Debate: Tangible resort Differences

[DisneyKidds]

OK, Mr. Baron – you asked for it, by golly I’m gonna give it to you . Carpel tunnel, here I come .

The touch is an intricate part of the standards. Surely you knew that!!??

But, of course. Exactly – or so I thought. You see, the touch is part of the Show. Someone agreed that some of the “mods” have damned good show. Seems to me there must be ‘touch’ present for someone to be able to make such a statement .

Now before I go on, this confounds me to some extent.

Can you quantify them? Can you list them? Can you account for the price differentials? Because to be quite honest with you I can’t easily do that. I can point to Pop Century and say, “See!? That’s what I’m talking about!” And most people on this board would immediately understand the message I’m trying to convey. Even, I dare say, you!!

I will leave AS/PC out of my discussion. I think they have some Disney touch – but they are nothing compared to the “mods” and “deluxe”. Could Walt have done the economies better – sure, but that is another discussion. So on to my confusion. What are we saying here? I get the lead in about what is at the “mods” that is either not at the “economies”, or is present at the “deluxe”. I’ll give you an earful on that. However, are we getting back to cost and value here? Are you looking for a reason why the “deluxe” should cost more? You say you can’t see it. Does that imply you really don’t see much difference between the “mods” and “deluxe”? If you are, doesn’t that implode all of your arguments? You see, if it all comes down to the money lets talk about the money. However, you question the ‘touch’ that is (not) present in the “mods”, and then apparently contradict yourself when you say you can’t point to differences between the “deluxe” and “mods” that justify the price differential. Wouldn’t ‘Disney touch’ do some of that? HELP! Please clarify. Confused .

So for now I will approach this as follows – in a hopefully logical manner. You ask….

That the moderates do indeed have the Disney “touch”. OK! Fair enough. What are they?

So I will answer that question. Keep in mind that we are exploring the tangible differences between the original hotels and the “mods”. I contend that they meet the standard and very much belong in ‘Disney’. You say the lack Disney touch and are not deserving of the ‘Disney’ moniker. So I will address that, a question which really has nothing to do with what the “economies” do or don’t have, or what the “deluxe” have that justifies a higher price. I will further touch on how these ‘touches’ compare to the only hotels you seem to accept as ‘Disney’ – the CR and Poly. Fair enough? Oh, wait – perhaps you do accept the YC/BC, BW, AKL, and WL as ‘Disney’ with respect to ‘touch’ – but they are all overpriced so they aren’t ‘Disney’. Is that how it goes .

Onward with the Disney touch at the moderates, and why they deserve to be called ‘Disney’.

Story

If anyone thinks the “mods” tell any less of a story than the original hotels they are very much mistaken. Story is an intricate part of Show. Story is a critical part of Disney touch. With that, I submit that story permeates the moderate resorts. The whole premise of each resort, the themed newspapers and maps, the passports, the little neat touches that tell the story that Disney wants to convey. Some people probably don’t even look at them, but trust me they are there and are a somewhat unique Disney touch at these resorts. These items help to set the stage, and invoke the time and place factor. You are not just at a hotel or resort, you are in the old south, or the French Quarter, or the Caribbean, or the desert SW. Very ‘Disney’.

Concept

Kind of goes with story, but lets explore a bit further.

Port Orleans – The South, Old and New. The concept is carried very well through the layout, the architecture, the landscaping, and the planning. Just look at Riverside with the mansions and bayous. They have very different ‘feel’ – and not just because of the differing structures. In a matter of feet, Disney takes you from one environment to another. What a Disney touch. The layout and landscaping contribute to this feel, the quite stillness and meandering paths or beautiful lawns and entrances, depending on which section.

CBR - Traveling the Islands of the Caribbean. Another concept carried well despite the fact that the actual Islands themselves have little distinguishing feature other than color. Old Port Royale is done well – and should be better after the rehab. The music around the resort might not be under the water, but what is piped in around OPR is just as magical as any other on property, even the muffled music under the water at the CR and Poly. Actually, in our vast Disney resort experience, the music of the CBR is one of our most endearing memories. Lots of Disney touch here.

CSR – The Variety of the Desert SW. OK, perhaps the “mod” shortest on Disney touch. However, the use of architecture, fountains, and many other details set the time and place very well and make this a worthy Disney concept.

Sure, anyone can use architecture, landscaping, lighting, music, etc. to set the environment – but no one does it like Disney. No one has the Disney touch that is displayed in these concepts.

Experience

Perhaps the most important of all when looking at the Disney touch – and the experience is incredible at each of these resorts. The drive into each resort is as memorable and eventful as any of the original or “deluxe” hotels. Check in is no different an experience. From the check in point you have just as much, if not more, ‘experience’ at some of the “mods”.

Look at POR – Riverside. You enter into an old southern river town. When you leave check in you walk out – boat transportation awaits, the mill turns as you walk the old bridge to begin your adventure in the old south. From there you travel the winding paths of the old south, lights flickering in the evening, past grand southern mansions or rustic old bayous. Pretty nice touch.

Look at POR – French Quarter. Into the middle of festive New Orleans. Out you go into the narrow streets of the French Quarter, with the distinctive NO buildings and flair grabbing all of your senses. Touch, touch, touch.

Look at CBR – After clearing customs you head to the bustling island marketplace – the point from which you depart to the varied island. Pretty cool touch.

Look at CSR – ok, the uniqueness (is that a word?) of the experience, other than being taken to the desert SW, isn’t so overwhelming – but the Disney ability to invoke the time and place thing is still a nice touch.

Overall at these resorts, just as much as any other ‘Disney’ resort, the CM’s add to the experience, the parking, bell services, guest services, etc. – well, there is no distinction between the “mods” and the others.

To me, it is these three items that really define the ‘Disney’ experience. It is these items that heavily rely on ‘Disney’ touch. These three crucial items are not lacking in the “mods”. However, there are more factors we can look at. So on we go………..

Pools

The pools at the “mods” are as good as anywhere else (SAB aside – but I still don’t know if LB approves of YC/BC), talking original design that is.

Recreation and Activities

Yes, some of the “mods” are a bit more limited than some of the “deluxes” – but not to the detriment of the resort ‘experience’, IMHO – unless you like to stand around and say “Ha! I can do this at the CR and I can’t do it here so this resort must be inferior – it must not be ‘Disney’”.

Common Areas/Lobby

Well, the “mods” don’t have them. The “mods” are a different ‘experience’ – but that ‘experience’ is just as ‘Disney’. Different is not bad. Different is actually good. So what if it wasn’t a Master Plan ‘experience’ – that is irrelevant to this discussion. In this area the “mods” might not have the touches that one person might look for or want, but they have plenty of unique touches (see most of discussion above) that make these resorts uniquely ‘Disney’. To be honest – even the CR is very lacking in nice, useable common areas.

Rooms

Larger at the CR/Poly (and other “deluxes”) – yes. Does that remove all of the other ‘Disney’ touches at the “mods” and make them non ‘Disney’ – no. With respect to rooms, the ‘Disney’ touch that matters is the décor, the furnishing, and the carrying of the theme. That is done just as well at the “mods” as anywhere else.

So where does that put us? Yes, you could go on for pages about the CR and Poly. You could discuss their story, concept, experience, amenities, facilities and rooms. They may be different. They may have some different touches. However, all the resorts we are discussing have ‘Disney touch’, plain and simple. But again, lets go a little further. Perhaps we should look a little harder at what the “deluxe” have that the “mods” don’t (and maybe help the Baron see a reason for price difference ).

Location

Yes, a biggie. However, ‘location, location, location’ is not a concept or touch that Disney invented. It is very important to the “deluxe” experience, but lack of location doesn’t detract from all the other truly unique ‘Disney” touches at other hotels. Does location add to cost? Sure. By location we also bring in transportation. Monorail stations, boat routes, etc. add cost.

Story/Concept/Theme

No big differentiators here, unless the only story/concept/theme that is acceptable is one from the 7th preliminary plot plan.

Experience

Again, different in ways at the “deluxe”, but better? We have stayed at the CR and I can’t say the ‘experience’ was any better than any other Disney resort we have stayed at. Different – yes. Better – no. Do we consider WL, GF, BC a better ‘experience’? Yes, we do. However, that is because we appreciate the higher level of service and amenities at these resorts. However, that really doesn’t have much to do with ‘Disney’ touch and such things are present in any ‘higher end’ resort, Disney or otherwise. The location adds to the ‘experience’, but other than that the ‘experience’ is on par with the “mods”. These resorts all have wonderful, cozy, common areas to sit and relax that are not present at the mods (or the CR for that matter). That is a nice touch at these resorts – but it is just something different. None of that could even begin to detract from the touches that the “mods” have, many of which are unique to those resorts.

You see, the ‘touch’ is most definitely there; you just have to be able to recognize that not every hotel has to be the CR or Poly to be ‘Disney’.

So tell me Baron, is the ‘standard’ now (you fill in the order)

Safety
Courtesy
Show
Touch
Efficiency

Or is Touch part of show, as I thought? Either way, the “mods” meet the standards – and isn’t that what is so important?

As to the whole price differential, I still maintain that planning, design, and construction cost add to price. So do location/transportation and some amenities (health clubs, etc) that are not unique ‘Disney’ touches, but can be found at any ‘higher end’ resort.

So, that is the answer to your question of what ‘Disney’ touch the “mods” have. Debunk away. However, rather than just disagreeing, tell me what touches the originals have that the “mods” don’t that would justify taking the ‘Disney’ moniker away from the “mods”.

That would place the ball squarely in any “mod haters” court I believe, including the self proclaimed ‘king of the mod haters’ .

 

[raidermatt]

If Sak's Fifth Avenue opened a store that said said Sak's on the front, but was essentially a Walmart with better lighting and signage on the inside, would that be a good thing for their brand image?

 

[raidermatt]

Or perhaps a better analogy...

Does Marriott or Hilton build Travelodges and call them Marriott or Hilton?

Even with the Courtyards', Marriott only uses "by Marriott". And even these are a far cry from a Travelodge.

 

[Captain Crook]

If Sak's opened a store and called it 'Sak's Bargain Store' I see no loss of brand. Disney's name is in front of their wide range of hotels which are clearly dilenated as Deluxe, Moderate and Budget. They are being upfront that differences can be expected. I see no problem here...

Disneykidds, what a great post.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

OK!! Another fun filled day in paradise!! So, first things first. And we’ll go in order from last night.

Sir Larry!

Maybe 'cause I've never stayed at the Poly or Contemp, I just can't see this angle.

Look, my friend. I have stayed at the Caribbean Beach. And I’ve stayed at the Campgrounds, the Poly and Old Key West. The Caribbean was lovely. It was very, very nice. And in all fairness I haven’t stayed in the Poly since Ei$ner started his re-classification of resorts (that sound better than caste?). So, in fact, the magic may have drained from that place as well (I know the real Tonga Torches a gone or very, very limited now! And that was something that made the night pure pixie dust around the Poly!!!). I simply don’t know its present state. But I can tell you, that after many years at the Poly and the very next year at the CBR there was a MARKED difference. Very noticeable. Did it destroy my magic? NO!!! Read my State of the Park Addresses!! Hardly anything can ‘destroy’ MY magic!! But it did make me rethink it. Redefine it. And it made me, for the very first time, settle. Instead of being WOWed, I settled!! It made me, also for the very first time, LOWER my expectations.

My whole family feels immersed in the Disney Magic when we are at the Mods.

So did I. Just not as much!!

I keep saying it and I’ll say it again. The Mods are not bad at all!! In fact they are very good!! Just not quite up to the standards that I was used to when I stayed at the Poly!! And for the same price!! And it is important, whether you want to call it ‘cheap’ or just knowing a good (GREAT) value!!! I think you might feel differently if you could stay at the Poly for the EXACT same amount (and really under if we use the index) as the Mods. I know I did.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

This is still a left over from last night. I haven’t even read your latest pile of... ah... your latest post!! Anyway, I’ll get to it some time tonight!! But Scoop owes me at least some recognition if not an answer. So, he’s next!!

I'm with Scoop on this subject

Why am I not surprised?

You can talk about protecting the brand all you want

Yes!! It should, at all times, be ‘protected’. Never, under any circumstances, should it be exploited and sold to the highest bidder, even if that ‘bidder’ is your own bottom line, to support the next quarterly report!! Protect!! PROTECT!! PROTECT!! Never exploit!!

(hasn't selling the 'brand' always been looked at as a bad thing around here?)

Boy, you seem to miss the point a lot, don’t you? NO!! Selling the brand is not a bad thing. That’s business!! However, OVER selling the brand is a terrible thing. I know it’s a fine line, but the way Ei$ner over sells it, it’s a concept that should be relatively easy for you to pick up on! He’s consistently WAY over the line.

But we’re not talking about selling it, are we? No we’re not. In fact, I believe we are talking about something that is almost the direct opposite of selling it. We’re talking about “PROTECTING” it. Protecting the image of Disney. Protecting the image that only in a Disney resort do you get that “different” resort experience. Protecting the… well… ahhh… the SHOW!! It has nothing to do with bus service, advertisements or where you can buy a ticket book. It has to do with where you can get a SHOW (a Disney patented SHOW, like no other on the earth) and where you can’t!! It’s really that simple. Don’t make it harder than it is!! I know, I know. Another fine line, but I do wish you’d try to catch some of the nuances and subtleties of the conversation!!

Not sure when the tag was applied, but these hotels were OFFICIAL HOTELS OF WDW, with ON-SITE RESORT GUEST BENEFITS.

Neither am I. But it really doesn’t matter.

Look. I don’t have a mid-seventies brochure in front of me and I really can’t remember how they advertised them*. All I can tell you is what I remember. And I NEVER considered them, even remotely, as being Disney hotels. NEVER!!! The thought never even entered my head for one single solitary moment!! Why the mere idea is ludicrous!! Preposterous!! Comical!!! (I really didn’t need those synonyms. But I really enjoyed typing them!! )

Maybe Walt was just plain wrong to not include 'Disney' moderates in the Master Plan.

The argument you should have used in the first place. And of course, I disagree! But this is one of those that we will have to “agree to disagree”. There cannot be a winner. You have your beliefs and I have mine.

But, you know, when it comes to Disney philosophy and knowing what is right and wrong for the company, in what “beliefs” to hold for the company (and as a byproduct, the SHOW), and especially for the long term good of the company, I usually listen to Walt. I’m surprised that not every one does!! He was pretty smart when it came to these things. But I understand. I don’t agree, but I understand. You, on the other hand, think Ei$ner is smarter. That his way of doing business is the “smart” way. But hey, who’s to say! Right? I mean Walt’s been dead a long time!! And Ei$ner could start dazzling us at moment!!

I am at a loss on the AS

Ahhh! Brother I feel your pain. The same ‘at a loss’ feeling I have for the moderates. Now, picture yourself trying to defend your “at a loss” feeling to someone who simply ADORES the All-Stars!! Those same arguments you used on me would be used on you. And, quite possibly, you would defend your position saying pretty much what I am saying. Frustrating isn’t it? I know!! I’ve been there. Talking to the All-Stars fanatic that thinks I’m a snob because I berate their beloved motel (I cannot, in clear conscience, call it a resort)!!

YES!! Tiss a slippery slope indeed! OH!! How I wish the Brand would have stayed protected instead of exploited and sold!! (now do you see the difference?)


* As a footnote (which is why this note is where it is!! ), it should be of interest to note that back then Disney did no advertising in the traditional sense. Oh yes. They handed out brochures and pamphlets in the parks. And they sent you informational stuff when you booked or showed an interested in booking. And there was the natural tie in to the TV show. But NO radio, print, billboards or TV ads!! EVER!! Just good will, by giving the public everything they could. In other words, good old fashioned word of mouth. And their numbers rose to unprecedented heights!! Do you think that their ‘word of mouth’ is good enough to carry them though today?

But like you say….

but this is all smoke and mirrors.

Must have been!!!

 

[DisneyKidds]

Look. I don’t have a mid-seventies brochure in front of me and I really can’t remember how they advertised them*. All I can tell you is what I remember. And I NEVER considered them, even remotely, as being Disney hotels. NEVER!!! The thought never even entered my head for one single solitary moment!!

An awful lot of I's and me's in this paragraph .

The argument you should have used in the first place. And of course, I disagree! But this is one of those that we will have to “agree to disagree”. There cannot be a winner. You have your beliefs and I have mine.

Fair enough.

But, you know, when it comes to Disney philosophy and knowing what is right and wrong for the company, in what “beliefs” to hold for the company (and as a byproduct, the SHOW), and especially for the long term good of the company, I usually listen to Walt. I’m surprised that not every one does!! He was pretty smart when it came to these things. But I understand. I don’t agree, but I understand.

Sure, Walt was very smart. At least acknowledge that many of the points I'm making are based on reading Walts actions. You may feel I read them wrong, and we can agree to disagree there. However, summarily dismissing me is insulting as you are not the only one to take an iterest in trying to decifer the Walt ways through the use of bios and other books.

You, on the other hand, think Ei$ner is smarter. That his way of doing business is the “smart” way. But hey, who’s to say! Right? I mean Walt’s been dead a long time!! And Ei$ner could start dazzling us at moment!!

There you go - getting carried away again . Where have I said that. Talk about missing the conversation. You have won me over to car 1.5, maybe even 2. These are not my sentiments re: ME. I think the ME implementation is wrong. But some (not all) of the ideas are good and would have been done better by Walt, IMHO.

Ahhh! Brother I feel your pain. The same ‘at a loss’ feeling I have for the moderates. Now, picture yourself trying to defend your “at a loss” feeling to someone who simply ADORES the All-Stars!!

I assume you will get to my last post. If an AS lover can present the same arguments to me regarding those resorts perhaps I would be convinced of all the merits and abandon my archaic thinking , as you should be of the moderates . I welcome someone to present the evidence.

See you soon

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

DAMN!!! You are still one up on me!!! Ahhhhhhhhhhh!!!

But, of course. Exactly – or so I thought. You see, the touch is part of the Show.

Well, yes and no. You see, anyone can put on a show. Heck we do it all the time when we decorate for our kid’s birthday party, Halloween or Christmas. Our Gang comedies and Mickey Rooney and Judy Garland used to put on a “show” every week (you know. “Come on kids!! Let’s put on a show!!!) But the ‘touch’ I’m talking about are all those little things that sets Disney apart from every place else on earth. This is something that Ei$ner has not learned. This is something that Walt didn’t even have to think about. To him it was natural.

So yes! That famous Disney “touch” is certainly part of the SHOW. In fact it is the defining part!!

Someone agreed that some of the “mods” have damned good show. Seems to me there must be ‘touch’ present for someone to be able to make such a statement .

Yeah!! Don’t you listen!! PLEASE UNDERSTAND THIS!!! The Mods are very, very nice!! There are plenty of ‘touch’ items all over the place. And I’m sure that if we walk around the All-Stars that we can find a touch here or there. Does that make the All-Stars Disney? If we find something inherently Disney there, do we give up the argument and declare that the All-Stars are wonderful magic after all!!!?? It’s all a matter of degree, my good man. A matter of degree!!!!

I will leave AS/PC out of my discussion. I think they have some Disney touch – but they are nothing compared to the “mods” and “deluxe”.

I guess that makes them Disney, does it?

However, are we getting back to cost and value here?

Is there anything else?

Are you looking for a reason why the “deluxe” should cost more? You say you can’t see it. Does that imply you really don’t see much difference between the “mods” and “deluxe”?

You are right!! I misspoke. What I meant to say is that I can clearly see the difference between the mods and Deluxes. But it goes further than location, transportation and table service dining. It goes to the “feel” as well. And I have a real hard time articulating that ‘feel’.

This is why I brought the economies into the picture. Because as far as amenities, there isn’t much of a difference between the Mods and Economies. Yet the ‘feel’ is apparent to even you. That’s why I gave the example of:

Because to be quite honest with you I can’t easily do that. I can point to Pop Century and say, “See!? That’s what I’m talking about!” And most people on this board would immediately understand the message I’m trying to convey. Even, I dare say, you!!

I was hoping to define that “feel” in more tangible terms and thought you may be able to do that. Well? I was hoping for some help from you. Can you provide it?

You see, if it all comes down to the money lets talk about the money.

A great deal of it does!! So let’s talk money!! NO!! Better yet! Let’s talk VALUE!!!

I will further touch on how these ‘touches’ compare to the only hotels you seem to accept as ‘Disney’ – the CR and Poly. Fair enough? Oh, wait – perhaps you do accept the YC/BC, BW, AKL, and WL as ‘Disney’ with respect to ‘touch’ – but they are all overpriced so they aren’t ‘Disney’. Is that how it goes

That is EXACTLY how it goes!! And even the Poly and Contemporary are over priced!! And I will talk value, but first some of your other points.

Well!!! You did a hell of a job!!!

Quite a list. And do you know what? I agree with almost every goll-darn thing you said!!! HOW ABOUT THAT!!! (I think it calls for more bouncies!!! How about you? )



BUT!!! (awe nuts!) Yes - BUT! There are a few items that I need to point out!

Referencing Check-in experience:

Check in is no different an experience.

Now I’ve only stayed at the Poly so it may be different. But one of the things that blew me away was the little carts that brought you and family and luggage to your room. It was WAY cool!! Do you mean to say the Mods have that “touch”? If not, quite a loss!!

Referencing POR

boat transportation awaits

And the quick answer is - NOT ANYMORE PAL!!!

Referencing CS “feel”:

OK, the uniqueness (is that a word?) of the experience, other than being taken to the desert SW, isn’t so overwhelming

‘nuff said!!

Referencing pools:

The pools at the “mods” are as good as anywhere else (SAB aside – but I still don’t know if LB approves of YC/BC), talking original design that is.

Tell me what is unique about them. Tell me where the Imagineer’s touch is. At the Poly they played South Seas music under the water. At the Contemporary they played Rock and Roll. Even the Beach and Yacht club pool is unique and that was built under Ei$ner’s regime. So, what is unique about them? Nothing? What!!??? Ahhhh! I thought so.

Referencing recreational choices:

Yes, some of the “mods” are a bit more limited than some of the “deluxes” – but not to the detriment of the resort ‘experience’, IMHO – unless you like to stand around and say “Ha! I can do this at the CR and I can’t do it here so this resort must be inferior – it must not be ‘Disney’”.

Even the campgrounds had a plethora of recreational offerings. And so, ‘nuff said!!

Referencing common areas:

Well, the “mods” don’t have them. The “mods” are a different ‘experience’ – but that ‘experience’ is just as ‘Disney’.

No not quite!! Why don’t you get it! THE STANDARD IS THE STANDARD!!!!! I can’t say it any louder!! I could see one resort not having them. Or another having more. But not the entire class!! This is exactly what I’m talking about!!! Don’t you see that!!??

Referencing room size:

Larger at the CR/Poly (and other “deluxes”) – yes. Does that remove all of the other ‘Disney’ touches at the “mods” and make them non ‘Disney’ – no.

Yes! See above (he says with a sigh!!)

Referencing location:

Yes, a biggie. However, ‘location, location, location’ is not a concept or touch that Disney invented.

IT MOST CERTAINLY IS!!! Do you think it’s an accident that those two resorts were built on the monorail run? Do you think it was an accident that Fort Wilderness had constant boat transportation and a Steam locomotive traveling throughout the campgrounds? Come on!! This is the BIGGEST touch going!!

It is very important to the “deluxe” experience, but lack of location doesn’t detract from all the other truly unique ‘Disney” touches at other hotels.

No one said it does detract. Touches aren’t like extra credit and or demerit points to be added to or subtracted from. It just is! And the transportation “touch” isn’t!! And it’s an important one!!!

As to the whole price differential, I still maintain that planning, design, and construction cost add to price.

Ahhhh!! So finally we get to the subject at hand!! The crux of the matter.

The official LandBaron philosophy of Value/cost/price/brand and everything else related to it regarding Disney!

Walt was no theme park genius. He was no attractions genius. Yes, he was very, very good at what he did. (and in all honesty he was a genius, but I thought I needed to grab you) But what he was a genius at, what he was a master at was giving his “guests” VALUE!!!

Stay with me here, it’s my first time putting these feeling down and it may take a while. Anyway, I contend that ANYONE could build a theme park, full of absolutely marvelous attractions and sights to fill anyone with awe and wonder. You could do it. I could do it. Anyone could do it. IF!! If you had a money machine. If you had unlimited resources. And could charge hundreds of dollars for the experience! And that’s where Walt’s genius lies! He knew how to produce his SHOW AND provide the guest with VALUE.

Take his theme park for example. His wife even tried to talk him out of it. She said that amusement parks were “dirty” and why would he want that? He simply said, “Mine wouldn’t be.” Back in 1967 Riverview (and I imagine Coney Island and the other around the nation) charged $0.50 for a ride through the tunnel of Love. You remember those. Rat infested, chipped paint, rotting wood, mildew smelling cheap cardboard cutouts. I have the ticket stub from Riverview. Do you know what an “E” ticket cost in 1977, a full ten years later? An “E” ticket that bought you a similar boat ride. Except these boat rides toured “A Small World” and “Pirates”. Ninety cents!! YEP!! What a difference and for only a little bit more!!! WOW!!!

The same thing happened in the late sixties when they decided to enter the Resort business. They did outrageously wonderful resorts for Holiday Inn prices. Now, Holiday Inn was considered the more expensive choice at the time for your average vacationer. But look what you got!!!! The contemporary!! If nothing else that monorail was worth the slightly extra cost to your average family of four! Or the romantic pure Escapism of the Poly!! WOW!!! Such a deal!!!

Now even back then there were resorts that offered four or five star accommodations that might even blow those two clear out of the water! I was certainly no world traveler at the time, but I’m sure many could tell us of absolutely wonderful resorts that beat the Ploy hands down. But I’ll lay you odds that those places ran in the hundreds even back then. When the Poly was charging $32.50 a night!!!! Now, to me, that is a HUGE part of the magic!! Simply because I was getting a MAGICAL value. A value that allowed me to stay somewhere that made me feel special. Someplace I could NEVER afford if it were priced according to the market!! I really could not believe what I was getting, what the company was giving to me, at this tremendously low, low price. WOW!!!

Want an indication that the costs were unbelievably low? Check out how the rates have more than doubled the rate of inflation since then. Especially the first few years that Ei$ner took over. Pretty sad, isn’t it?

Now, you may be made of money. You may be able to simply walk into that store and not ask the price. You know the one. The one that says, “If you have to ask, you can’t afford it”!! Well, I am not. And I appreciate a good value. And Disney offered me so much VALUE I was simply overwhelmed!!!!

I probably screwed it up!! So, if you have question, ask away...


... your turn...

 

[Captain Crook]

You guys are...nutz!

You're both wrong about CSR though. Disney painted a more accurate picture of the SW (particularily with the Ranchos section) at CSR than they did with that faux Polynesian style... How does this enter the equation? ... Oh, and LB, you CAN get the golfcart ride to your room at CSR as well. Is it Disney now?

 

[SnackyStacky]

I just have to say these few things:

1.) I agree with Landbaron, but both he and DisneyKidds know that.

2.) I think it's really funny how this EXACT conversation is being rehashed as it was in the maintaining the Walt standard thread. It just strikes me as funny.

3.) I am only recently able to finance long trips, not just to Disney World, but anywhere. I took weekend trips to places, but in fact Disney was just too much.

I have worked and waited a long time to be able to visit Disney World. 17 years, in fact. It really bothers me that I am not offered the same resort experiences because I don't have as much money as other people.

With the analogy Landbaron used, I could pay $.90 instead of $.50 for a boatride that was better. Had more show, and more magic. I am prepared for this when I plan to go to Disney. I was ready to spend $80 for a room. Not a Disney room. But if I were going to Toledo, OH, I'd be willing to spend $80. I would have gone higher to stay in a deluxe Disney resort. Maybe $100 or so. But you know what? I needed almost $200 per night to stay at the Boardwalk Inn. That's just not in the cards for a 5 night stay, and I feel very exploited. I feel like the Disney company is saying to me: "We only cater to those who can afford to pay $200 or more per night for our deluxe experience". And you know what? You can argue the point back and forth, but that's not what Walt would have wanted.

Maybe to put it a better way, tt would be as if another theme park were built on property, some of the magic wouldn't be there, admission would be somewhat lower and the park would be billed as a moderate park. Not quite as good as the original, but enjoyable in its own way.

Then, a Six Flags clone is put on property. They stick up a giant statue of a Disney character, they slap on an admission price that is lower than the above hypothetical "moderate" park, and about on-par with Six Flags admission, and call it a value park.

Then, after all of that is said and done, the rates are jacked up, and the value costs as much as current Disney admission, and the others are raised accordingly until the original Magic Kingdom, now a "deluxe park", would be horrendously overpriced.

Ridiculous? Yes, and that's exactly what happened (as far as I am concerned) with the Disney resorts. I feel excluded from the original magic at the Polynesian and the contemporary.

I'm not trying to get into this debate, because I really don't have enough experience to say which resorts have which amount of magic. I'm just trying to show why I feel the way I do about Disney resorts.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

Dan,

Your analogy is PERFECT!!

Move over Matt!! We got another shotgun rider!!!

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

If an AS lover can present the same arguments to me regarding those resorts perhaps I would be convinced of all the merits and abandon my archaic thinking, as you should be of the moderates .

Somehow I doubt it. You’re as hardheaded as I am!! And the Captain is quite right!! We are BOTH nutz!

You have won me over to car 1.5, maybe even 2.

‘nuff said!!!

 

[DisneyKidds]

Originally posted by Captain Crook
You guys are...nutz!

You're both wrong about CSR though. Disney painted a more accurate picture of the SW (particularily with the Ranchos section) at CSR than they did with that faux Polynesian style... How does this enter the equation? ... Oh, and LB, you CAN get the golfcart ride to your room at CSR as well. Is it Disney now?

Certifiable . But don't cha luv it!

Thanks for the added info on CSR. Actually, it is our fave "mod". I have been to the SW a few times, but not enough to make the statement you made above. Where does it fit? - well, it makes CSR all the more 'Disney'.

Baron, that question about the carts at the "mods" sure has me worried. You apparently are not completely up on some aspects, yet you refuse to accept and process info that would lead to logical conclusions that are contrary to those you currently have way too tight a grasp on . Here is a difference between you and I. I can admit moving back a half a car. I can point out some things that might not be as great in the "mods" as in the "deluxe". What do you do - pounce on those without looking at the entire conversation with an open mind. I used 'Nuff said' as a joke in a non-post - you use it as your (lame) argument (meaning to this tongue - I AM sticking it out at you again).

Well, yes and no.

How the heck do you have a conversation when this is the answer?

I think it's really funny how this EXACT conversation is being rehashed as it was in the maintaining the Walt standard thread. It just strikes me as funny.

Ahh...Mr. Snacky, I mean Snacky - you make a great point regarding one side of the conversation , but I don't think you are helping the guy sitting next to you driving. Look at my posts on this thread. Go ahead. Now go back to the Maintaining the Standard thread. Go ahead. What do you see? I'll tell you what. Yes - a discussion ensues regarding resorts. However, it is not quite the same, at least not on both sides. In one the talk is about what Walt would have/might have done. Would there be "mods"?, could they be better than they are today? etc., etc. In another the talk is about the "mods" themselves - the experience, the story, the touches - what makes the current "mods" 'Disney'. You see, I try and add somethting new or different to each discussion. Some other un-named party just says the same old thing . With some people it just comes back to the same old same old - no matter how you try and discuss something different. So no - the EXACT conversation is not being rehashed. Well, ok, it is on one side - but that wouldn't be mine .

Somehow I doubt it. You’re as hardheaded as I am!!

I'd put the somehow I doubt it AFTER me being as hardheaded as you . You see, it may be that you were spoiled, and from October 1971 forward there was nowhere to go but down in the Baron view of the World. If it is not exactly what the CR or Poly was in 1971, at the same value quotient, it just isn't 'Disney'. Heck, right now there is nothing that is 'Disney' according to you. That is such a narrow view of the World. If all you can do is muster a few 'Nuff Saids' in response to a few areas I can admit might be something less than the "deluxe" (while you ignore the fact that the "mods" often present something else unique unto themselves and more than the "deluxe") and you close your mind from there..........., well I really don't know what to say - other than I feel really bad for you. There is so much there that you refuse to embrace, to grab onto and drink the Magic, to see what 'Disney' really is all about. 'Disney' is a feel, an escape, a release, a comfort, a homecoming, something you feel to your core, an ideal, a standard - it is so many things. We are talking Walts 'Disney' - what it is he wanted to create and why he wanted to create it. We aren't talking Disney (trademark thingie) - the corporate Disney that seperates you from your money. You see the 'Disney' still exists in Disney (trademark thingie). OK - in 1971 they were one in the same and today they are not. That is something you have to get past. From there the world of 'Disney' is an amazing place to this day.

OK - the guys from Bellvue are at my door .

Ok - back to the point by point as I still have few rounds in me, even though I know that it is a fruitless conversation .

Well, yes and no. You see, anyone can put on a show.

Talk about missing your subtleties of the conversation. I am quite aware that there are huge differences bwtween 'a show' and 'Show'. If you realize anything, realize that, and I am talking about the real deal Show with a capital 'S'.

It goes to the “feel” as well. And I have a real hard time articulating that ‘feel’.

I know exactly what you mean about the feel - and it is there in the "mods". For some reason you just won't allow yourself to feel the 'feel'.

Onward....

Yes, they do have carts.

Didn't they rinstate the boats to DTD?

CSR is more unique than I realized. Go discuss with the Captain - unless he is busy visiting me in the loony bin for car 1.5 occupants.

Your arguments regarding pools don't hold water. The CR pool is NOTHING. It is so NOTHING that I couldn't be attracted to it to hear the muffled sounds of rock and roll under the water. Not so unique you see. BTW - the CR and Poly aren't the only resorts to use music in an incredible way. If that is one of the best arguments you can find to shoot down the "mods" you better find another hobby .

No not quite!! Why don’t you get it! THE STANDARD IS THE STANDARD!!!!!

See, you confound me again. The standard is the standard. What the heck does that mean? I thought the standard was 1. Safety 2. Courtesy 3. Show (Touch) 4. Efficiency. However, it appears that to you the standard is the CR. It baffles me that you can not accept that there can be more than one way to implement and maintain what I thought were the standards. Furthermore, if the CR is the standard for common areas I will lay down on the double yellow and lets cars 1 - 4 run me over. To you there is just one Disney 'experience'. How small and disappointing that World must be . It doesn't have to be that way you know .

Room size. If it isn't the same size as CR it isn't 'Disney'. Come on! I guess to you 'Disney' is all about numbers - sq. ft., miles to MK, dollars, etc. So what is all this talk about 'feel' then. You see, feel is not dependent on numbers alone. Maybe you could feel the 'feel' if you weren't so busy looking for those 75 sq. ft. the "mods" are 'missing'.

No one said it does detract. Touches aren’t like extra credit and or demerit points to be added to or subtracted from. It just is! And the transportation “touch” isn’t!! And it’s an important one!!!

Location is very important - I gave you that. But the 'experience' doesn't degrade with each foot farther removed from the MK you get. You say that touch 'just is', that touches can't be added up on a +/- scorecard. However, it is apparent that you see 'Disney' as a list of touches, and if one is not checked it is not 'Disney'. All I can get back to is how bad I feel for you if this is the only way you can view the World.

The official LandBaron philosophy of Value/cost/price/brand and everything else related to it regarding Disney!

Yawn! As Snacky pointed out - been there, done that, had the discussion. Not to offend. I stayed with you as you poured out those feelings for the first time. However, in the end I realized you have made every one of those points before. I admire the strenght of your convictions. However, sometimes people's stubborn constitutions are too strong for their own good .

So, you asked for questions and I have one. Humor me and seperate 'Disney' from value (don't have a fit - I know there are one in the same to you - I get that). Having done that, is everything else that makes Disney 'Disney' there, it just is no longer a value, or is 'Disney' not there at all. You see after all this discussion I can't seem to answer that question.

Your serve .

 

[mjstaceyuofm]

THis is GREAT stuff to read.....

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

OK. We have a problem with tone. And in this medium it is extremely hard to convey a proper tone. Attitude. Connotation vs. denotation. And offensive vs. innocuous. So, first order of business is to set my tone and try to convey my intent and attitude.

What do you do - pounce on those without looking at the entire conversation with an open mind. I used 'Nuff said' as a joke in a non-post - you use it as your (lame) argument (meaning to this tongue - I AM sticking it out at you again).

I take hardly anything personal. I love the talk. I really like the mild banter and the serious exchange of concepts. You had me on the floor with you “cheap S.O.B. comments. I love that kind of stuff!! Just like the Pirate does to me every now and again!! LOVE IT!! And I do try very hard not to offend anyone. The last thing in the world I want to do is stop the other person from talking. I’m sorry if you were offended by the cute little tag line that I swiped from you. I meant no offense. And I especially didn’t want to give you the impression that I was blowing you off!! NEVER!! I read and try to grasp every word of your post!

But, I’ve also learned that we need to be as objective as possible. At all times. What I try NOT to do is use personal taste as a guidepost or measuring stick. I used to!! I used it all the time! I’d say look at all the western hemisphere, mainly American, themes in all these resorts that should have been soooo much more!!! Look at how ordinary they are!!! Look how mundane!! And you know what? I found that while many agreed with me, many did not!! All a matter of taste! And this was driven home in our discussions regarding the “theme” of the Golf Resort and the original Market Place with my good friend Scoop. (See Scoop!! You taught me something after all!!)

During that conversation he brought up Fort Wilderness. He said it was not up to standards! Of course I was appalled. I consider it more up to standards than the moderates!! But he said that it would have been better if they had done some wild Amazon theme or African Nile type thing. Something exotic. But instead we got a fairly ordinary campgrounds (I’m paraphrasing and DO NOT want to get into this conversation. It is for illustrative purposes only)! Well, of course he’s wrong . But only in the sense that theme doesn’t matter as long as you can see the “Disney” within. Not caring for a particular theme makes that job very hard indeed!! He didn’t like the campgrounds because he didn’t like the theme. The same could be said of his opinion of the Golf resort and the Market Place. And I found I was just as guilty about other things I thought about in a subjective manner. JJ also used to stress the importance of taking the subjectivity OUT of the equation. So, I try. I don’t always succeed, but I do try.

So, most of the - ‘nuff said - was either in reference to things you were conceding or of something I considered purely subjective. I also happened to like the saying. And not one to know moderation in almost anything in my life, I will use it until EVERYONE on these board hates me for it!! I did NOT use it as a dig to you!! I really like the look, sound and feel of it. OK? Not offended anymore? Good! Then… ‘nuff said!!

Baron, that question about the carts at the "mods" sure has me worried. You apparently are not completely up on some aspects, yet you refuse to accept and process info that would lead to logical conclusions that are contrary to those you currently have way too tight a grasp on .

You are right. I wrote off most of the resorts (as options for accommodations) about ten years ago. You know, when the price skyrocketed to the over 200 buck a night bracket. I bought the DVC. I found Disney value there. I now visit the resorts when pool hopping and/or dining. And I LOVE them for that. We spend an awful lot of time at other resorts. We actually carve out blocks of time specifically for hotel hopping. We love it!! It is how I get my “feel” at the resorts. And I’m afraid that the “feel” for the deluxe resorts is much more Disney-like than at the “mods”. That is until I’m told what it costs to stay there a night. And then I realize that you could get the same experience in Chicago, New York, LA, or especially Vegas. The themes are different. But the attention to detail is not. The ‘amenities’ are not. And that just bursts my bubble!! And I find it sad that at one time a Disney resort had such tremendous value for the SHOW only they alone could provide, and today they are barely keeping up (and sometimes not able to keep up i.e Vegas Hotels) with the current marketplace.

You see, it may be that you were spoiled, and from October 1971 forward there was nowhere to go but down in the Baron view of the World. If it is not exactly what the CR or Poly was in 1971, at the same value quotient, it just isn't 'Disney'.

Yes!! I was spoiled. I freely admit it. All of us were. THAT is the reason for my devotion to the company. You have hit the nail right on the head!! They were expensive!! Let there be no mistake about that!! But they always gave you something extra. They ALWAYS exceeded your expectations. They ALWAYS provided you with great VALUE!!

Personally, I don’t understand a newcomer falling in love with a company like Disney. I know I wouldn’t! They treat their customers like numbers, have their hands in your pocket every chance they get and capriciously change policy if the slide rule of the day says it’ll help the bottom line a bit!! Good God!! They sound like IBM, General Motors, Coca-Cola , Microsoft or any other big business!! And I don’t know about you, but I’m not in the habit of falling in love with mega-companies!! Heck, I don’t fall for ANY company! And I certainly wouldn’t let a ‘company’ blind me as I have allowed Disney to blind me!! Yes!! I was spoiled by a big business that operated like a mom & pop outfit. They went out of their way, seemingly at no regard for their cost, just to make sure I had a good time. Talk about your Pixie Dust!! The only remnant of that philosophy today is found in the CMs.

That is such a narrow view of the World.

Yes! It is. I wish you could have experienced it for only a day! If you had, there’s a good chance I’d be fighting you for driving privileges in car #3!!

'Disney' is a feel, an escape, a release, a comfort, a homecoming, something you feel to your core, an ideal, a standard - it is so many things.

Yes!! You are right! And I must admit I do like it! I still like it! I spend a whole bunch of time there, remember?

We are talking Walts 'Disney' - what it is he wanted to create and why he wanted to create it. We aren't talking Disney (trademark thingie) - the corporate Disney that separates you from your money.

NO SIR!! We are NOT! We are certainly talking Disney ®! There is quite a difference!

Now you accused me of not seeing things clearly. Of not admitting that I could possibly be wrong. But I contend that your flat out assumption that the current company is the same as Walt’s company is a major stumbling block in our conversations!! I cannot reconcile the two! And quite frankly, I don’t know how you can!! And I seem to spend an inordinate amount of time and words trying to paint a picture for you of what the company was like!! And is seems to me that you are refusing to listen!! It’s as if by admitting that it just may have been better in the ‘good-old-days’ you are somehow destroying the magic that you find there today!! Why is that!?

So a question! Are you saying that, regarding WDW only, there is relatively no difference between the company in say 1972 and the company, as we know it today? Please!! If you touch on nothing else in this post, PLEASE, please answer this one!!

I know exactly what you mean about the feel - and it is there in the "mods". For some reason you just won't allow yourself to feel the 'feel'.

Try this one on for size. It happened to me about a year ago on this very board.

“I know exactly what you mean about the feel - and it is there in the All-Stars. For some reason you just won't allow yourself to feel the 'feel'.”

Now what do you say to that? How does one appropriately answer something that is so apparent to you, there are simply no words to describe it. And you are quite flabbergasted that someone you are talking to, doesn’t see it as well!!

Your arguments regarding pools don't hold water. The CR pool is NOTHING.

You have seen the remodeled pool. The Ei$ner remodeled pool. And I would have to agree with you. Nothing very special at all!!

It is so NOTHING that I couldn't be attracted to it to hear the muffled sounds of rock and roll under the water. Not so unique you see. BTW - the CR and Poly aren't the only resorts to use music in an incredible way.

I never said they were the ONLY ones. I said they were one of the first ones. I drew the comparison to ask where the new pool innovations were. What “touches” did they add, not to bolster the bottom line, but to provide simply because they could. Because it made good SHOW. Because it was the “Disney” thing to do!!

See, you confound me again. The standard is the standard. What the heck does that mean? I thought the standard was 1. Safety 2. Courtesy 3. Show (Touch) 4. Efficiency.

No! I should have corrected this the first time you used it inappropriately. Sorry.

Those four items are the cornerstone of the CM training program known as Traditions. It is the order in which they expect a CM to handle situation that may arise from time to time. It can also be thought of as a chief aspect of the Walt Disney Philosophy regarding theme park OPERATIONS, not design. An example: You have a concept for a ride. But the design calls for the exit to be behind the building, in the “Backstage” area. Your choice is:

1- spend $200,000 more redesigning and reconstructing the entire attraction
2- spend $75,000.00 more to “theme” an appropriate exit
3- Spend $0.00 and let the guests see a little of the backstage area

OK! What do you do?

Apply the “FOUR” and you have the answer!

HOWEVER, this has very little to do with the Standards of the SHOW!! It has everything to do with the philosophy behind the SHOW. Do you see the difference?

However, it appears that to you the standard is the CR. It baffles me that you can not accept that there can be more than one way to implement and maintain what I thought were the standards.

Yes. I can see how you would be confused given the mix up between ‘implementing’ the SHOW and ‘conceiving’ the SHOW. I’m sorry that I was at least indirectly responsible for the confusion.

But now that’s it’s a little clearer, do you see why I keep, steadfastly, to what Walt considered the proper way to build a SHOW. NOT how to implement it!! That’s a no brainer!! Just follow the four and you can put into action any SHOW you want and still be within legal Disney limits. But when that SHOW is executed and we find it’s NOT very Disney, we have to examine the elements that went into the very conception. We may find that those are at fault. And in that regard, I hold up as a boilerplate, the Poly and the Contemporary. In ALL aspects. That oft elusive overall “feel” that we both find so hard to describe, richness of theme, choice of theme, ‘touches’, transportation, value, amenities, service, use of space, architecture, recreational facilities, dining choices, room service, price/cost, chocolate mints and even Mickey head butter!!! And I find that though the “mods” come close in many aspects, they don’t quite make it as a whole.

[/quote]Yawn! As Snacky pointed out - been there, done that, had the discussion. Not to offend. I stayed with you as you poured out those feelings for the first time. However, in the end I realized you have made every one of those points before. [/quote]You may have stayed with me, but you have yet to discuss it with me. No! That’s not quite true. You were in it for a while. Until it was verified that the Poly went for about $32.50 a night or so. Then the silence from you on the subject was deafening!! Are you afraid to defend the current “value” in context with the value Walt gave his guests? Why not try talking about instead of calling me a cheap S.O.B and “yawning” at my arguments regarding the subject. Come on, Mr. Kidds!! Bring it on!! Defend Ei$ner’s VALUE regarding resorts!!

I admire the strength of your convictions. However, sometimes people's stubborn constitutions are too strong for their own good .

How do you do, Mr. Pot. I’m Mr. Kettle!!

So, you asked for questions and I have one. Humor me and separate 'Disney' from value (don't have a fit - I know there are one in the same to you - I get that). Having done that, is everything else that makes Disney 'Disney" there, it just is no longer a value, or is 'Disney' not there at all. You see after all this discussion I can't seem to answer that question.

I think I’ve answered that before, haven’t I? OK!! Once more, with feeling!!

YES!! They have a great many elements that I would consider “Disney”!! A great many. And they almost (ALMOST, mind you) make it!! But not quite!! And especially not for the price!! (Whoops! I slipped in the value anyway!! )

My “pong” to your “Ping”!

 

[Bstanley]

Herr Baron,

With all due respect to both you and James Michener - your posts remind me of a quote of his

In six pages I can't even say hello.

You sir are either the the fastest typist this side of heaven or have a very accurate voice recognition system!

Cheers!

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

In six pages I can't even say hello.

I am ROLLING on the floor!!!

THANKS!!!!

 

[DisneyKidds]

My good Baron - as to the first 2 pages of your post ....

Then… ‘nuff said!!

......on the 'nuff said . Sorry you go the impression I was offended - you haven't come close yet - and you never will because none of this stuff is anything to get offended over. Just fun. To be honest, I expected more in the way of discussion on those points you "'nuff saided". I was shocked (not offended) that the best you could do was use what I was giving you against me. I have come to expect much more from you . On those points you went from 2 pages per to 2 words. I didn't think you had it in you. BTW - glad you like the phrase and use it all you like .

So now that that is cleared up...................

You are right. I wrote off most of the resorts (as options for accommodations) about ten years ago. You know, when the price skyrocketed to the over 200 buck a night bracket. I bought the DVC. I found Disney value there. I now visit the resorts when pool hopping and/or dining. And I LOVE them for that. We spend an awful lot of time at other resorts. We actually carve out blocks of time specifically for hotel hopping. We love it!! It is how I get my “feel” at the resorts.

OK - I can see you writing the resorts off given the thinking you have shown me. That really is too bad. I submit that mere resort hopping is not enough for anyone to get the 'experience' the resort is capable of providing. It is hard to even get an accurate 'feel'.

Yes!! I was spoiled. I freely admit it.

Add this in and you have a recipe for contempt. You look around to get a 'feel'. You expect to find certain things that make a resort 'Disney'. When they are absent a perception is set. From there it is hard to really see what else the resort offers, what different touches make those resorts unique, and uniquely 'Disney'. I believe that there is more there than you realize - but hey, so be it.

Personally, I don’t understand a newcomer falling in love with a company like Disney.

Did we just abandon the "mod" resort discussion. Mr. Pot says so be it Mr. Kettle . So you want to discuss Disney in more general terms - ok.

I wish you could have experienced it (Disney of 1972) for only a day! If you had, there’s a good chance I’d be fighting you for driving privileges in car #3!!

Lets see how this grabs you. I was there in 1972 - but not old enough to form an opinion. I visited subsequently during your golden years, but with the perspective of a child. So no, I can't comment on what your Disney was like in what you claim as the golden era. Chew on this though - the very early 90's were just as golden. Feel free to debunk that, I'm sure you will do your best. However, EVERYTHING you mention as being great was there in the early 90's, and then some. Hours - got em. MHB and chocolates - got em. You name it it was there and Magical. The cutbacks we all lament had yet to begin. Disney was 'Disney'. Eisner was not yet Ei$ner. He had the right people around him and was adding lots of wonderful things. That, my friend, was a Disney very easy to fall in love with. However, when falling in love with that Disney there was so much more to love than there was in 1972, and not so little to narrow your focus. You see, you had all the wonderful stuff from not only 1972, but every year right up to 1990. Yes, that included another park (which I know feelings are mixed on), and "mods" (there go those mixed feelings again) and so many other things. However, exceeded expectations abounded and the money focus had not taken hold. The guest experience was still paramount.

So where am I going with this? Who the hell knows, but I put it before the court. Maybe we can get a new thread out of it. Ok - here is where I am going. You wish I could have experienced your golden Disney for a day and I would 'get it' as far as you are concerned. So I say - I wish you could have experienced the Disney of 1990 without your preconceived notions from 1972. If only you could have done that I think you would 'get it' as far as I am concerned.

I say that in 1990 it was very much 'Disney'. Today I do agree that it is Disney (trademark thingie). But I never have said this....

flat out assumption that the current company is the same as Walt’s company

I do believe there is a lot left from Walts company that is unshakeable. I do believe there is more than that as so much was added that was truely 'Disney" since 1972. However, the more recent past has changed the focus. So where does that leave our stumbling block? I think we agree with the woes of the last five or so years, maybe even ten. However, there is so much more that I fell in love with that you did not that allows me to weather the storm a bit better and not be moved to car 3. You see, I have storm windows and a storm door to help me weather the storm. You just have your double hungs and single wooden door. You have shunned the storm windows and storm door. 'I don't need those' you say. 'These things weren't in my architects plans. I don't care how good they are, how high quality, how well they integrate with my home - I DON'T LIKE EM!!! and I WON'T HAVE EM!!!!' (arms folded, scowl on face, head shaking)

So a question! Are you saying that, regarding WDW only, there is relatively no difference between the company in say 1972 and the company, as we know it today?

So you have my answer - that would be no. However, change 'today' to '1991' and I would say that WDW was better than 1972. I guess I live in the past just as much as you. However, my shorter past included more variety than your past, IMHO.

“I know exactly what you mean about the feel - and it is there in the All-Stars. For some reason you just won't allow yourself to feel the 'feel'.”

Now what do you say to that? How does one appropriately answer something that is so apparent to you, there are simply no words to describe it.

Hey, if someone can give me a couple pages on why, I am willing to listen. I have my opinions, but I am not closed minded and haven't permanently written anything off .

And in that regard, I hold up as a boilerplate, the Poly and the Contemporary.

I drew the comparison to ask where the new pool innovations were. What “touches” did they add, not to bolster the bottom line, but to provide simply because they could. Because it made good SHOW.

Ok - let me understand. CR and Poly are boilerplate, but doing the same thing is not acceptable - you want innovation. I give you innovation in the resort 'experience' in the mods (all those things you agreed with me about before you "'nuff saided" the negatives ) and you say it isn't 'Disney' because it is not the same 'experience' as the CR and Poly.

Confounded again. You criticize if Disney doesn't innovate, but if the innovation doesn't provide the same experience you take away the 'Disney' moniker. However, innovation means new, changed, different. So, if you want innovation you have to be willing to accept a new 'experience'. Are you willing to do that?

Those four items are the cornerstone of the CM training program known as Traditions.

Time out. Time for an definitions thread so we speak on the same terms. It now seems we have the Philosophy, the Standard, Disney 'Touch', and Traditions. Anything else we need to add? Can these be defined?

Conception of Show, implementation, operation, standard of Show, philosophy of Show - whatever or whichever, we get back to this.............

But when that SHOW is executed and we find it’s NOT very Disney, we have to examine the elements that went into the very conception. We may find that those are at fault. And in that regard, I hold up as a boilerplate, the Poly and the Contemporary.

You so narrowly define what is 'Disney' that it becomes very hard to talk. You find 'it's NOT very Disney' so it is end of story. You seem unwilling to open up to something outside the boilerplate being 'Disney'. Where do we go from there?

You were in it for a while. Until it was verified that the Poly went for about $32.50 a night or so. Then the silence from you on the subject was deafening!! Are you afraid to defend the current “value” in context with the value Walt gave his guests? Why not try talking about instead of calling me a cheap S.O.B and “yawning” at my arguments regarding the subject. Come on, Mr. Kidds!! Bring it on!! Defend Ei$ner’s VALUE regarding resorts!!

Sorry, not going to defend Ei$ner. Not gonna doit! Wouldn't be prudent! Read my lips - no new cutbacks!

As for the Poly or CR for $32 to $45 a night in 1972 - who really knows what that means to today. Applying the general CPI has no real bearing. Lodging inflation has outpaced the general CPI and I don't have the time or inclination to put together a lodging inflation index that would tell us what these rates woud translate into in todays dollars. I really don't think it is very far off of what you can make a dexluxe ressie for tomorrow. You could definitely get the AKL or WL for the number you would arrive at - and any mod for less. I believe there is value there, you don't. You know how I feel about the "mod" Show. Is there anything left to discuss in this regard?

YES!! They have a great many elements that I would consider “Disney”!! A great many. And they almost (ALMOST, mind you) make it!! But not quite!! And especially not for the price!! (Whoops! I slipped in the value anyway!!

Well, I'm still waiting to hear where they fall short in your opinion - and how those shortfalls fail the philosophy, standards, touch and traditions. Holding up boilerplate just isn't enough. One of our attorneys recently made the mistake of relying on boilerplate in some state contracts. He didn't adequately review those contracts. Well, my group did and guess what - there were changes to that boilerplate he blindly relied on. There were things we had to take exception to. There were things we could accept. But you had to look at the contracts to know. Don't make the same mistake my friend . As for 'especially not the price'.....well, you haven't shown that the price is any farther off the value quotient than I have shown it is on.

The boomerang is headed in your direction .

 

[SnackyStacky]

Before I open myself to a barrage of debate, I would like to say that all of this is looking at the Disney resorts from an outside view (of which I think this debate is lacking anyway) I could very well be wrong in my thinking, but Disney has yet to convince me otherwise. Anyone on this board can attempt, but it is the responsibility of DISNEY™ (for the ™, push and hold ALT while you press 0153 on the number pad side of your keyboard) to sell me their hotels. And thus far, they haven't done it.

Well, I'm still waiting to hear where they fall short in your opinion - and how those shortfalls fail the philosophy, standards, touch and traditions

1.) Choices - here is one way the magic falls EXTREMELY short in my opinion. If I'm willing to pay for a deluxe I can experience 1920's seaside america at the Boardwalk, or I can go to the south seas at the Polynesian. I can go on safari in Africa, or I can visit a New England seaport. I can go to the American Wildnerness, or I can visit a turn-of-the-century Victorian Inn.

If I'm willing to spend a little less I can visit either the backwoods or the heart of New Orleans, the old South, the Caribbean, or the Southwest. And as far as I'm concerned, no matter how well things are themed, exterior corridors bother me. It still gives it that Motel 6/Econo Lodge/Red Roof Inn look.

For even less than that, I can pick ANY decade I want and see what a Motel 6 would look like. (I have a few more choices if I care to check out the 90's because those would be the All-Stars.)

Could be personal taste, but I think this violates the Show aspect, as well as the courteous aspect. It is in extremely poor taste, and poor Show, to offer fewer choices to those who need or want to spend less money.

2.) The actual themeing. As viewed from the outside, the All-Stars really have no theme. I don't care if there are larger than life sports items, movie items or music items, it is STILL 1990's America found at a Motel 6. This definitely violates the Show aspect.

3.) The moderates sacrifice a LOT of convenience. I shouldn't have to deal with a "5 or 10 minute walk" to get to the restaurant area of a hotel. I should hop in an elevator (a what? At a moderate?), walk to the lobby and there should be a restaurant. Taking no more than 2 or 3 minutes. The horror stories of transportation I've heard about at all the moderates is enough to make me turn and run. Having to deal with standing room only, if even that is available because you're at the last stop and the bus is completely filled. This would violate the efficiency aspect.

4.) As I touched on in the last thread, the lack of elevators is also something that bothers me. Who wants to trudge luggage up the stairs?! And who wants to trudge up the stairs after a long day touring the parks, and "5 or 10 minute stroll" back to the room?!

5.) There is no specialized transportation at any of these resorts except at Port Orleans. Animal Kingdom lodge suffers from the same problem, and that's a deluxe! Put in a train between the Lodge and the park! Pricey, but not NEARLY as much as a monorail extension!

But you get the drift. No specialized transportation at the moderates except for Port Orleans.

6.) The pool area. There are waterfalls at the Grand Floridian, a mini-water park at the Yacht & Beach Club, a 200 ft. roller coaster-like slide at the Boardwalk...what's the moderates? The only exception to this is at Coronado Springs, with the mayan ruins temple waterfall. This would be a problem with the show factor.

Again, I'm not saying that these conclusions are accurate. I'm saying that these are my impressionsimpressions that the Disney company has given me. THe only "extras" that I have are having seen a few of the photos on Deb Willis' site.

That's the opinion of an outsider. Use it as you care to to further either side of your debate!

EDIT: Oh, and PS to DisneyKidds - same debate! Different words, same debate. Doesn't matter if any opinions have swayed it's basically still the same "Is it worth it?" debate. While this one is for the sake of that question, the other just took it a step further and asked if the worth was the Walt way. (I did that alliteration on purpose....did you enjoy that?)

 

[DisneyKidds]

Good stuff Snacky . I guess someone else is too busy driving to engage in such trivial little details as the whys and wherefores . So let’s dive in and take a look……

…..at Choices.

I will maintain my disposal of the AS/PC. To me, I see no Show at these. Could Walt have done an economy with Show? Sure. How? Don’t exactly know. Would he have? Maybe. Is that another debate (we have already had)? Sure is.

But let’s look closer at the moderates. While the Show may be different – different acts presented in a different way – that Show is just as entertaining and just as good in the “mods” as it is in the “deluxe”. You don’t seem to be disputing that. They take you somewhere. They tell you a story. They immerse you in the detail. You do have a problem with how the physical structures effect your perception of the Show. Fair enough – it is not something you prefer and to you it represents bad Show. I tend to disagree. You invoke Motel 6 in painting your picture. Have you actually walked around POR Riverside. I’ll use that as one example. You couldn’t recreate the old southern mansions or the back woods bayous of the south in a single, lobby accessed, elevator served structure. Wouldn’t invoke the ‘feel’. Wouldn’t come close to realistic. Wouldn’t be in keeping with the intended Show. The free standing structures actually are a part of the Show. The lawns and woods in and around those separate buildings are crucial to the Show. Now, not everyone is going to like every show – but this Show at Riverside feeds off of the buildings the way they were designed. Same can be said of CSR with the great variety of structures. Looking at POR French Quarter – imagine, if you will, Mardi Gras. You wander the streets lined with buildings, two and three story buildings with balconies galore, people hanging all about, beads and breasts flying about , etc., etc. Now, the courtyards and such at French Quarter don’t have all that activity, but the architecture invokes an environment that could accommodate such activity. How would you create that in a single, lobby accessed, elevator served structure. Can’t do it. The buildings you despise actually are part of the Show. CBR – I’ll give you that one as the only differentiator between countries is color. But that is something that is very much present in the structures of the islands. The color paints a picture and creates an environment. So I say that the “mods” aren’t less of a Show, they are just a different kind of Show. As for courtesy, well – isn’t it great to have all the choices that you have to see a great Show? I see lots of good choices for those who want to spend less. If you want to spend less you probably have more choice. How many “moderate” rooms are in inventory? Probably more than “deluxe” rooms. If Baron had his way this choice wouldn’t even exist.

…..at Themeing.

Well – you attack the AS and PC – as well you should. While there is a theme, I don’t see it as ‘Disney’ theme. I have been talking “moderates” anyway. Noticed you didn’t have much to criticize in the themeing there .

…..at Convenience.

Two or three minutes to the restaurant. Doesn’t even happen at the “deluxe” resorts. Some of those resorts are BIG. Third floor Garden Wing at the far end of the hall. The farthest Row House at the Poly, Conch Key at the GF, any outbuilding at a “mod” – all the same difference, and just about the same time factor to the restaurant. In very few Disney resorts do you go into the lobby and take an elevator to access your room. Yes, you do at BW, YC, and BC and CR Tower. However, the hallways, etc. are sooo long here that it takes 5 or 10 minutes to get to the lobby. You see, the “mods” aren’t all that inconvenient, comparatively speaking. Sometimes it is nice not to have to wait for an elevator.

As for transportation efficiency and convenience – it is hard for me to say. We always rent a car. I have heard the horror stories. I have also heard of very good experiences using the transportation available at the “mods”. Guess what – same can be said of the “deluxe” resorts. They may have quick access to one park – but to other parks there is no difference compared to the “mods”. Furthermore, that quick access to one park isn’t always so quick. It has taken us as long as 30+ minutes to get from the CR to the MK ON THE MONORAIL!!! YES – 30+ MINUTES!!! ON THE WONDERFUL MONORAIL!!! AND IT WASN”T DUE TO ANY BREAKDOWN!!! I AM POSTING LIKE BARON NOW!!! HELP!! STOP ME!!! TAKE AWAY MY CAPS AND EXCLAMATIONS!!! That leads to another topic – how the monorail is OVERRATED!! Yeah, it is cool – but convenient and quick, not always. Ok – I’ve gotten control of myself. Back to the topic - most bus trips from a “mod” don’t take that long. Again, from a practical standpoint the “mods” aren’t all that inconvenient.

…..at Elevators and Trudging

As discussed above, every Disney resort, no matter how economical or expensive, involves trudging. As for luggage – bell services will handle your bags at the “mods” just as they do at the “deluxe”. The “mods” have elevators as well, so you don’t have to take the stairs.

…..at Specialized Transportation.

Touché – but just a glancing blow . As I pointed out, the specialized transportation at many of the hotels isn’t always so special. Yes, it is there, but I guess that is part of why you pay a premium. I do believe it is acceptable to have certain things available at a hotel that costs more. Does that undermine the ‘experience’ and Show at the resorts that don’t have it – I don’t think so. It is just different.

…..at Pools.

Hate to nit pick, but GF waterfalls are a VERY recent addition. The regular pool there always irked us as it is so damn BORING. Worse than any “mod”. You know how I feel about the CR pool – NOTHING. Sure, it may be a rehab, however, they didn’t tear out the old and put an entirely new one in, did they? Poly was recently redone but as probably a little nicer than some others to begin with. There is a waterfall end at CBR. There are water slides at POR and CSR. They all look very nice and the Show is just as good. The ride on the slide may be shorter, but that is what the extra bucks a night buy you. Sorry.

So at the “mods” you pay less for a smaller room, and a shorter slide, and less sit down food options, no health club, less boat transportation, no monorail, etc. However, the bigger room, the extra restaurant, the longer slide, the health club, the marina, the monorail station, etc. all cost money. The resorts that have them should cost more. However, while all those things add different elements to the ‘experience’, there are elements that the “mods” have that are unique and provide a whole other aspect to the ‘experience’. But what they all have in common is Show (and Safety, and Courtesy, and Efficiency, and Touch, and Tradition….). I like the variety of Show. I can only see the same movie so many times before I need a break. While I like chocolate, strawberry ice cream is nice now and again. While blue is my favorite color, sometimes a red…… you get the drift . OK - we are DVCers now so we don't take in as much of the variety of Show any more - but we did stay at CSR on our last trip and it was great (and only cost $89 a night, including taxes).

ps - same topic, different question = different debate - and even if it was the same debate I'd add something new to the debate with each post .