Debate: What happened to civility?

[jrydberg]

Looking at the Clinton years, George W Bush and now the thread on Ronald Reagan's legacy, I must ask... what ever happened to disagreeing respectfully?

One of the great strengths, IMO, of men like Ronald Reagan and Tip O'Neill is that they could argue heatedly about an issue from different sides and when the argument is done, go off and have a drink as friends.

I don't think this has anything to do with whether one is Republican, Democrat, or anywhere in between. While I tended to disagree with President Clinton on many issues, I never understood the hatred of many that opposed him. Likewise with George W. Bush, the level of animosity is astounding.

I guess the point to debate is what caused this shift in American political discussions? Why do politicians and those discussing politics tend not to show any respect for an opposing point of view? Do they think it will somehow weaken their own argument to treat the other side with respect?

 

[minniepumpernickel]

I haven't read that thread. Is it really that bad? Are you just mad because several people disagree?

Don't you read your pm's? I sent you one a while ago.

 

[jrydberg]

It's not that the thread is that bad... though it has its moments Nothing to do with my personal views and how they've been received. Actually, in between the bad stuff, there is some good info there.

Just seems to be a nastier brand of politics these days. Don't get me wrong... there've always been heated political debates. And frankly, I enjoy them.

Heck my mom's a lifelong Democrat and my dad a lifelong Republican. They completely disagree about a large number of issues. But that doesn't mean they don't respect each other. I have friends that span the political spectrum. My friendship with (and respect for) them is not dependent on political views.

 

[missypie]

I've been thinking about that very issue since I heard of Reagan's death. I disagreed very much with many of his views, as did lots of people, but you had to like the man.

There is so much venom in politics these days and I can't seem to trace it objectively. I remember seeing "Impeach Clinton" bumper stickers before the man was even inaugurated! But on the news this morning, they were talking about how the Democratic congress really started using Special Prosecutors when Reagan was in office, which came back to bite them when the Republicans were in office.

I admit that I am full of the venom. Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and Ashcroft make me furious in a way that Reagan and Bush the Elder never did.

I've been pondering who out there - of either party - could have the presence of a Ronald Reagan and put the civility and collegeality back into politics. Maybe McCain?

 

[MelessaG]

Originally posted by missypie
I've been pondering who out there - of either party - could have the presence of a Ronald Reagan and put the civility and collegeality back into politics. Maybe McCain?

I wondered about this all weekend. Reagan's death really helped me realize how nasty the political arena has become in recent years. I didn't agree with everything Clinton did, or what G.W. Bush does now-but I thought the personal attacks on Clinton were unnecessary and I'm tired of all the hatred directed at Pres. Bush too. Unfortunately, I don't think the situation would improve if Kerry were elected. So far, I'm just hoping my ballot next Nov. has a "none of the above" option.

 

[jrydberg]

Kinda reminds me of Brewster's Millions... vote none of the above!

 

[MHopkins2]

Originally posted by missypie
I've been pondering who out there - of either party - could have the presence of a Ronald Reagan and put the civility and collegeality back into politics. Maybe McCain?

Heh. I love me some Senator McCain, but "civility" isn't the first word that comes to mind. (His fire-y-ness is one of the things I love.)

 

[Lanshark]

Heh. I love me some Senator McCain, but "civility" isn't the first word that comes to mind. (His fire-y-ness is one of the things I love.)

I agree. I really like McCain but tact is not his strong suit. I have no problem with attacking someones stance on issues. I do not, however, like the politics of character assasination.

 

[Robinrs]

Civility is a thing of the past, publicly.

People who disagree now have a LOUD voice via the mass media and the anger that sparked the US vs THEM debates are not likely to subside.

People who disagree civilly, like your parents, will never make the news. Squeaky wheels do.

 

[wvrevy]

In my opinion, civility went out the window when, for eight straight years, all we heard was how horrible a person Bill Clinton was, what a crook Hillary Clinton was, how ugly Chelsea Clinton was...and now, with our "great uniter" in the White House, he's pushing policies that couldn't divide America much more if they were specifically designed that way.

At some point, liberals got tired of being called weak by morons too interested in their own wallets to worry about people starving down the street, and have started to respond in kind. Blame Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity and his ilk for upping the level of rhetoric on the national level, and blame the public for not calling them on it soon enough to stop it.

As for McCain....He's one of the VERY few Republican politicians I maintain any respect for at all (actually, one of the few in general, not just repugs). I don't always agree with the man, but at least with him I don't always suspect an alterior motive.

 

[Galahad]

In my opinion, civility went out the window when, for eight straight years, all we heard was how horrible a person Bill Clinton was,

You don't think the incivility of Clinton's campaign against Bush-I made any contribution to the problem?

 

[wvrevy]

Originally posted by Galahad
You don't think the incivility of Clinton's campaign against Bush I made any contribution to the problem?

Honestly ? No, I don't. Why ? Because rough campaigns were hardly new in 1992, now were they ? (Willie Horton ring a bell ?)

People like Karl Rove and other attack dogs (on both sides of the aisle, I'm not that naive) are the reason this country is as divided...and vocally so....as it is.

Again, there ARE no liberal voices as loud (or as obnoxious) as Rush Limbaugh or Sean Hannity...and both wouldn't know civility if it kicked them in their collective groins. Or maybe you could use Ann "If you don't agree with me you're a commie" Coulter as an example ?

 

[Eeyore1954]

I believe civility in politics died when individuals and groups valued the concept of "winning" above public service; when political agendas became more important what would benefit the country; when people began to look for someone to blame for what was wrong instead of looking for a way to fix what was wrong.

Instead of debating issues and policies, politicians practice character assassination and drive-by sound bites. The media has helped polarize people by practicing partisan journalism, instead of fair, balanced reporting.

We've forgotten how to disagree agreeably, how to debate political stands and still remain friends. Today it is ultimately more important to win at any cost than to stand above the fray.

Civility died when we accepted the "us vs. them" mentality, thus separating ourselves from one another and building walls and moats all around America. Today we are rearing an entire generation with this mindset. I'm afraid that civility in politics and maybe even in everyday life may soon be only a nostalgic memory of days gone by.

 

[jrydberg]

morons too interested in their own wallets to worry about people starving down the street

This is precisely what I'm talking about. You disagree with Republican policy, fine. Do you honestly think they and those who support them are actually morons?

I also don't think it particularlly illuminating to point a finger at one side or the other when both seem to freely engage in it and have for years.

I haven't listened to Rush Limbaugh in years, but in my experience, he tended much more towards the sort who would argue stridently about policy, but maintain a good degree of civility. Perhaps that has changed in recent years, but I think it unlikely that the problem stems from him.

 

[Eeyore1954]

Originally posted by wvrevy
Honestly ? No, I don't. Why ? Because rough campaigns were hardly new in 1992, now were they ? (Willie Horton ring a bell ?)

People like Karl Rove and other attack dogs (on both sides of the aisle, I'm not that naive) are the reason this country is as divided...and vocally so....as it is.

Again, there ARE no liberal voices as loud (or as obnoxious) as Rush Limbaugh or Sean Hannity...and both wouldn't know civility if it kicked them in their collective groins. Or maybe you could use Ann "If you don't agree with me you're a commie" Coulter as an example ?

Thanks for maintaining a level of civility and decorum in your posts.

 

[Galahad]

there ARE no liberal voices as loud (or as obnoxious)

Carville isn't loud and obnoxious?

 

[wvrevy]

Originally posted by jrydberg
This is precisely what I'm talking about. You disagree with Republican policy, fine. Do you honestly think they and those who support them are actually morons?

I also don't think it particularlly illuminating to point a finger at one side or the other when both seem to freely engage in it and have for years.

I haven't listened to Rush Limbaugh in years, but in my experience, he tended much more towards the sort who would argue stridently about policy, but maintain a good degree of civility. Perhaps that has changed in recent years, but I think it unlikely that the problem stems from him.

Yes, I disagree with Repuglican policy, but I am not calling all who do agree with it morons, just those that continually attack the liberal left for caring more about the guy down the street than about their own bank balance. (If that makes sense.)

As I believe I said, I do recognize that this goes on in both parties at the national level (anybody that has heard Ted Kennedy's rhetoric would have to be a bit goofy not to recognize that).

I can think of quite a few words to describe Mr. Limbaugh, but "civil" isn't even on the radar And I didn't mean to imply that he was the sole cause of the problem, but all you have to do is listen to people like him, Hannity, or that nutjob Coulter and you'll understand why they draw the kind of hatred they do...and why people that spout the same nonsense often get that hatred directed towards them.

 

[wvrevy]

Originally posted by Eeyore1954
Thanks for maintaining a level of civility and decorum in your posts.

No problem...and hey, thanks for actually addressing the issue at hand instead of trying to be cute and make a funny

 

[wvrevy]

Originally posted by Galahad
Carville isn't loud and obnoxious?

ABSOLUTELY he is (the man is brilliant.....I just don't particularly want to listen to him).....So ? By "loud" I mean "reaching as many people as possible", not "has a high volume to his voice". Rush, Hannity, and co. are available pretty much 24 hours a day via radio and Faux News channel....How often is Carville on ?

 

[AirForceRocks]

Yes, I disagree with Repuglican policy, but I am not calling all who do agree with it morons, just those that continually attack the liberal left for caring more about the guy down the street than about their own bank balance.

Speaking for myself, it's not that I don't care about the guy down the street, it's that I don't think it is the government's job to care more about him than he does about himself and to use my money in the process.

Government has its purposes, but taking from those that produce to give to those that won't produce isn't one of those purposes, IMO.