DCL/Disney Business model change setup for long term failure?

[mevelandry]

I agree and think people like Dave Ramsey, who is more popular than ever, are a threat to Disney's business model.

Yes! Ramsey and also The Minimalists (which we are fans of...) and it has a big impact on our life and are part of the reasons we are slowly leaving Disney.

 

[Dug720]

You know, as I'm recalling the whole story it was "A place where parents and children could play together" because parents were not allowed to ride the things at the park he would take his girls to and he was relegated to sitting on a bench and watching them - nothing was said about price/affordability. But everyone assigns that to the thought.

 

[Lisa F]

You know, as I'm recalling the whole story it was "A place where parents and children could play together" because parents were not allowed to ride the things at the park he would take his girls to and he was relegated to sitting on a bench and watching them - nothing was said about price/affordability. But everyone assigns that to the thought.

I didn't say it was about pricing. I said it was about marketing, and that's why people will pay disney's high prices. And I think Disney fans are pretty die hard... even if someone gets priced out and moves to another line, if they get wind of DCL being the same price as RCCL or NCL, they will be back... with the extra bonus feeling that they are getting a HUGE bargain.

I don't think they are under any obligation to make things affordable for everyone - said as a single mother who took a 5 year break from the parks because even WITH DVC I could not afford it while getting back on my feet. I also haven't cruised since 2005.

 

[Dug720]

I didn't say it was about pricing. I said it was about marketing, and that's why people will pay disney's high prices. And I think Disney fans are pretty die hard... even if someone gets priced out and moves to another line, if they get wind of DCL being the same price as RCCL or NCL, they will be back... with the extra bonus feeling that they are getting a HUGE bargain.

I don't think they are under any obligation to make things affordable for everyone - said as a single mother who took a 5 year break from the parks because even WITH DVC I could not afford it while getting back on my feet. I also haven't cruised since 2005.

No, you didn't. But others have. I didn't quote or tag anyone.

 

[cyclenut]

What I believe Disney is targeting is the premium vacation market. Their costs, and I mean operating costs, are too high to be an affordable vacation. They have built a reputation on quality and service. Their parks and ships are the cleanest and best maintained places on earth. The entertainment is top notch, everywhere you go with Disney. The resorts, even the "bargain" resorts reflect these same values. This is a reputation they need to maintain. It is what makes Disney, Disney. This requires higher prices. Disney strives to provide a lower (not low but lower) cost option for all of its offerings. There are tiers of resorts for WDW. Partner hotels at Disneyland. Multi-day tickets for those planning a longer vacation. Single park tickets for those trying to save by going to only one park at a time. A picnic area for those bringing their own food. Inside staterooms for cruise guests who just want to be on the ship. 3 and 4 night cruises to the Bahamas for those who cannot afford a longer cruise.

Disney also has very high end options for those who are happy to spend their money on the best experience possible. Concierge rooms on ships and at Resorts. Adventures by Disney for those looking to explore the world around them and Club 33 for the very special few.

Disney is in the experience business. More specifically, the vacation experience. They are going to price their offerings in such a way as to keep that experience unique and special for guests. They are not trying to target or exclude any particular class. They are not trying to exclude repeat guests. They are trying to create and maintain such a unique overall vacation experience that you will save your money so that someday, you'll get to experience it too. For some, it becomes a once in a lifetime experience while for others it is their annual vacation. For locals (like I used to be at Disneyland) it is a place to visit every weekend and sometimes just on a day off during the week.

I don't think Disney is creating an unsustainable business model. What would be unsustainable is a model that required that they cheapen the experience.

 

[Lisa F]

It appears 5-day tickets to WDW for a family of 4 (2A, 2K) costs about $1.5K. I don't know how much typical off-site accommodations near WDW would cost, but average hotel rates run about $200/night. Thus, tacking on an additional $1.5K would cost $3K. Throw in another $1.5K for airfares and rental car. The grand total should be about $4.5K (excluding meals, which can vary quite a bit). Can an average family save $1K/year and go on a Disney vacation once every 5 years? I don't think it's that difficult if one is fiscally responsible.

LAX

It's not. I'm a single mom and I can save more than that toward vacation. I have fewer expenses because it is just two of us (tickets are half that. only two plane tickets etc) and I bought into DVC back in 1999 so my accommodations are paid for (I split it with his dad and don't even notice the $35/month in maintenance that I pay.) I can pay for a trip about every 2 years without a major impact on my budget. If I had to pay for rooms it would probably add another year.

 

[Lisa F]

No, you didn't. But others have. I didn't quote or tag anyone.

I see that now. It always amazes me the level of entitlement people feel toward a Disney trip. For 3 years I felt like I would never be able to afford it again and then when I started having a little bit of extra money I realized I could if I saved for it so I started saving for it and by year 5 I was able to go. I used to go very very frequently when I was married, dual income, no kids. We had 350 DVC points at one point (down to 130 now that we share) but honestly the 2014 trip that I saved and worked so hard for was the best trip of my life... or maybe it was the 2016 trip that my son and I eagerly looked forward to and planned for 2 years. Or maybe it will be the 2018 cruise/parks combo. Not sure if it's having to work so hard for them, the long anticipation between trips (years instead of months) or the joy of traveling solo with my son and having it be all about us, but I will say that in spite of all of the griping here about how Disney has gone downhill, my trips are now better than they ever were. I think everyone who thinks Disney is much worse than it used to be or is too expensive should just take a break for a few years. I think sometimes it is perspective and not Disney that is the problem

 

[Lisa F]

I don't think Disney is creating an unsustainable business model. What would be unsustainable is a model that required that they cheapen the experience.

You are spot on with all of it but this in particular is what I was trying to say. They are not making any decisions that are going to bite them in the long term, like letting things decay (the money spent on maintenance now will be much more later to get things back into tip top shape after they start breaking down), selling the their characters and trademarks to other companies to make a quick buck now, which would erode their value later etc. All they are doing is what the most simple economics say to do... raising prices with huge demand.

 

[BartmanLA]

Case in point, when Walt opened Disneyland in 1955, admission for adults was $1 and for kids was $.50, at that time the cost of maintaining and developing the parks and attractions was commensurate with the incomes of the era, fast forward six decades, and the sheer cost of operating and maintaining the parks, attractions, rides, paying the employee's for not just DL but WDW, the resorts, and cruise line have risen to the point in order to maintain the quality in each of those venues, prices have to be charged to cover those expenses. I know that there is a profit margin built into any admission, I know that in some ways people think they're trying to take the public for as much as the traffic will bear, but there is also a demand for all of these things, if there wasn't the parks and cruise ships would be deserted. The public also is clamoring for new and fun things to do, more innovative experiences, more choices for entertainment and comfort, those aren't cheap, developing them has to be paid for some way. I have seen many times in this forum where there are calls for "more" new things on the ships, more fun, specific age related experiences, more dining offerings, better shows, nicer staterooms etc, Where does the money come from to pay for those? It has to be acknowledged that DCL has NEVER advertised themselves as a "budget" cruise line, they're promoted as a premium family cruise experience. And the costs and fares reflect that. In order to maintain the quality of these things prices have to reflect what it costs to bring them to the public. SURE I know some prices have risen to the point some people don't feel they can't continue with DCL, I understand that. But as has been pointed out in many of the responses here, not every family has to cruise every year or multiple times per yer, I know personally I don't, we're averaging around one cruise every two years. All I'm trying to say is, if cruising is your thing and you have to sail as often as you can, you either accept and pay DCL's fares, choose another cruise line to satisfy your cruise needs, or find a happy balance about how often you can sail with the Mouse and feel okay about paying the fares. There's no "right" solution or business plan that should keep you from doing the cruising you want to do.

 

[cruiser21]

I think it's because originally, Walt Disney wanted it to be accessible to most families. And it was... But now it isn't.

When I started going 5 years ago, MK tickets were 85$. Now they are 125$. We used to stay at Deluxe hotels for 350-400$/night, now they charge 500-600$/night and sometimes more. Our last Disney Cruise in December 2015 we had a verandah for 1700$ (for 2). Now in 2017, we have an inside room for 1700$ (for 2). It's a huge price difference and it's just gonna get worst.

I'm not mad at Disney for raising their prices. The prices are ridiculous because they did not add much to the parks (especially MK) and I am not interested in paying more for something that I have already experimented many times (and starting to get bored with). That would be illogical. (The only reason we are going this year is because we're travelling with my in-laws and they have never been there. We've been talking about this family trip for a long time.)

I love Disney but I'm falling out of love with the way they treat their guests (taking them for granted).

Were going back to WDW after 5 years. The only thing that's really changed is the cost. The only new ride in the mine train. We could afford go every year or twice a year or probably even three times a year if that's what I wanted to do. Why Would I? Why would I want to pay more for a theme park vacation then a European cruise? There are people on these boards that vacation at WDW every year, buy annual passes every year. I don't get how do you not get bored with it? To each their own I guess. My son's really excited about this trip, but even he wouldn't want to go back for a few years.

 

[cruiser21]

I'm intrigued by CB and I'm not even a family who would benefit from those nice (affordable!) suites. They're actually pushing some kind of buttons for me with the theming (Mad Men? Heh). Maybe we'll do a WDW trip sometime and just stay at CB.

We used to stay at Coronado or Port Orleans before a cruise. Those hotels aren't a cheap anymore. They cost what the deluxes used to cost. I can usually get a room at CB for 120.00 or less a night. The hotel is nicer then the mods at Disney World. It has a nice gym, great pool, fun theme. It's a great value.

 

[_auroraborealis_]

Disney is becoming a premium brand. Maybe not full blown (i.e., "look at me, carrying my Coach bag to the PTO meeting!"), but it's a class signal brand.

 

[cgolf]

I didn't say it was about pricing. I said it was about marketing, and that's why people will pay disney's high prices. And I think Disney fans are pretty die hard... even if someone gets priced out and moves to another line, if they get wind of DCL being the same price as RCCL or NCL, they will be back... with the extra bonus feeling that they are getting a HUGE bargain.

I don't think they are under any obligation to make things affordable for everyone - said as a single mother who took a 5 year break from the parks because even WITH DVC I could not afford it while getting back on my feet. I also haven't cruised since 2005.

You are obviously very pro Disney and I understand that. My point is that I don't care who they make this affordable to, as a non Disney loving person they can do what they want.

The point I have always tried to make, as have others is the value of a Disney cruise. This is where we got priced out on what we perceive as a value. If from one year to the next a 2000 dollar cruise goes to 3000 for the same or slightly inferior cruise (less perks) our value system says we will not pay that upcharge for the Disney experience. We can't be the only ones out there that feel this way.

We won't cruise less either, because we aren't as tied to a line as we thought. While we can make a budget work, there are other things that can be done with the 1000 bucks in our lives.

I get that there are people that cruise DCL because it is Disney, I respect that. But there are those that won't. What the split is I don't know, we may be in the minority on not being huge Disney fans.

I will say that on our B2B in 2016 the future cruise desk was the least busy we have ever seen, but could have been an isolated incident. Also since the prices have been increasing, we have seen more commercials on cable networks for DCL where we had never seen any before.

I don't know what it all means which was the true intent of this thread, I had hoped the entitlement line wouldn't work its way into it, but I should have known better.

 

[cruiser21]

You are obviously very pro Disney and I understand that. My point is that I don't care who they make this affordable to, as a non Disney loving person they can do what they want.

The point I have always tried to make, as have others is the value of a Disney cruise. This is where we got priced out on what we perceive as a value. If from one year to the next a 2000 dollar cruise goes to 3000 for the same or slightly inferior cruise (less perks) our value system says we will not pay that upcharge for the Disney experience. We can't be the only ones out there that feel this way.

We won't cruise less either, because we aren't as tied to a line as we thought. While we can make a budget work, there are other things that can be done with the 1000 bucks in our lives.

I get that there are people that cruise DCL because it is Disney, I respect that. But there are those that won't. What the split is I don't know, we may be in the minority on not being huge Disney fans.

I will say that on our B2B in 2016 the future cruise desk was the least busy we have ever seen, but could have been an isolated incident. Also since the prices have been increasing, we have seen more commercials on cable networks for DCL where we had never seen any before.

I don't know what it all means which was the true intent of this thread, I had hoped the entitlement line wouldn't work its way into it, but I should have known better.

Not all, but many of the posters on here who get very defensive about their Disney haven't done that many cruises on DCL or anyone else. I have a feeling many of them will be back here after 10+ cruises complaining about how they can't believe the cruise they did 2 years ago is 2k more. What causes people to be so defensive. Is it fear? insecurity? I've never felt the need to build up or tear down any cruise line. I look at cost/ value what am I getting for my money. Sometimes it's Disney and sometimes it's not. I really don't care what other people think. Carnival get bashed all the time. I like it, but I'm not going to defend them. The only thing that matters to me is what I like. There obviously many people that like them their ships are full. Same goes for DCL there's enough people that feel the cost is worth it to fill the ships. I'm not going to bash DCL for their prices. I find cruises that work for me financially. It could be on DCL or someone else.

 

[Dug720]

And "value" is relative to each person. Just because I don't place the same value in something you do, or you don't place the same value in something I do - that doesn't mean one of us is wrong. We just value different things.

And that is ok.

As to the "experience" line of thinking. Just because someone doesn't have as many cruises or as many lines notched in their belt as someone else doesn't make their opinions or values less valid. For some of us, we know we have found what we value early on - others need to play the field to find what works for them. Why is it ok for you, cruiser21 to be able to say "The only thing that matters to me is what I like" but not the rest of us? Some of us are clear that DCL is what we like.

And we all have choices and can make those based on what each of us like and value.

And that is ok.

 

[cruiser21]

I think to have an opinion on something you have to have experienced it. How else do you form an opinion. If you've done one DCL cruise how do you know it's the best value out there? Yes everyone entitled to an opinion, but as a consumer I only value other people's opinions that are based on actual experience.
An example I've never been in a Tiffanys so I'm not really qualified to say if that's a good addition to the Fantasy or not.
I've never said that it's not ok to say the only thing that matters is what I like. I think it's great if people say it. It's the getting defensive or offended if other people find fault in something you like that I don't get. You should feel confident in you choices.

 

[cgolf]

I am ducking out of this thread, but it has been interesting. It is awesome that we all have different values in life and thank goodness for that or the world would be a really boring place.

Cheers
cgolf

 

[Sanchez]

Disney is becoming a premium brand. Maybe not full blown (i.e., "look at me, carrying my Coach bag to the PTO meeting!"), but it's a class signal brand.

They are priced like a premium brand but they do not deliver a premium product. They have an experience that people want and are able to charge a five star premium and deliver a three star product.

I agree with some others that the primary target is young families looking for that once in a lifetime experience. Certainly there are others who value the Disney brand or are significantly influenced by Disney marketing who will repeat as customers.

 

[Dug720]

I think to have an opinion on something you have to have experienced it. How else do you form an opinion. If you've done one DCL cruise how do you know it's the best value out there? Yes everyone entitled to an opinion, but as a consumer I only value other people's opinions that are based on actual experience.
An example I've never been in a Tiffanys so I'm not really qualified to say if that's a good addition to the Fantasy or not.
I've never said that it's not ok to say the only thing that matters is what I like. I think it's great if people say it. It's the getting defensive or offended if other people find fault in something you like that I don't get. You should feel confident in you choices.

As I said, VALUE is subjective. If someone has gone on a Disney cruise and likes it and feels it is worth it, THEY MAY NOT WANT TO GO ON SOMETHING ELSE AND THAT IS FINE.

I love Gloria Estefan's quip from an interview when someone asked about Emilio being the only guy she ever dated: "I don't have to go try hamburger to know I've got filet mignon at home."

DCL is a fit for some people and once they find it, they know they have found IT. Others feel like they need to try other lines to find the best fit for them. (You could say the same thing about any line - for some people Carnival is a perfect fit,and they might know after one cruise or after several different lines. Insert any other cruise line in there.) Some people KNOW when they've found it. Others, as I said, feel like they need to play the field to find what's best.

Nothing is wrong with either approach.

 

[cruiser21]

I'm going to bough out of this thread too. I can only be told so many times that value is subjective. I think we're all in agreement on that. Now people feel the need to yell it like we're not getting what they are trying to say the first 20 times it was posted. It was an interesting thread to start, but I think it's run it's course...at least for me it has.