinery operators. Sorry but we don't get many electrical engineers rolling through our food bank.

As for money for bus tickets, no we do not randomly give out money (actually we don't give out cash at all) for folks to hop and bus and hope they get a job. remember a lot of that information from that thread was very general, I did contact one or two people who specifically said their company was hiring but if you read the majority of answers were retail jobs.

My church is first and foremost a church so we operate on donations of time and money. For example I'm a Chemist by trade but I pretty much function as a social worker and researcher because as a volunteer they can't be chosing and try to use what ever talent we get.

Yes we keep giving them food because unlike you, we believe it's acutally best to feed people and try to assist them also. The few people who wander in that have come across with the "throw them into the streets and they will learn to "fish" method have not learned to fish instead turned to prostitution and selling drugs to survive. Oh yeah that was helpful. throwing people into the streets has yet to magically make them some how find a job and food.

Yes we have given many interview suits, we hold annual clothing drives not only for kids but for adults returning to the work force.
We have classes on how to resume write and how to go on interviews.
We assist them in finding low cost child care
We partnered with the two local community colleges to try and get low cost job training in technical fields that can be accomplished quickly.
Next year we are trying to hire 2 state life coaches. We plan on offering a class on life skills, like good grocery store choices, planning meals things like that.

About the only thing we don't do is deal with folks who are on drugs or run an overnight shelter. Those two areas have different certification and state requirements.

Contrary to what you think, these people are not sitting at home waiting for a check that comes into the mail. Right now almost every class, seminar and information session is packed to the gills. I'm generally there 3 evenings a week for 2-3 hours and I can say I've yet to met one of these so called people who are trying to get a welfare check and go to disneyworld and not one person that I know of that has signed up for food assistance is eating lobster tails and steak like they seem to do here on the dis. I could be hanging out at the wrong grocery store though.

If you read the thread, I do believe I mentioned that most were working up until this recession and most were pretty much willing to do any job. Are we going to encourage some one to move from NJ to North dakota to work in a $4/hour convenience store. NO.

Bold - That was NOT what I said and you are just being rude because you only what to lecture but not really change a life.

Our Church does give out money when the need is money.

So why are they not taking a retail job? Is it better to have no job than a retail job?

So tell us what they do all day. I know what I did all day when I was unemployed in the past. There is lots of free time and then you get a check. I had time to watch TV, read books, clean the house from top to bottom, volunteer, visit others, go shopping for stuff we needed, babysat for others, trimmed my landscape, mowed the lawn and put in way more applications than was required by unemployment. All this and dinner was done before DH got home from work.

A one-way bus ticket with no housing or assurance of a job at the other end isn't teaching anything. It is trading poverty in one place for poverty and homelessness in another.

Obviously, but not for two here, they would have to have a job and a place to stay too. That was implied. She did start a thread about where are all the jobs and then just told each person why that would not work for her poor she helps. Sound familiar? Happens all the time on the DIS.

 

[ilovemk76]

I'm always sort of amazed at this idea that welfare monies are so easy to get.

Several years ago we (family of 3) found ourselves without any health insurance and then on top of it, a very short period of time where dh and I had at first no income and then a miniscule income. (Think family of three surviving on $8/hr job.)

So anyway. There we were, famiy of 3 (dh, me, and toddler-aged daughter), with no income and no health insurance, with dh and I both having pre-existing conditions.

We applied for state health insurance and while dd qualified for the kids' program, dh and I did not qualify for any kind of Medicaid.

We were told by the state that we could qualify if we emptied dh's 401k, which had a few thousand dollars in it. (Like under $5 K.)

Now, given that we weren't of the mindset that we'd take govt money forever, we knew we would work again and keep trying to find livable jobs, we did not want to empty the 401K. We knew we'd need retirement money way in the future and we didn't want to empty the tiny bit we'd saved towards retirement just to qualify for state health insurance now. It felt like sabotaging our future just to avert a present but temporary crisis.

So we just went uninsured.

Shortly after this I got a job (also very low paying but it was a foot in the door to the field I wanted to work in) and then dh got a job in his career field that actually paid okay.... and since that period in our lives it has all gotten better and better, our earnings have increased and our standard of living keeps improving. We're very grateful.

But that experience really opened my eyes to how it's NOT really so easy to get govt health insurance.

As an aside, the field I now work in (after getting my foot in the door back then) is the public mental health field. I am surrounded by people on social security disability, supplemental income, food stamps, and Medicaid and Medicare.

I've yet to meet ONE who drives a fancy car or goes out to eat or wears purchased-new-at-Macy's clothes. Many folks lived in group homes or personal care homes. Some in subsidized (Section 8) housing.

The folks who lived in personal care homes surrendered all monies to the home as payment, all except $60 per month that they were allowed to keep. That $60 / month had to cover everything else in their lives beyond what the personal care home provided. There was absolutely no one driving any car of any type in those homes, buying cell phones, or going out to eat. Can't afford any of that on $60 / month. (The personal care home allowance in PA has been increased since then.)

Of the folks in subsidized housing, I knew one who owned a car. An old beater with no loan on it and he was considering dumping it because it was difficult for him to afford the auto insurance, even though it was the only way he had to get from the rural town we were located two counties over to see his family.

Of course a bunch of people didn't own cars because their licenses were revoked by their psychiatrists anyway from the meds.

They all knew which days the church within walking distance offered meals and were all grateful for those meals. They all knew which thrift stores and clothing closets to go to for decent clothes. When winter would roll around they'd check back at the clothing closet regularly to try to score a winter coat.

This was when I worked in direct care.

Eventually I moved onto a more statewide systems advocacy type of position. I've spent the last four years helping the state further develop and implement a brand new direct-care service that helps people with mental illness who've been on Medicaid, Medicare, and SSDI go back to work helping others learn from their own experience about how to recover and NOT live life as "mental health patient" forever dependent on the system.

So now I'm still surrounded by folks who've received govt services much of their lives, only most of these folks are going back to work and learning that they can work despite their mental health challenges. (Something that many of them were told by doctors they'd never be able to do.) A number of folks have been able to get off all govt assistance while at the same time helping the people they serve "learn how to fish for themselves" also (to use the phrase in this thread).

Anyway. So I realize I work with and am surrounded by a very specific segment of the population that uses govt services--the mental health population. But my experience with folks in this group has never been one of people using the govt to subsidize a fancy lifestyle.

And I wish I could find the report but can't right now, but... when you look at where govt entitlement spending really goes, it's not the proverbial "welfare queen" who keeps "popping out kids" (so demeaning) to get a bigger check. In fact the majority of spending for govt welfare programs is taken up by the programs and benefits for SENIORS.

This is a great example of what is wrong with the current system. Rather than helping for a short time, they wanted to make you dependent on them by using up all of your personal assets. That $5K was far more valuable as in your retirement account than being taken out with penalties to pay for health insurance. A better plan would be to offer the insurance for a period of time and then you could repay a % of what the insurance cost once you had a job and a certain time had elapsed.

 

[eliza61]

Bold - That was NOT what I said and you are just being rude because you only what to lecture but not really change a life.

Our Church does give out money when the need is money.

So why are they not taking a retail job? Is it better to have no job than a retail job?

So tell us what they do all day. I know what I did all day when I was unemployed in the past. There is lots of free time and then you get a check. I had time to watch TV, read books, clean the house from top to bottom, volunteer, visit others, go shopping for stuff we needed, babysat for others, trimmed my landscape, mowed the lawn and put in way more applications than was required by unemployment. All this and dinner was done before DH got home from work.


.

I never said they don't take retail jobs, I said we would not advise them to move 2000 miles away to work in walmart at 8 bucks an hour. That would still leave them with food stamps and at food shelter. That would be a waste of money. They can and do do that in South Jersey. it's not one or the other. They can work odd jobs and still need food stamps or other assistance. It's called the "working" poor. Many of them do "hussle" and still need the assistance of a food bank, many of them are recently unemployed and trying to find work that will stop letting them be 'working" poor. The object is to do better (or that's at least our objective) moving to SD from NJ to work walmart (just using the martworld as an example) would definitely no accomplish that.

As for what they do during the day, I guess they do the same thing you do. They get up look for a job, put in way more applications than required by unemployment, knock on doors, and then eat dinner or fix dinner if their spouse work? Some of them have part time jobs, many have menial jobs.

What does that have to do with the tea in china? and how the heck would you know if I change a life or not?

you asked a question. Yes we do give out food, no we as a general rule do not hand out cash. that's how our food bank works. Is there a rule that says there are specific steps to "changing" a life?

Im not being rude, you seem to have these "rules" and 'stereotype" of what a person who needs public assistance is like. I gather that from the question of "what they do all day" as if to say they are lazing around not doing any thing. If that is not what you are implying then my bad. its a very common dis view of the poor. but as I say continually many aspect of the dis in no way reflect real life.
I'm here to give another view.

 

[eliza61]

Bold - That was NOT what I said and you are just being rude because you only what to lecture but not really change a life.

Our Church does give out money when the need is money.

So why are they not taking a retail job? Is it better to have no job than a retail job?

So tell us what they do all day. I know what I did all day when I was unemployed in the past. There is lots of free time and then you get a check. I had time to watch TV, read books, clean the house from top to bottom, volunteer, visit others, go shopping for stuff we needed, babysat for others, trimmed my landscape, mowed the lawn and put in way more applications than was required by unemployment. All this and dinner was done before DH got home from work.




Obviously, but not for two here, they would have to have a job and a place to stay too. That was implied. She did start a thread about where are all the jobs and then just told each person why that would not work for her poor she helps. Sound familiar? Happens all the time on the DIS.

Oh I'm sorry, you must have missed the part where I said that they men who QUALIFIED for the jobs were persuing them. Yeah, selective reading happens here on the dis alot too.

 

[eliza61]

Just to clear up my other post.

• Yes, some of the people who come to our outreach services are pursuing jobs else where, specifically in North dakota. I believe I said that originally. selective reading is also a dis trait.
• Unfortunately many of the leads that were posted (and the posters admitted ot them) were for very specific qualifications. That is a very big problem all over.
• No, my church does not give out cash. we don't have it to give. we offer more "services".
• I myself do not ask what they do with their days. I guess you are assuming that they are lazying away their days. I got that assumption from you posting a detail of what you did. I really do not understand how that is relevant to any thing but thanks for the information.
• Not sure how you would know whether or not I change anyones life but I like to think by volunteering with those less fortunate I am contributing.
• No, I would not send anyone from New Jersey to North dakota for a job at walmart. Sorry that defies logic to me to simply send them to another state to end up just as poor, probably poorer because they need money to move, to end up on another states welfare rolls.

We are not a federal agent so no one has to check in or come by a certain number of hours. Clients sign up for our services so they are pretty motivated in the first place or they would not sign up. we do not report to any agency and their public assistance is in no way tied into our services. We are a religious organization.

 

[NLD]

This is a great example of what is wrong with the current system. Rather than helping for a short time, they wanted to make you dependent on them by using up all of your personal assets.

I agree it's an example of something wrong with the current system.

Where I disagree is with the assumption that the state of Pennsylvania wanted us to be dependent on the state.

I don't know why the rules are set up that way, but I suspect it has a lot more to do with the politics of justifying government spending. I suspect a lot of folks would not be happy if people could get state health insurance while still holding onto personal assets. They'd figure it was our responsibility to drain every asset we had before asking the government for help.

Look how many people here are upset that some folks who get govt benefits also have cell phones or whatever. The thinking seems to be that you should be completly destitute if you accept a dime from the govt.

But the real world is complicated and doesn't always operate according to those ideal principles. There are reasons someone getting govt assistance might need a cell phone (job hunting, cheaper than a land line). There were reasons we didn't want to drain our 401K but were still asking for govt health insurance (didn't figure we'd be on the state health insurance long and therefore didn't want to dissolve our retirement savings, but still asked for the healthcare coverage because it was in part expensive medications that allowed us to BE healthy enough to work).

It's just not a black-and-white world. It's not as simple as "the state WANTS people dependent on them" (did you read the part where I've been working with the state on a program that is seeing success in getting people off the disablity rolls?). It's also not as simple as "the poor aren't even trying to fish for themselves."

It's all complicated.

 

[ilovemk76]

I agree it's an example of something wrong with the current system.

Where I disagree is with the assumption that the state of Pennsylvania wanted us to be dependent on the state.

I don't know why the rules are set up that way, but I suspect it has a lot more to do with the politics of justifying government spending. I suspect a lot of folks would not be happy if people could get state health insurance while still holding onto personal assets. They'd figure it was our responsibility to drain every asset we had before asking the government for help.

Look how many people here are upset that some folks who get govt benefits also have cell phones or whatever. The thinking seems to be that you should be completly destitute if you accept a dime from the govt.

But the real world is complicated and doesn't always operate according to those ideal principles. There are reasons someone getting govt assistance might need a cell phone (job hunting, cheaper than a land line). There were reasons we didn't want to drain our 401K but were still asking for govt health insurance (didn't figure we'd be on the state health insurance long and therefore didn't want to dissolve our retirement savings, but still asked for the healthcare coverage because it was in part expensive medications that allowed us to BE healthy enough to work).

It's just not a black-and-white world. It's not as simple as "the state WANTS people dependent on them" (did you read the part where I've been working with the state on a program that is seeing success in getting people off the disablity rolls?). It's also not as simple as "the poor aren't even trying to fish for themselves."

It's all complicated.

Want was not the best word. Make was what I meant.

I am all for programs where they helpo you get off of some or all of your dependence. The problem is they are few and far between. We need all programs to be this way, except for those who have handicaps that are insurmountable. Mental illness is usually treatable with the right medicine. The state needs to get them the medical help to get the right medicine. They can then hold down a job. The state may need to hep with the cost of the meds but that is cheaper than supporting them.

 

[crisi]

I probably should have gone on with more numbers but I was on my lunch break and short on time. You are right, the stars have to align just right. There are some variables, like some of the jobs available are work at home. They pay for your PC and internet. You have a yard and could grow edibles. In this area (and I know it is very different) the 70k starter home would be fully remodeled (the fixers are 40K). Without food stamps and wic, and a lot of luck, you could survive on that here without assistance. I had a few years where I made slightly more than that for a 2 person household but had $6,000 in daycare expenses.

I own a home in a working class neighborhood in South Minneapolis. It isn't much of a house - one bedroom, no air conditioning. The neighborhood is borderline. The mortgage on it is $960 a month, taxes and insurance another $250 and utilities about another $250. So somewhere around $1500 a month for a house that wouldn't fit more than two people - or $18k a year. When I bought it (summer before last - so after the bulk of the housing market crash) the roof was new and the furnace was new, but I've still put $2k into repairs - plumbing mostly, but I needed a little electrical work done. Minneapolis isn't a high cost of living area, either - compared to the coasts.

Around here, if you are poor ($22k a year) you pretty much would have to rent. Which is part of the challenge of the poor - you can't build assets. A little more money (being in the low income part of the scale) and you can start to build assets - granted a tiny 100 year old house isn't much of an asset, but you won't be paying rent for eternity.

(I don't live in that house and the last time I tried to make ends meet on $22k a year was 1990. I suspect its harder now than it was then - then it wasn't easy, my parents paid for a root canal and I couldn't afford a car).

 

[NLD]

Want was not the best word. Make was what I meant.

I am all for programs where they helpo you get off of some or all of your dependence. The problem is they are few and far between. We need all programs to be this way, except for those who have handicaps that are insurmountable. Mental illness is usually treatable with the right medicine. The state needs to get them the medical help to get the right medicine. They can then hold down a job. The state may need to hep with the cost of the meds but that is cheaper than supporting them.

Thanks for the clarification on the "want" vs. "make." That does make a difference.

As for mental illness... this is off topic, but ironically in a lot of cases it's the medications that disable folks so badly they can't work!

And for this I place the blame on the privatized pharmaceutical industry.

When you are prescribed 6 different psychotropics at the same time you're lucky if you can stay awake 6 hours in a day. You're also lucky if you don't get your driver's license revoked.

But Big Pharma had made nice $$ off convincing the American public that it makes sense to prescribe Risperdal for everything from schizophrenia to bipolar to borderline personality to ADHD to depression.

And then when the Risperdal makes you too sleepy to accomplish anything in life (antipsychotics are really just tranquilizers) it then makes sense to prescribe a stimulant and then when you can't sleep, here, have an Ambien, and now that your blood pressure is through the roof and you gained 200 pounds from the Risperdal, here, have some blood pressure meds, and now you're anxious in public b/c you don't feel good about yourself with all this weight so hey, let's add a benzo and you know what, the Prozac will help with those sad feelings....

It. is. a. mess.

And not all the blame can be placed on either system (private or public). We're in the mess we are today because neither system has worked. Disability rates for mental illness (rates, so percentage of population) have INCREASED since the beginning of the drug era.

I think they need to throw it all out and start over.