Discipline Question

[daughtersrus]

What do you do when time out doesn't work?

I've been a daycare provider for many years and I can honestly say that I've never run across this situation. I have a two year old that refuses to help clean up. I have always used "time out" in the past and that seemed to work but not with this one. When I say that it's time to clean up, she will run to the time out spot and sit. I have tried just everything that I can think of but nothing is working (talking to her, walking her back over to the toys, hand over hand picking up toys...she's a very smart little girl and as cute as can be ) . This behavior just started about a week ago. I've talked to mom and dad and they said that they have no problem at home and couldn't offer any other suggestions beside what I'm already trying.

So, what do you do when a young child doesn't mind sitting in time out? I'm really trying to nip this in the bud because the other children are starting to rebel at clean up time as well.

 

[swanmom]

How about turning the tables on her? Rewards (special treat, extra game, stickers, etc.) for the kids who do a good job helping at clean up time. If you don't help, you're left out of the treat. Good luck!

 

[AndyLL]

Remove the toys she won't clean up.

Might have to go as far as give/throw away some.

 

[lovesmurfs]

Wow. Another reason that I give daycare providers so much credit -- I could never do it.

Could you try rewarding those who do pick up? Maybe an extra treat or something for the other kids? Maybe excluding from something she wants would help?

 

[luvmy3]

I would tell her that those who do not pick up, do not get to participate in the playing. If she refuses, then the next time or next day she's there and its time to take that stuff out, do not let her play with those things. I would give her something else she could do quietly by herself, like color.

 

[mamacatnv]

Can't play with the toys.

Standing in the corner for misbehaving rather than time out where she can sit and observe you cleaning up.

 

[friendofgusgus]

Time for consequences that are directly connected to the act of not cleaning up like not allowing that child to move to the next activity until the clean up is done or disallowing play/snack/whatever where she is not willing to clean up afterwards. (She'll be okay for a few days without a snack, but tell mom in advance so she's prepared and ready with a big breakfast those days!)

To make it easier and build in a few math skills at the same time, tell each child that he or she must pick up 3 items before they can move to their next task or that they must each pick up a plate, cup and napkin and throw them away. This will make it more obvious to everyone who is not doing his or her share and easier to keep those children from progressing to the next activity.


Good luck and I wish you patience!

 

[Erin1700]

Ignore her at the present clean up time, but when she is ready to join you for the next activity, walk her back over to where you have left a few toys out, and tell her she can not participate until she cleans them up.

The problem needs to not go away for her. As the other children are cleaning up, pick a few things and say loudly enough for her to ehar "Oh, you can leave that one out, Mary is going to clean that up"
It might take a time or 2 of no fun for her, but she needs to get in her head that in order to do "B" she needs to do "A" first.

With the amount of cleaning up that goes on in day cares, I would be hesitant to reward the children each time. Simple "I love the way Johnny is helping put the toys away!" should be positive feedback enough!

 

[Wishing on a star]

Ummmm, two years old....

Sorry, but at that age, she may simply not have the ability to even know where to begin... where to start... how to remember where everything goes, etc...

My son has a disability that involves both visual-spacial difficulities (seeing and navigating the visual chaos around him...) As well as executive function skills... The ability to know when it is time for what... how to organize... how to prioritize... Where to start with broad expectations. (large in scope, not small and specific... such as put away that book....)

Just hearing the lady at one preschool yell out, very loudly.... "CLEAN UP!!!!" would upset him.

When I read your comments that she seems to be retreating to the time-out spot, I am wondering if she is withdrawing, or is overwhelmed, and is showing anxiety about this 'clean-up time'. It also occurs to me that this clean-up time is probably at the end of what could be a long and overwhelming day in day-care for a two year old.

Most children do not choose to fail. If this is the only big problem that you are having with a little two year old child, then I don't think punishment is the answer.

I would suggest that you try a different approach...
Give this child one, small, specific task.. This will be her specific task for cleanup for the week.
ie: "Can you do one little thing for me... can you put these two dolls in the bin right there... Then you can sit over there...." (the time-out spot that she seems to retreat to)

Set her up for success...
Success sometimes comes in very small increments...

 

[chrisw127]

Ummmm, two year old....

Sorry, but at that age, she may simply not have the ability to even know where to begin... where to start... how to remember where everything goes, etc...

My son has a disability that involves both visual-spacial difficulities (seeing and navigating the visual chaos around him...) As well as executive function skills... The ability to know when it is time for what... how to organize... how to prioritize... Where to start with broad (large in scope, not small and specific... such as put away that book....)

Just hearing the lady at one preschool yell out, very loudly.... "CLEAN UP!!!!" would upset him.

I am wondering if she is withdrawing, or is overwhelmed, and is showing anxiety about this 'clean-up time'. If this is the only big problem that you are having with a little two year old child, then I don't think punishment is the answer.

I would suggest that you try a different approach...
Give this child one, small, specific task..
ie: Can you do one little thing for me... can you put these two dolls in the bin right there... Then you can sit over there.... (the time-out spot that she seems to retreat to)

I think this is a really excellent point. Time outs and other forms of punishment don't work with every child and can actually hurt them. There must be an alternative "punishment" for her that she can understand. I firmly believe there are no "bad" little kids; some just need to be approached differently.

Good luck. I know you're job can be really hard. I'm always amazed at my twins' preschool teacher--she is incredibly patient.

 

[HunnyPots]

Let's put this in perspective: if you were given the choice between, let's say, doing the dishes and going and sitting on a chair which would you chose? I think she's got this whole time out thing figured out - its easier just to sit and wait while the others do the clean up!

When I taught pre-school, I always made clean up a game. we sang a song while cleaning and had races to see who was the fastest picker-upper, that sort of thing. Almost everyone joined in because it was fun and if one or two didn't, I didn't make a big deal out of it as long as they weren't being disruptive.

 

[Camicar]

My dd was, I am convinced, the most stubborn child ever. Also, time outs meant nothing to her. So, I had to find her 'currency' -- what mattered to her and then withhold it until she did as necessary.

 

[mickeyboat]

You have gotten some great responses. The reason time outs work is because they remove a child from a situation where he wants to be and they put a child in a situation where he doesn't want to be. Time outs for cleaning up are not going to work with this child because the onyl punishment to her is that she is separated from everyone else, which she clearly does not mind.

You need to find another currency for her. A reward system of some sort might work her - marbles in a jar or stickers for children who are doing what is asked of them. Not getting a marble or a sticker might work for her.

Good luck.

Denae

ETA - thank you for taking the time and initiative to make things work with this child. That is what makes a child care provider great!

 

[Disney Doll]

How about turning the tables on her? Rewards (special treat, extra game, stickers, etc.) for the kids who do a good job helping at clean up time. If you don't help, you're left out of the treat. Good luck!

This is a great idea!

 

[Disney Doll]

Ummmm, two years old....

Sorry, but at that age, she may simply not have the ability to even know where to begin... where to start... how to remember where everything goes, etc...

My son has a disability that involves both visual-spacial difficulities (seeing and navigating the visual chaos around him...) As well as executive function skills... The ability to know when it is time for what... how to organize... how to prioritize... Where to start with broad expectations. (large in scope, not small and specific... such as put away that book....)

Just hearing the lady at one preschool yell out, very loudly.... "CLEAN UP!!!!" would upset him.

When I read your comments that she seems to be retreating to the time-out spot, I am wondering if she is withdrawing, or is overwhelmed, and is showing anxiety about this 'clean-up time'. It also occurs to me that this clean-up time is probably at the end of what could be a long and overwhelming day in day-care for a two year old.

Most children do not choose to fail. If this is the only big problem that you are having with a little two year old child, then I don't think punishment is the answer.

I would suggest that you try a different approach...
Give this child one, small, specific task.. This will be her specific task for cleanup for the week.
ie: "Can you do one little thing for me... can you put these two dolls in the bin right there... Then you can sit over there...." (the time-out spot that she seems to retreat to)

Set her up for success...
Success sometimes comes in very small increments...

Actually, I think the kid has figured out that if she sits in the time out spot she still doesn't have to clean up. She gets to sit, watch everyone else clean up and then go on to the next activity.

I like the idea of making it really good for everyone who does clean up (special treat) or not allowing her to do the next fun activitiy until she has cleaned up from the last fun activity.

 

[daughtersrus]

Thank you all for your responses. While reading them, I thought that I should clarify a bit.
The clean up time that we are having problems with is right before lunch. She has always participated until recently. I do not yell "Clean Up" but instead tell the children that it's almost lunch time so we need to put the toys away. Everyone helps. I give the younger ones specific jobs. For instance, I will say "J please put the book back on the book shelf". When she is done with that, I will give him another specific job to do. We sing songs (the Barney clean-up song seems to work the best), count the toys that we are putting away, name the blocks by color...

I praise the children and "high fives" are a reward that they look forward to.

I do agree that the time out just isn't working. I've recently started to add a fun activity before lunch (this way I withhold something from the children that don't help right away) but again, she will happily sit by herself. I repeatedly tell her "J you can join us if you will please put XYZ away first" and she always responds "No." She is able to follow directions and understands that A needs to be done before B (before we went outside, I told her that we need to do ABC and then we would get our coats and she complied). Maybe lunch just isn't important to her?

I really am baffled because this problem started recently without any signs leading up to it. Prior to this, I rarely if ever, had to put her in time out (she really is a sweet girl that doesn't hit/push/grab...) but it is used at home and according to mom and dad, is effective for them when she won't listen.

I've got to find what is important to her but so far, I just haven't. Mom said to take her blanket away at nap time but when I tell her that it has to stay downstairs for nap, she says "Ok" and happily goes to nap.

When mom comes, she will help put some toys away but lately is throwing fits because she doesn't want to go home.

 

[Camicar]

I really am baffled because this problem started recently without any signs leading up to it.

She's trying out being stubborn and deciding if it's working for her or not. Your job is not make it NOT work for her. You may need to get creative. For example, in my dd's case she could anticipate the logical consequence and convince herself that the consequence was worth the misbehaving. So I had to not only come up negative consequences, but illogical or unexpected negative consequences she could not anticipate. It was stealth discipline and I'm not lying when I tel you it took a lot of effort. In the end what matters is not if the consequence was logical, but if it was effective.

 

[CJMickeyMouse]

I would have to kind of go old school on this one - it appears you have the support of the parents in that they would like to see her do the right thing. She would have specific things she had to pick up before she got to move on. If it took all day, then it took all day. Sooner or later she will get tired of sitting in time out and comply with your request.

Two years old or not..... IMO lots of kids are smarter than adults give them credit for. She is not scared, she is not confused..... she just does not want to do what she is told.

 

[Wishing on a star]

While I understand everyone's responses to my post... And it is hard to say without actually knowing the child and seeing what is going on...

I continue to wonder if there are some underlying issues...
Sure, a defiant child is a defiant child.
Sometimes little kids want to do their own thing and not do as they are told.
I totally get that!

However, from what I am reading, this child has not been a defiant child, and is only showing this non-cooperative defiant behavior (which seems to be 'retreating', not continuing to play and be disruptive, etc..) in this one particular circumstance.

Why would this one 'clean up time' be the only thing during the week at preschool that she would not 'like' and simply not want to do???? Why not nap-time, art-time, organized circle-game time, etc.???

I do still suspect come kind of underlying issue

 

[Liberty Belle]

I'd make it fun or let her hear you give the other kids praise for picking up. Then, I'd totally ignore her while everyone else is picking up and a few minutes afterwards.

The very next time she does pick up after herself, I'd sit her down right away and tell her how grown up she was acting when she helped pick up.

Of course, you may have already tried this. Some kids can be tricky.