Discipline Question

[MoniqueU]

I must be weird but I never really expected my 2 year olds to clean up. Also at least she sits in the time out chair. My oldest dear daughter would not do a time out. I once put her in the downstairs bathroom after she pitched such a fit and held the door from the outside, I thought she calmed down but she was really just going through my maeup and trashing it. Last time I did that. Sending her to her room at that age was also not such a good idea because she had to be watched nearly every second to make sure she wasn't getting into something or pulling down stuff from her dressers on top of her.
No offense tot he OP but this is why I never did a home daycare situation, I believe kids are individuals at that young age and didn't want my kids on some ridgid schedule where they had to follow along every little step of the way. I finally found a play oriented preschool that was a perfect fit for my kids and less ridgid.

 

[mookie]

I have 3 kids (5, 2, 18 mos) and cleaning up is always a chore. While I do agree that they cannot get away with that behavior, I also know that it is overwhelming for some children, too. My middle son has some minor special needs, and music always works for him. If you turn it into a game, he thinks it's more fun and is more willing to help. Once he's finished, he sees what he accomplished, and is more proud of himself.

I've set a timer before for my oldest (can you pick up these toys before the timer goes off?) but for my youngest, music works great. I've even sung the "Clean Up" song...and modified it's speed. Sing it really slow, and he picks up the toys in slow motion. Sing it in fast "chipmunk style" and he runs around like a maniac to pick everything up.

If you want to go a step further, offer a reward if the toys are picked up in the time allotted. Or, assign stations (suzy picks up crayons, jimmy picks up books, etc.) and that way each child is responsible for if they earn their reward at the end. If they don't do it, then you also implement the lesson that if you don't participate, you don't get the fun reward, either.

Good luck!

 

[Wishing on a star]

I just realized that I had failed to mention one other thing...

The idea of withholding a two year olds 'blankie' (comfort object)... anything like that related to nap/sleeping... Don't even get me started...

That is all one needs, a two year old child who has not relaxed and slept all day because of such misguided disciplinary measure.

I have never heard anywhere that this was an acceptable form of discipline.

 

[disney1990]

Ummmm, two years old....

Sorry, but at that age, she may simply not have the ability to even know where to begin... where to start... how to remember where everything goes, etc...

My son has a disability that involves both visual-spacial difficulities (seeing and navigating the visual chaos around him...) As well as executive function skills... The ability to know when it is time for what... how to organize... how to prioritize... Where to start with broad expectations. (large in scope, not small and specific... such as put away that book....)

Just hearing the lady at one preschool yell out, very loudly.... "CLEAN UP!!!!" would upset him.

When I read your comments that she seems to be retreating to the time-out spot, I am wondering if she is withdrawing, or is overwhelmed, and is showing anxiety about this 'clean-up time'. It also occurs to me that this clean-up time is probably at the end of what could be a long and overwhelming day in day-care for a two year old.

Most children do not choose to fail. If this is the only big problem that you are having with a little two year old child, then I don't think punishment is the answer.

I would suggest that you try a different approach...
Give this child one, small, specific task.. This will be her specific task for cleanup for the week.
ie: "Can you do one little thing for me... can you put these two dolls in the bin right there... Then you can sit over there...." (the time-out spot that she seems to retreat to)

Set her up for success...
Success sometimes comes in very small increments...

My DD is ADHD. At 2 she was the most hard headed little girl; hum she was a 3, 4, 5, etc. No time out didn't work. I told my husband that I knew what caused child abuse -- children like our daughter. At the time, I watched other children. I told my husband that, if I was the child care provider of our daughter, I would stop watching her. Thankfully, she is now 24, but her ADHD continue to haunt her in everything that she does. It is still a change, but now it is her challenge.

I totally agree with those people that have suggested positive reinforcement, instead of time out.

Maybe this child should be tested for a disability.

 

[perla75]

What do you do when time out doesn't work?

I've been a daycare provider for many years and I can honestly say that I've never run across this situation. I have a two year old that refuses to help clean up. I have always used "time out" in the past and that seemed to work but not with this one. When I say that it's time to clean up, she will run to the time out spot and sit. I have tried just everything that I can think of but nothing is working (talking to her, walking her back over to the toys, hand over hand picking up toys...she's a very smart little girl and as cute as can be ) . This behavior just started about a week ago. I've talked to mom and dad and they said that they have no problem at home and couldn't offer any other suggestions beside what I'm already trying.

So, what do you do when a young child doesn't mind sitting in time out? I'm really trying to nip this in the bud because the other children are starting to rebel at clean up time as well.

Haven't yet read through the responses, but I actually create behavior plans for children for a living, so I may be of help for you. Most important thing to understand is that all behaviors serve a specific function & the consequence you choose should MATCH that function.

If the child is enjoying time-out, it seems like she might be acting out for the purpose of escaping. She wants to escape from the current situation. If this is the case, time-out would be the worst consequence to use because you have just given this little girl what she wants, therefore increasing her tendency to engage in the behavior.

You need to find a different consequence for her & also set up a reward system-i.e. every time she cleans up, she earns a sticker, after X amounts of stickers she gets a treat. If she does not comply and clean up, take away something that she does enjoy (5 minutes of recess, play time, it will be different for different children-but it should be something she values)

Good luck! I'm sure you will figure it out.

 

[ameraumi]

I have a 3.5 yr old girl in my daycare doing the same thing to me, so I can so relate. In my case the parent is having the same issue at home so she welcomes any suggestions I have.

The one thing I do with her when I see her walking around the room instead of picking up the items I assign to her is make everyone else sit and have her pick up the rest. They get to move on to the next thing but K has to wait until she picks up. I have also gone the extra treat route and most of the time it does work.

And, at least here, it is that time of the year where the kids cannot get out as much so they will be pushing more buttons.

 

[Louise-Montreal]

Forget the rewards thing- "high fives" and "good job!" are great rewards. Since everyone is responsible for cleaning out- why don't you leave four toys that Mary has to put away. Everyone has to help and Mary has not helped yet. Put her in the time out until she puts the toys away. If she is willing to sit in time out for 1/2 hour then you have a defiance thing going on- which is something else and needs to be dealt with accordingly. To me defiance is always a sign of anger. What is she angry about? This is a much more difficult thing to deal with.

Do you think she is a defiant stubborn little sweetie or do you just think she has figured out a way to get out of work? To me they are two different problems. The daycare you work at is lucky to have you!!

 

[mookie]

I know it's not fair to punish the other kids in the group, but what about saying something like..."if everybody does not help cleaning up XYZ, then we ALL cannot do ABC."

It sounds really harsh, but it might make the other children in the group push her in the right direction. (Instead of it coming from you.) They, in turn, are also motivated because they know that everyone has to work like a "TEAM" in order to do fun things...so they want her to help out so THEY also get THEIR reward.

Again, I know it sounds a bit harsh. But I did work for students with Behavior difficulties for a while, (granted, they were older) and this worked like a charm. It's sometimes easier for them to accept help from a peer rather than take an order from an adult.

 

[EpcotBeauty]

My DD is ADHD. At 2 she was the most hard headed little girl; hum she was a 3, 4, 5, etc. No time out didn't work. I told my husband that I knew what caused child abuse -- children like our daughter. At the time, I watched other children. I told my husband that, if I was the child care provider of our daughter, I would stop watching her. Thankfully, she is now 24, but her ADHD continue to haunt her in everything that she does. It is still a change, but now it is her challenge.

I totally agree with those people that have suggested positive reinforcement, instead of time out.

Maybe this child should be tested for a disability.

At *2*?!!! Are you kidding? Just because the child doesn't want to clean up, doesn't mean she is disabled. 2 year olds can just be pills and decide on a whim they aren't going to do it. Doesn't mean they have a disability, could just be spoiled or a brat.

 

[Rella Bella]

What do you do when time out doesn't work?

I've been a daycare provider for many years and I can honestly say that I've never run across this situation. I have a two year old that refuses to help clean up. I have always used "time out" in the past and that seemed to work but not with this one. When I say that it's time to clean up, she will run to the time out spot and sit. I have tried just everything that I can think of but nothing is working (talking to her, walking her back over to the toys, hand over hand picking up toys...she's a very smart little girl and as cute as can be ) . This behavior just started about a week ago. I've talked to mom and dad and they said that they have no problem at home and couldn't offer any other suggestions beside what I'm already trying.

So, what do you do when a young child doesn't mind sitting in time out? I'm really trying to nip this in the bud because the other children are starting to rebel at clean up time as well.

Try checking here.

http://www.dwd.com/

This is a website run by two educators who began a daycare known locally as "the daycare that will take the kids who get kicked out".

They have written a couple of books and also had a column in a local monthly publication for years, and also have parenting classes. The large percentage of their information is right there on their website.

 

[bluesaturn]

While I understand everyone's responses to my post... And it is hard to say without actually knowing the child and seeing what is going on...

I continue to wonder if there are some underlying issues...
Sure, a defiant child is a defiant child.
Sometimes little kids want to do their own thing and not do as they are told.
I totally get that!

However, from what I am reading, this child has not been a defiant child, and is only showing this non-cooperative defiant behavior (which seems to be 'retreating', not continuing to play and be disruptive, etc..) in this one particular circumstance.

Why would this one 'clean up time' be the only thing during the week at preschool that she would not 'like' and simply not want to do???? Why not nap-time, art-time, organized circle-game time, etc.???

I do still suspect come kind of underlying issue

You're right, this is not a "defiant" child. This is a child who is being defiant. Why would she be defiant in one area? Because it works. She is being reinforced by the time out. She gets to escape from cleaning up, which is not fun. And clean up time is much different from circle time, art time, etc. She probably finds those more fun and does not want to escape from them.

To test a child for a disability because of one issue seems like an over reaction. I would think that there needs to be a pattern of behavior in a variety of situations and environments. This misbehavior is clearly tied to this one particular situation, and it seems to be occurring because she doesn't want to help clean up and found a way out.

 

[daughtersrus]

Today was a much better day!
It's a beautiful today here so I decided that we would go outside before lunch. My older DD(19yo) only has one class this morning so she was home. If need be, she could take the other two out while I stayed in if she decided not to help.

At first, she balked at the idea of helping to clean up. She started to go to the time out spot but as soon as she heard that we were going to go outside after we were done, she turned around and picked up some blocks without being told. I think that I've hit on something that she really enjoys. I'll have to figure out something else once winter hits.

She was so proud of herself! Once she looked around the room and saw that all of the toys were picked up, she ran to get her coat. She even came back with the coat for one of the other kids.

As for a disability, I doubt it. Her mom is a special ed teacher and besides my own DD, I've had a few other children receive EI services in my home. I think that she just doesn't want to clean.

 

[friendofgusgus]

Today was a much better day!

So glad to hear this! Hooray!

 

[Wishing on a star]

At first, she balked at the idea of helping to clean up. She started to go to the time out spot but as soon as she heard that we were going to go outside after we were done, she turned around and picked up some blocks without being told.
.......
As for a disability, I doubt it. Her mom is a special ed teacher and besides my own DD, I've had a few other children receive EI services in my home. I think that she just doesn't want to clean.

Great!!!
Then she can be willing to try to cooperate...
(As we would assume by her ability to cooperate at other times)

PS: to other posters.. I have NEVER said that a little two year old child should be tested for disabilities. In fact, my view was that the OP was making too big of a deal about a little two year old who simply did not behave 'perfectly' all the time, at every time of day... I was truly baffled at why the OP, or anyone else who did recommend 'testing', would take this little clean-up situation so darned seriously... IMHO, My two year old would never be placed in situation where the expectations seem to be so demanding, and any little two-year-old discression is cause for such undue concern and possible punishment.

The child is two years old...
The child, like any child, is at their own developmental level.
The child, like any child, may need some encouragement and instruction.
And, even if this encouragement and instruction do not work, because of some 'possible' disability... what the child needs is understanding.... When a child 'withdraws' there is a reason.

PS: what kind of SPED teacher (ie: intelligent, informed, caring...) would think that withholding a blanket from a two year old is a preferred form of discipline to suggest?????

 

[Disney Doll]

I just realized that I had failed to mention one other thing...

The idea of withholding a two year olds 'blankie' (comfort object)... anything like that related to nap/sleeping... Don't even get me started...

That is all one needs, a two year old child who has not relaxed and slept all day because of such misguided disciplinary measure.

I have never heard anywhere that this was an acceptable form of discipline.

Then you never met my mother.
It's quite simple and it's really not anything akin to waterboarding.

Child likes blankie.
Child wants what she likes.
Child has to do what grown up wants in order to get what she likes.

The adult version of this is:
Adult likes pay raises.
Adult wants what she likes.
Adult has to do what boss wants (meet employment goals) to get what she wants (pay raises).

It's never too young to start teaching the actions/consequences thing.

 

[Wishing on a star]

disney doll, with all due respect...
I do not put any stock into what a person on an internet board posts about their mother.

That does not change the reality.

I am not speaking from what my mother or your mother, or what any other mother may have 'believed' or done...

I have been exposed to a lot of research and training regarding young children, thru things like foster-adoption, special needs issues, etc....

I stand by my post...
Withholding a 'comfort object' from a young child is simply not a recommended form of discipline according to anything or anyone that I have ever encountered.

I will just, once again, summarize my view... This is a little two year old... This child does not need to be labeled as 'defiant' or 'disabled' or any thing. The very thought that a two year old who occasionally is not perfectly behaved and accomodating is considered to be a 'problem' and who needs some kind of 'label' or 'intervention' is just inconceiveable to me.

 

[daughtersrus]

PS: what kind of SPED teacher (ie: intelligent, informed, caring...) would think that withholding a blanket from a two year old is a preferred form of discipline to suggest?????

I'm not sure if you're really looking for an answer or criticizing the mother's choice.
So, I will say that this child is not attached to any particular blanket at all. She will nap with or without it. The mom just thought that if she was given a choice of helping to clean up (and yes I do think that a 2yo should be able to pick up some toys) or napping without the blanket, she may be more willing to cooperate.

I do not expect children in my care to behave perfectly. I don't see asking children to follow age appropriate directions as placing them in a demanding situation. Like I said, it is very rare that a child is placed in time out at all. Redirection can be a wonderful tool.

 

[disney1990]

At *2*?!!! Are you kidding? Just because the child doesn't want to clean up, doesn't mean she is disabled. 2 year olds can just be pills and decide on a whim they aren't going to do it. Doesn't mean they have a disability, could just be spoiled or a brat.

No, not kidding. I knew my daughter was ADHD at 2. But, I would not suggest medication for a child at that age, just an understanding of the problem if one did exist.

 

[mhsjax]

I guess I am old fashioned, I don't believe in all of this positive reward stuff and my kids are just fine, Kids these days are being taught to expect something for every little thing that they do, If swear if I hear one more time that I like the way little Suzy is sitting quietly I think I am going to puke. They say that all the time in my kids 2nd grade class. Kids these days are coddled too much, We didn't have as many discipline problems when I was growing up and I am not that old. I wish people would get a backbone when it comes to kids. An for what it is worth, I agree with not allowing her to play with the toys, and as far as her having a learning disability, If I remember correctly, the parents said they didn't have this problem at home.