'Dismal' prospects: 1 in 2 Americans are now poor or low income

[mrsklamc]

I volunteer with the working poor and unemployed at my church. \
Yes, we don't live in huts and we are not living like the poor folks in Ethiopia but I have to wonder, is that now some sort of standard we are aspiring to before we solve any of our problems? Are we really saying we want children to have bloated stomaches and flies in their eyes before we deal with childhood hunger or food insecurity? why do we have a rush to the bottom?
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I work with the food pantry as well, and no I don't go around judging them. You can TELL that it doesn't occur to them. My point is rather that we need to invest in educating young people so they CAN think this way-oh and stop smoking too as that's where a ton of cash goes in 90% of the families we help. Many of them grew up in a lifestyle of government/charity support and think it's normal, and we can't continue to support that indefinitely as a society- esp. as most of these families have many children.

We're also not saying that we have to be in Ethiopia like conditions but rather that it's ridiculous to refer to people with big screen TVs, xboxes, and air conditioning as living in poverty. I read a news article the other day about a man who had been to a casino, won $10,000, and was robbed of it in the parking lot of his government subsidized apartment. His son was railing against the government because the security cameras in the building weren't working - completely oblivious to how ridiculous it was for his father to be at the casino to begin with.

 

[crisi]

Part of it comes down to expectations though. I'm not at all saying this is the case with your friend,(or with any specific case study someone is probably going to offer to prove me wrong) but statistically most single moms at this point in our country were not married. A lot of others were married but the guys turned out to be jerks. Now sometimes people will surprise you but for the most part it you can tell by a guy's character if he's going to man up and be a good dad or not.

And my point after saying all that is that if you choose to be a single mom, or to make a baby with a guy who is useless, you have to have a DARN good job if you think you're going to have a middle class lifestyle.

That's nice and all and its something to comfort ourselves with in our superiority - "I picked a guy to marry that is still around 15 years later." But what if she was married, but wanted to stay home with her kids and her husband only made $35k? Or they worked two just over minimum wage jobs full time? Or he lost his job in 2008 and the income is mostly hers - he's worked here and there, but never long and never full time, despite not being a lazy bum.

My cousin is there. Her two children are by the same father who still lives with them, but he hasn't worked full time since 2008. The income is hers. He's a hard worker, he's been stringing together odd jobs (he's hoping for snow, when it snows he can make a few hundred shoveling and plowing, but there hasn't been much here and no one needs their lawns mowed right now), Her income is pretty good, probably right around that $45k. But one income, two little kids - its tough.

 

[marie1203]

I've seen this headline multiple times and it just bugs me. It defines "low income" as $45,000 of household income or less. NY or LA, sure, low income. Lots of places- very doable if you don't think you need a large screen TV, two cars, and a huge house, and every plastic thing toys r' us can sell you.

The version of it I read profiled a girl who got pregnant at 17 and is 18 now. She and her BF and kid live in (horrors!) an apartment and combined bring in like $44k. What did you think was going to happen when you got pregnant at 17 and had no education? You make do with one car, you work opposite shifts so you don't have to pay for childcare, and you use the Pell Grant you are eligible for to go to college- probably part time. You cancel the cable. I'm sure they are on medicaid and food stamps so that wage should be livable.

I work with the poor (in fact our Christmas giveaway is this morning) and most of them have nicer newer cars than the workers, fancy manicures, big screen TVs. Of course there are people who legitimately down on their luck right now, but there is a whole class of people who feel entitled to a lifestyle they can't afford- and they truly don't understand. They think they are getting the raw end of the deal because they don't understand that they don't earn an income that means they should own a home. Apartments don't occur- they think a house is something everyone has. Older model cars, no cable- just doesn't dawn on them.

And "poverty" for most in this country is far different from ACTUAL poverty. Living in a 4X4 hut built with scraps, where everyone throws their trash in the street, and there is NO chance to make money or get a job or have medical care- that's poverty.

I agree 100%. What we consider here the middle class is luxury in other places. It is because we live in a consumer society were everyone has the latest phones, tv, etc. We have the luxury to define "poor" the way we do. In some places people are lucky if they make $1200 a year. The problem is that we feel entitle to a certain lifestyle that some can't afford and they are not willing to cut back.

 

[mrsklamc]

But what if she was married, but wanted to stay home with her kids and her husband only made $35k? Or they worked two just over minimum wage jobs full time? Or he lost his job in 2008 and the income is mostly hers - he's worked here and there, but never long and never full time, despite not being a lazy bum.

It's not about superiority.As I specifically stated in my post, there is a percentage of the population that what I said applies to, and that I wasn't referring to whatever case study someone was going to bring up to try to prove me wrong.

As for "what if she wants to stay home and her husband only makes 35k" well, assuming she hasn't lost her job, that's a decision they have to make. But they shouldn't act like society has wronged them somehow because they CHOSE to live on one salary.

 

[BoardWalkBelle]

I would love to earn 45K and be called "poor".. I work full time and earn around 20k per yr, ill take take that 45K!

 

[Acklander]

It's not just the 1 in 2 families that's the issue. It's also that we, as a society have fallen. It used to be that the American standard was the one every other country aspired to. Now, we trail way behind in education, healthcare, standard of living and so on. Every year we drop further and further down the list. I find this very disturbing. And the gap between the few haves grows by leaps and bounds, while the middle class/working class is stagnant income wise, but expenses keep growing. The problem isn't that someone has a nice phone or a flat screen tv. It's that the cost of things like education and healthcare that go up drastically every year.

 

[Acklander]

I would love to earn 45K and be called "poor".. I work full time and earn around 20k per yr, ill take take that 45K!

That's a household income, not an individual income. So, if you have 2 people working full time and earning at total of 45k before taxes. From that, you need to subtract the cost of daycare, health insurance, housing, utilities, transportation, groceries, etc.... It doesn't leave much. You'd be one illness away from financial disaster.

 

[Colleen27]

I too read that article and was hoping for more substance. Such as families who are really in a bind. Not teenage parents who expect more of a lifestyle. Heck, if you ahve unprotected sex and get pregnant and lack a college education then this is what you get. Yes this was rude of me to say, but I am tired of reading/hearing about teems/early 20 sometings complaining that they don't ahve "more" when they invested in an education or decent careers.

I get tired of reading the notion that college is a solution that can work for everyone. The fact is, we're already turning out more college grads than jobs that require degrees. What has changed about our society is the fairly recent notion that an honest day's work has no inherent value; wages have been stagnant or declining for millions upon millions of jobs across most unskilled/semi-skilled professions at the same time the costs of essentials (particularly housing, medical care, energy, and education) have skyrocketed.

The fact that 45K was a good living when you were young doesn't much matter in today's world when it takes 1/4 of that just to maintain health insurance and another 1/4 to provide modest housing.

Interestingly enough I just got finish watching "A christmas Carol" and Scrooge yells.

Are there no prisons? Are there no workhouses?

'Many can't go there; and many would rather die.'

'If they would rather die,' said Scrooge, 'they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population."

I don't think anyone wakes up and says "I think I'll be poor for the rest of my life". so in this season of Christ, I think I'll pray that the millions of Americans who find themselves in a bad way, find the tools and get the assistance they need to help them get a hold onto the path of doing better.

 

[Muushka]

Poverty.

My definition:

No car
No phone (cell or otherwise)
No TV
Certainly no cable
No airconditioning
Not enough to eat
2 different skirts and 2 different blouses, rotated carefully

Nevermind no Disney, no vacation anywhere, no toys, cold house in winter, hot in summer.

That was my childhood. I would not wish it on anyone, but it sure did make me not want to continue that path I was on!

Edited to add that I really do not think any child should be brought up like this. But the definition of poverty sure has changed through the years.

 

[Acklander]

Poverty.

My definition:

No car
No phone (cell or otherwise)
No TV
Certainly no cable
No airconditioning
Not enough to eat
2 different skirts and 2 different blouses, rotated careful
That was my childhood.

But the definition of poverty sure has changed through the years.

It depends - if your family lives in a motel room, you're probably going to have a tv and maybe air. But your probably not going to have health insurance or a kitchen to cook in. Also, If you're working poor, you'll probably have a phone so your boss can get a hold of you and enough gas to get to work, but not have enough leftover to pay the electric bill. Or maybe you're family is living in a campground, but has groceries for the week.

 

[KennesawNemo]

It's not just the 1 in 2 families that's the issue. It's also that we, as a society have fallen. It used to be that the American standard was the one every other country aspired to. Now, we trail way behind in education, healthcare, standard of living and so on. Every year we drop further and further down the list. I find this very disturbing. And the gap between the few haves grows by leaps and bounds, while the middle class/working class is stagnant income wise, but expenses keep growing. The problem isn't that someone has a nice phone or a flat screen tv. It's that the cost of things like education and healthcare that go up drastically every year.

As someone who comes from a 3rd world country, I was shocked how bad pulic schools are funded in the US. Teachers need to pay for classroom supplies or to rely on parents for donation? It was almost like a joke to me.

 

[MomToOne]

Some people here seem to be confusing "poverty level" with "low income".

Poverty level is defined as the level at which people lack those goods and services commonly taken for granted by members of mainstream society. The poverty level in the US is now defined to be 22,350 for a family of four. I challenge anyone here to survive on that. The aid programs I am familiar with use some percentage of poverty level to determine need (e.g. they need to make lower than 150% of poverty, etc.), not the low income level.

Low income is defined to be anything under 200% of poverty. That's all. It's not a level at which people are expected to not have any possessions, it's just a relative check compared to the poverty level.

What caused all of the discussion this week in the media is that with new poverty level numbers (that were changed to take into account medical, commuting and other living costs that weren't properly accounted for before) suddenly nearly half of Americans now fall into the low income category as a side effect. And quite frankly, that's scary. It points out that a large percentage of our population is losing ground financially, not gaining. It's not about big screen TVs or manicures, it's about the relative financial standing of many Americans, which IS getting weaker.

 

[nunzia]

I would love to earn 45K and be called "poor".. I work full time and earn around 20k per yr, ill take take that 45K!

Yep..I have a Bachelors and make 24,600..Dh makes more but together that puts us at about average household..we could make it on either salary. I don't think anyone bickers that, in some areas especially, you might struggle and not have that many niceties at 45K but that is a far cry from what poverty used to and still should mean. I guess if you call someone needy long enough they believe it and it grows that entitlement mindset.
I believe in helping the truly needy..and I believe just as strongly not to enable those who continue to use the system. I'd much rather help someone be self reliant than encourage them to be dependent.

 

[Swan4Me]

http://slatest.slate.com/posts/2011/12/15/census_1_in_2_americans_are_poor_or_low_income.html

Read this

The earlier report apparently had someone not good at math

Its 33%-or 1 in 3......not 1/2 of Americans

As to the OP's question-WDW stays full-there will always be lots of folks who can drive there and get a deal on rooms etc

I was there in early March-it was crowded

 

[MrsPete]

I'm in the South, which the article says is one of the hardest-hit areas, and I don't see this. I was at Walmart yesterday, and it was insane -- getting up and down the aisles was crazy because the crowds were so heavy. The mall's worse; we don't go there at this time of year because we literally can't get a parking space. My husband and I went out to dinner last Saturday night. Our first-choice restaurant was packed with a 40-minute wait time, so we went to a sports-bar nearby, and we got the last table. At school I see the majority of our teens wearing expensive clothes, a smattering of Coach bags among teens, the vast majority of our juniors/seniors driving cars of their own, and it's a rare high schooler who doesn't have a cell phone.

Clearly, people are spending money. If 50% of us were living in poverty, I think I'd see a different picture.

Yes, yes, this is a spendy time of year, and some of those people are probably over-extending themselves beyond what they should spend . . . but, again, I don't think we can assume that'll account for 50% of the population.

Don't get me wrong: I know of plenty of people who are in need. My oldest volunteered yesterday with a church group, and she came home with some sad stories. Goodwill's absolutely busier than it was a couple years ago. But I don't see 50% of the people around me in need.

I suspect this was lazy reporting. I suspect the person who wrote the article saw that 45K is the median income for Americans (I'm guessing that's true), and he falsely stated that since that's the "middle spot", the people making less must be "in poverty".

 

[shaylahc1]

Ugh stuff like this makes me crazy. I attribute a lot of it to messed up values and poor money management. I don't consider $45K for a family to be "poor"...not by any stretch of the imagination. Especially if they are receiving other incentives like free medical care, WIC or food stamps.

I was talking to my DH the other day about how people nowadays use government services to "upsize" their lifestyles. They get good old Uncle Sam to pay for their rent, heat, health care and food so they can go out there and buy expensive luxuries, and then cry poverty because they can't get anywhere in life. I have a good friend whose child is 15 and had a baby 7 months ago....she is being fully supported by the tax payers. Wasn't I surprised to see she installed Facebook for Android on her phone! A lot of hard working people can't afford an Android phone, yet here we have someone who is living off the government but can afford all these extra "luxuries" because they aren't paying for any of their necessities. It makes me ill.

Our family was making $45K a year when our 3rd daughter was born 10 years ago. We owned a house (albeit, a small one), had 2 cars (older, paid off) and we weren't poor by any stretch of the imagination. Inflation hasn't risen THAT catastrophically in 10 years. I think Americans have become spoiled and don't think they should have to live "like a poor person".....here being poor means someone else is paying for your necessities, because God forbid your deprive yourself of the luxuries in life you deserve

I am worried that our generation of extremely spoiled children are never going to live independently. When I was young it was expected that when you went out into the world as an adult you would start out "poor"---that was normal!!! Now children want the fully paid for college educations (and living expenses) and then want to move straight into their dream home, driving their dream car.....they just can't fathom a world without these "things" (necessities, according to them). But yet they are lazy, and expect everyone else to provide it for them. I weep for our country's future, I really do.

 

[Swan4Me]

I am worried that our generation of extremely spoiled children are never going to live independently. When I was young it was expected that when you went out into the world as an adult you would start out "poor"---that was normal!!! Now children want the fully paid for college educations (and living expenses) and then want to move straight into their dream home, driving their dream car.....they just can't fathom a world without these "things" (necessities, according to them). But yet they are lazy, and expect everyone else to provide it for them. I weep for our country's future, I really do.

I know 2 adults(28 & 38) living at home because they have to have an expensive car

I also love watching "Our First House" on HGTV-their first house has to have granite countertops and the latest appliances. And lordy-if the paint is the wrong color!!!!!!!

 

[MrsPete]

I am worried that our generation of extremely spoiled children are never going to live independently. When I was young it was expected that when you went out into the world as an adult you would start out "poor"---that was normal!!! Now children want the fully paid for college educations (and living expenses) and then want to move straight into their dream home, driving their dream car.....they just can't fathom a world without these "things" (necessities, according to them). But yet they are lazy, and expect everyone else to provide it for them. I weep for our country's future, I really do.

I agree that the concept of "starting at the bottom" has largely fallen by the wayside. I was poor in college, and things were WORSE in my first two years after graduation. I didn't consider it a problem. Of course, I worked towards getting out of that situation, but I considered it a normal phase.

 

[MrsPete]

I also love watching "Our First House" on HGTV-their first house has to have granite countertops and the latest appliances. And lordy-if the paint is the wrong color!!!!!!!

No, that's not the worst! The worst is the first-time buyers who ask, "Is this countertop granite? No? Then it's not good enough for me."

You can't identify it, but you think you have to have it?

 

[crisi]

I know 2 adults(28 & 38) living at home because they have to have an expensive car

I also love watching "Our First House" on HGTV-their first house has to have granite countertops and the latest appliances. And lordy-if the paint is the wrong color!!!!!!!

I don't think that's a problem with the "adults" as much as with their parents. Because my kids aren't living at home at almost 30 and almost 40 so they can afford expensive cars. I'd laugh them out of the house. And at 12 and 13 you could ask them if their Mom and Dad would let them do that and they'd tell you "yeah, right. My parents are selling the house the moment we get into dorms so that we can't move home." And that will fix the "first home" expectation as well - because after living in cockroach infested apartment buildings post college, 40 year old linoleum floors and laminate countertops of your own look good.

But all of this is off topic. Are people spoiled - yes. Do people at low incomes make poor decisions about their money, yes. But so do people above the low income number. Heck, we have a board full of people who go regularly to Disney when their kids are young and are SHOCKED when they have to take out loans for college - every year. And justify it with "well, the memories." But $22,500 a year for a family of four does put you at the poverty level (remember, you won't pay income taxes, but $2k of that is going to get taken in Social Security taxes). Low income is between that and $45,000 - these people aren't poor, but unless they have unusual assets (no mortgage because they paid it off in better times or inherited mom's house, parents who help out), or are masters of frugality, its going to be a struggle to afford the "stuff" of a middle class lifestyle. These are the folks that usually put every penny into staying afloat - when their kids go to college they haven't saved because their hasn't been much to save - when they do manage to save, then the transmission goes out or the roof needs to be replaced.