DEBATE: The Commerce and Business of WDW, and Walt Himself.

[FantasticDisFamily]

As I noted in my original post I'm fairly new to this particular area of the boards. Usually hang out in the cruise area but had some unscheduled time this afternoon between classes and went exploring! I recognized fairly quickly that what I was posting wasn't as long as some but know from teaching online that attention span starts waning and not all is carefully read.

It appears I interpreted part of AV's post as a response to mine when in fact he was replying to your's. I suspect I may continue to participate if this isn't usually a "private party". Just keep in mind that my perspective is as a professor of management/marketing and creativity & innovation. Yes, creativity and innovation are actually taught at the university level these days. And underwater basket weaving it isn't! More like a strenuous aerobic workout! LOL

Deb

 

[FantasticDisFamily]

Also, I agree that Celebration/EPCOT do not meet Walt's original vision. However, both incorporate SOME of the ideas in that vision. Given the climate - political, social, economic - of the times I'm not sure if the EPCOT Walt envisioned was possible. I don't believe it is possible today - although the company is stronger today than it was in the early 80's, even given the devaluation of the stock in recent months.

While ABC was initially looking for programming, definitely Walt saw this as a way to gain both revenue and exposure. Earlier posts commenting on his enthusiasm are right on target. He was able to communicate his vision to his target market through the television show. The public had buy in on that project from the early stages.

There has been much written on Walt and his vision. Some of the older works which one would think might be more accurate as they were written theoretically with greater access to Walt, his writings, musings, and events being covered are often less accurate as folks interviewed and quoted later admitted they softened the edges in deference to Walt and his family.

Although Roy was originally the bean counter in the company, he eventually caught much of his brother's vision and enthusiasm and did his best to pass that through in company culture. I agree with your comment that Walt was reasonably successful in communicating his vision. However, I also harbor the suspiscion that we didn't get all of it because he looked at the world from a vastly different perspective than most of us.

Deb

 

[DisneyKidds]

Deb - the more the merrier . No private parties around here, and while we might have our carpools, we certainly don't have the clique politics that other boards might have . I'm sure we will all look forward to your input and perspective. Too bad those taking courses in business creativity and innovation aren't getting hired by Disney .

I'm not sure if the EPCOT Walt envisioned was possible.

But I bet we all agree that if anyone could have done it, it would have been Walt.

With respect to what has been written about Walt, especially the early stuff, do you have a reading list (I bet Disney must be some part of a curriculum on business creativity and innovation )? I have taken the suggestions of a few others here in a few of the books I have read/am reading (the Bob Thomas bio and Since the World Began) - but I value additional suggestions. I am currently reading 'Inside the Magic Kingdom (Seven Keys to Disney's Success)' and it is rather interesting - but it is all second hand opinion. It does have some great true life anecdotes and MK little known tidbits thought - as well as being an interesting take on what makes Disney, or any business, successful.

 

[Sarangel]

First, FDF: Welcome to our cozy little corner of the DIS! We're always happy to engage in discussion and welcome those who have the inclination to contribute (as well as those who simply read through our somewhat exhaustive discussions). You will find that our rule is "the more the merrier."

As for Walt & WDW, some points:

ABC - ABC was a financial partner in the building of Disneyland (they weren't bought out until 10 years or so after the park was built), and part of the deal Walt & Roy made with ABC was that Walt would put together programming for ABC, who needed new content. Walt, being a pretty sharp cookie, asked ABC if he could talk about the park project and received permission. He also used it to promote 20,000 leagues under the sea and other projects. I'm sure AV has more on this subject, but that's what my reading leads me to believe the situation with Disney & ABC was.

WDW - It's really hard to say what "the Florida Project" would have been if Walt had been able to keep his mitts on it through completion. As it is, we are left with Roy & the Imagineer's interpretation of Walt's initial plans for the Magic Kingdom and it's monorail resorts (everything else showed up later). I recall reading that one of Walt's reasons for wanting the Florida Project to be built was the encroachment of the twadry on Disneyland. I also recall that he had a number of projects in the wings after Disneyland - one of which (a resort in the So. CA mountains never did take off) - so it's hard to say whether he or Roy expected the Florida Project to fund anything. Walt seems to have worried less about where the money was coming from than those who have posted so far have said. He was a visionary, and visions aren't business plans, financial statments or bank loans, they're visions.

Anyway, keep up the good work.

Sarangel

 

[DisneyKidds]

a resort in the So. CA mountains never did take off

As a skier I can only dream about what could have been. Walt actually put some serious effort into building a ski resort. Picked a mountain and all. Alas, I believe environmental and permit issues were the undoing. If only..........................;(.

 

[Sarangel]

First, FDF: Welcome to our cozy little corner of the DIS! We're always happy to engage in discussion and welcome those who have the inclination to contribute (as well as those who simply read through our somewhat exhaustive discussions). You will find that our rule is "the more the merrier."

As for Walt & WDW, some points:

ABC - ABC was a financial partner in the building of Disneyland (they weren't bought out until 10 years or so after the park was built), and part of the deal Walt & Roy made with ABC was that Walt would put together programming for ABC, who needed new content. Walt, being a pretty sharp cookie, asked ABC if he could talk about the park project and received permission. He also used it to promote 20,000 leagues under the sea and other projects. I'm sure AV has more on this subject, but that's what my reading leads me to believe the situation with Disney & ABC was.

WDW - It's really hard to say what "the Florida Project" would have been if Walt had been able to keep his mitts on it through completion. As it is, we are left with Roy & the Imagineer's interpretation of Walt's initial plans for the Magic Kingdom and it's monorail resorts (everything else showed up later). I recall reading that one of Walt's reasons for wanting the Florida Project to be built was the encroachment of the twadry on Disneyland. I also recall that he had a number of projects in the wings after Disneyland - one of which (a resort in the So. CA mountains never did take off) - so it's hard to say whether he or Roy expected the Florida Project to fund anything. Walt seems to have worried less about where the money was coming from than those who have posted so far have said. He was a visionary, and visions aren't business plans, financial statments or bank loans, they're visions.

Anyway, keep up the good work.

Sarangel

 

[Bstanley]

I was watching 'Logan's Run' last night and was reminded of the model for EPCOT that you can see from the WEDWay PeopleMover in Tomorrowland.

One thing for sure (IMHO - what Walt had in his Mind's Eye for The Florida Project would have been much more like the city in Logan's Run than 'Epcot'.

We'll never know whether a 'real' EPCOT would have been successful - but like the last line in my favorite movie (The Wind and The Lion) explains

Is there not one thing in your life that is worth risking everything for?

just the attempt would have been glorious...

 

[FantasticDisFamily]

Thanks for the welcome folks. Having stumbled onto your corner of the boards I'll probably hang around.

DK there is so much written on Disney: some good some not so good - some valuable some not so valuable. The Keys to the Kingdom book is actually a book I have my customer service students read. Although second hand opinion as you note, it does get them THINKING about customer service in different ways.

And actually there isn't much reading about Disney, except in passing, in the creativity and innovation class. The focus of that class is more on exercises and techniques for stimulating creativity. The primary sources being "Leading on the Creative Edge" by Firestein and "Aha!" by Ayan. Of course Walt is mentioned in those.

One book you might find interesting is "The Disney Touch: Disney, ABC, & the Quest for the World's Greatest Media Empire" by Ron Grover. I also have several on Disney management techniques but as I survey my shelves here in the office don't see them - must be on the shelves at home.

Sarangel - thanks for the reminder on the partnership with ABC. Even as I was posting I was checking with one of my colleagues who has also studied Disney intensively and we knew we were forgetting a piece of the puzzle. It happens.

IMHO the Wonderful World of Disney television program was marketing genius. For whatever reason it developed it became part and parcel of the American experience, allowed for promotion of the park, movies (can we say Davy Crockett and coonskin hats?), and so much more. It was one of, if not the first, weekly program to broadcast in color.

Deb

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

WOW!!! How a thread can grow in a short time!! I'm going back to read it all, and by all indications I'll be back!!

In the mean time, at a glance this caught my eye:

Yes, creativity and innovation are actually taught at the university level these days.

Can we get Ei$ner enrolled!! FAST! (It'd have to be a remedial class though. A 101 would be way too advanced!!)

 

[Another Voice]

First, let me add my welcome to Ms. FantasticDisFamily. I have many clients that I’d love to send to a professor of creativity although, sadly, I doubt if any of them can be taught – but no one has ever accused most people in Hollywood of being intelligent. Gee, the “best” in town can’t even look up a Shakespeare quote correctly.


From what I’ve heard and read, I think one of the strongest arcs in Walt Disney’s life was his growing resistance against constraints. Hollywood worked a little differently in those days. For films, a company like Disney first had to sell a movie to a film distributor. Then the distributor had to sell it to theaters. And then the theaters had to sell it to the public. At each level there was someone telling Disney “what the public wants”, and more often than not they tried to shoot down Disney’s plans. Naturally Disney hated this because, basically, Walt really thought he knew better than the suits. And time and time again he was proven correct.

With television, he had a golden opportunity to eliminate all the middlemen and present his shows directly to the public. TV provided him with ultimate freedom and he took full advantage of it. He could make the shows he wanted, show them when he wanted. For the first time ever, he found a business that would give him complete control.

In the mid-1950s all of the big studios were terrified of television and quite literally tried to kill the new medium. Anyone – writer, director, actor – who “crossed over” was finished in movies. And any company that made TV shows was blackballed. This left the networks without the “big name talent” they desperately needed and the means to fulfill the increase demand for product. They were willing to do almost anything for “legitimate” companies and talent to deal with them. And by this time Walt was basically well outside (and above) the Hollywood Studio System. Thanks to revenue from international film distribution (the only studio in Hollywood with significant overseas revenue at the time), merchandise and constant revenue from the seven-year re-release cycle, Walt could flaunt a lot of Hollywood conventions to achieve his own goals.

So what you had was a market pleading for product and only one seller in town. No one has ever accused the Disney brothers of not being clever. The move into television was going to happen; Walt and Roy simply made the networks pay as much as possible for the product. So ‘The Wonderful World of Disney’ wasn’t created specifically to finance Disneyland; the investment in the park was just part of the price ABC paid to get a show. They also picked up a good chunk of ’20,000 Leagues Under the Sea’ (the most expensive movie made to that date) and even ran the commissary on the Studio lot for a while.

Like the Magic Kingdom, television existed for its own merits and for its own purposes. It was not created solely or even mainly to finance another project. I really don’t think Walt ever thought in those terms either. Certainly making a sequel to ‘Snow White’ just for the money would have brought in huge bucks, just as he had offers to build replica Disneylands all over the U.S. and Europe. Walt Disney was always looking for something new to do. He was in business for the joy of it, not to get rich. Those kinds of people can later.

The simple rule of the entertainment industry is that if you present a good show that the audience wants to see – the financial returns will find you. It’s only the bad or unappealing shows that have to work for it.

 

[FantasticDisFamily]

DVC-Landbaron (and anyone else interested) the creativity and innovation course is actually available online. If anyone is interested please PM me and I can direct you to the appropriate links. Folks without a bachelor's degree would need to meet prerequisites, but nearly anyone with a bachelor's degree or more could qualify as a guest student.

As for Ms. Striesand's quote - well her fame has been her voice I believe and not her scholarly pursuits!

Deb

 

[airlarry!]

And let me give my own belated welcome to Prof FDF...I was a bit busy contending with a week without 'e-lek-tricity' due to our most unwelcome visitor, Madame Lili.

May I summarize our position thus far?

There is no certain proof that Uncle Walt's model and Cousin Mike's model even resemble each other. One mined the fertile imaginations of his friends and employees (and his own brain) for new ideas to 'sell' to the consumer, for that was what he created the company for, as an outlet for what he thought the public wanted.

The other has mined the fertile earth of the 'Brand' he inherited, and especially in the last half-decade or so.

Where Walt abhorred a sequel, unless it could stand up in its own rights, Michael never met a sequel he didn't like.

And where Walt took an idea, and then decided to improve upon it (for business purposes? for investment? for expansion? for the need of a creative outlet? Does it matter in the end?) by looking at the California project and expanding it 10 fold into the Florida project, Michael shrunk the goal. Hi$ focus was on doubling the length of stay, and increasing per capita spending, not on creating the next generation of theme park--never mind the rhetoric, look at the actual product and the actual presentation.

I like this thread. It reminds us of that famous quote for those who ignore history. It reminds us that our beloved company got here by following one road, but took the left fork some time ago.

I personally don't believe that the 'good times (are) really over for good' (thanks Merle). The flip side to brand is that while Jeaux Customer may not give a hoot (no offense to anyone here, just using an example) whether K-Mart or Xerox survive other than the people who work there, there are many Jeaux Bluejeans out there who care whether Disney is still Disney...or whether it becomes (stays?) Di$ney.

 

[FantasticDisFamily]

There are numerous excellent lessons to be gleaned from what the Walt Disney Co. has undergone and how it does business - both the positives and the negatives. In response to DisneyKidds inquiry I took a quick glance on my shelves at home between night class last night and heading into campus again this morning.

An additional reading suggestion for those who are interested in another perspective on how the successful approaches from the Disney Co. can be adapted, transferred, utilized in other endeavors I'd suggest the work of Bill Capodagli (see why I had to check the shelf? No way I'd have gotten that spellling right from memory!) and Lynn Jackson. They have written "The Disney Way: Harnessing the management secrets of Disney in your company" and also "The Disney Way Fieldbook: How to Implement Walt Disney's Vision of Dream, Believe, Dare, Do in your own company"

This latter title includes Walt's most deeply held belief in terms of how to strategically shape and move the company. The Dream was absolutely critical - today we call that thinking outside of the box or paradigm breaking. In essence it isn't being afraid to try something different. That different or new thing doesn't always have to be totally unheard of before. When Michael (and I know many of you are not Eisner fans from what you've posted) took over Disney in 1984 his approach was radical for the time - his dream to expand the entire family entertainment business was dreaming. To announce a 10 year plan to expand the theme parks throughout the 1990s in the context of that time was dreaming - remember this was when all the boomers were delaying their families and the US was running full tilt AWAY from "wholesome" activities. It was pretty daring to re-launch the animated movie business.

I agree that over the last several years Disney seems to have lost steam. Maybe it is time for a new visionary? I'm not sure but I don't think that the Dream, Believe, Dare, Do model is dead at Disney - just seems a bit dormant.

Deb

 

[FantasticDisFamily]

There are numerous excellent lessons to be gleaned from what the Walt Disney Co. has undergone and how it does business - both the positives and the negatives. In response to DisneyKidds inquiry I took a quick glance on my shelves at home between night class last night and heading into campus again this morning.

An additional reading suggestion for those who are interested in another perspective on how the successful approaches from the Disney Co. can be adapted, transferred, utilized in other endeavors I'd suggest the work of Bill Capodagli (see why I had to check the shelf? No way I'd have gotten that spellling right from memory!) and Lynn Jackson. They have written "The Disney Way: Harnessing the management secrets of Disney in your company" and also "The Disney Way Fieldbook: How to Implement Walt Disney's Vision of Dream, Believe, Dare, Do in your own company"

This latter title includes Walt's most deeply held belief in terms of how to strategically shape and move the company. The Dream was absolutely critical - today we call that thinking outside of the box or paradigm breaking. In essence it isn't being afraid to try something different. That different or new thing doesn't always have to be totally unheard of before. When Michael (and I know many of you are not Eisner fans from what you've posted) took over Disney in 1984 his approach was radical for the time - his dream to expand the entire family entertainment business was dreaming. To announce a 10 year plan to expand the theme parks throughout the 1990s in the context of that time was dreaming - remember this was when all the boomers were delaying their families and the US was running full tilt AWAY from "wholesome" activities. It was pretty daring to re-launch the animated movie business.

I agree that over the last several years Disney seems to have lost steam. Maybe it is time for a new visionary? I'm not sure - but I don't think that the Dream, Believe, Dare, Do model is dead at Disney - just seems a bit dormant.

Deb

 

[DisneyKidds]

Professor (if I may call you that) - the Fieldbook sounds interesting. Perhaps when I finish the couple of other books I am on now..........thanks.

An interesting thing about the success, and recent downturn, in Disney that I noticed while reading Inside the Magic Kingdom (Seven Keys). While Disney still very much holds true to some of the keys, I could see where recent decisions and actions kind of depart from some of the keys. The book was written in 1996 I believe. It would be interesting to see Connellan's view on Disney as it stands today, especially in relation to his opinion when he wrote the book. For anyone who hasn't read it, it is a very quick and interesting read.

 

[FantasticDisFamily]

DisneyKidds -

You certainly may call me Professor but it isn't necessary. As I work primarily with returning adult students we are generally on a first name basis.

I agree that many of the observations in Keys are less accurate today. I read a recent article regarding the painting of the hitching posts as a for instance - it is no longer attended to as regularly. It is now routine maintenance that happens on approximately a monthly basis.

A recent post on the cruise trip reports discussed this very topic - how the extending of maintenance, cost cutting is making WDW less attractive to repeaters.

From a personal standpoint I went to WDW a year ago with my daughter and another mom & daughter. My daughter & I were repeaters but the others were first timers. They were "in awe" of the attention to detail. But my daughter & I noticed a definite lowering of attention to detail. Not necessarily something one could say - There! That isn't as well cared for but an overall sense. I too would be interested in Connellan's observations.

Deb

 

[DisneyKidds]

............but do they still use 23k gold leaf on the carousel? .

 

[FantasticDisFamily]

Yes, as far as I could tell but didn't look quite as shiny as usual.

Deb

 

[airlarry!]

You certainly may call me Professor but it isn't necessary.

We like nicknames here. I think we've found yours..."The Professor"

But my daughter & I noticed a definite lowering of attention to detail. Not necessarily something one could say - There! That isn't as well cared for but an overall sense

This is what we worry about. Walt's 'business plan' was to impress upon the visitor that she was visiting a world unlike our own where there *is* attention to detail, and the Connellon book (which I read a few years ago) seems to argue that the new Disney embodied that plan.

But is this true? Does the new regime care the same as Walt's people did? It is a generalization to say either way, but I tend to think that there is ample evidence that Cou$in Michael doesn't believe that attention to detail is the key to the Kingdom....unless it is for attention to the bottom line

 

[FantasticDisFamily]

OK, "The Professor" it is - then I will put on my professor's hat and play devil's advocate with you.

Airlarry! said

"I tend to think that there is ample evidence that Cou$in Michael doesn't believe that attention to detail is the key to the Kingdom....unless it is for attention to the bottom line"

However, many of the attractions built under his regime have great attention to detail - did the tree of life have to have bugs carved in up to the very top? Why put liner notes on the CDs in Monster's Inc? With respect to the parks - didn't many of the changes which have been cited as cost cutting (quality cutting)happen under just one head honcho - who has recently been replaced?

Might it not be more accurate to suggest that Eisner believes in attention to detail and Walt's original ideas but has allowed his second in commands to get sloppy?

Your thoughts....

Deb