Davids DVC: Rental reimbursement or rescheduling?

[yankeesfan123]

I think most of us, lawyers or not, can comprehend what "not limited to" means. But it certainly doesn't mean, "includes anything the contract drafter wants it to include after the fact."

"This would include but is not limited to operations of resort restaurants, pools, play grounds and other amenities controlled by the Resort." I don't claim to know how for sure a particular court, in Florida or elsewhere, would interpret this, but I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest they might not be that impressed with an argument that this was intended to include the resort being completely shut down, when "resort shutdown" would be an obvious inclusion if intended.

The word you actually should’ve bolded in your statement to make your argument stronger is “other”... that could imply that the only things covered are amenities, even if not listed.

 

[Nonsuch]

Anyone know if there’s a comptroller to verify Disneyland VGC ownerships?

https://cr.ocgov.com/recorderworks/Unfortunately, Orange County California charges $1/page to view documents.

 

[LAX]

I think most of us, lawyers or not, can comprehend what "not limited to" means. But it certainly doesn't mean, "includes anything the contract drafter wants it to include after the fact."

"This would include but is not limited to operations of resort restaurants, pools, play grounds and other amenities controlled by the Resort." I don't claim to know how for sure a particular court, in Florida or elsewhere, would interpret this, but I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest they might not be that impressed with an argument that this was intended to include the resort being completely shut down, when "resort shutdown" would be an obvious inclusion if intended.

I think you brought up a very critical point, which is the fact that David's contract is subject to interpretation. Ultimately, I think what matters is interpretation of the presiding judge (I am assuming here as I have no law background). Had there been some language discussing what happens in the event of a resort closure (contracts in use by some owners renting privately and at least one broker actually do), then it would be a completely different situation.

Again, I don't mean to sound harsh, but this mess, to some extent, is David's responsibility.

LAX

 

[Galun]

Again, I don't mean to sound harsh, but this mess, to some extent, is David's responsibility.

LAX

Not harsh at all. I am very surprised there is no Force Majeure clause that cover the current situation. I chose David’s rent out my points because I perceive him to be most reputable, and therefore should have the best structured contract. Clearly this is not the case. As I read this thread, some owner‘s private contracts have these clauses.

Personally, I think they screwed up badly as a broker, and if they survive this I will seriously reconsider their competency in having them rent my excess points. Last time I tried direct rental was in 2013 and I remember it being a big hassle to keep checking availability for perspective renters. Not really sure what I am going to do going forward.

 

[LAX]

Not harsh at all. I am very surprised there is no Force Majeure clause that cover the current situation. I chose David’s rent out my points because I perceive him to be most reputable, and therefore should have the best structured contract. Clearly this is not the case. As I read this thread, some owner‘s private contracts have these clauses.

Personally, I think they screwed up badly as a broker, and if they survive this I will seriously reconsider their competency in having them rent my excess points. Last time I tried direct rental was in 2013 and I remember it being a big hassle to keep checking availability for perspective renters. Not really sure what I am going to do going forward.

To be fair, David's has been very good at handling renting points during the good times. The few times I needed to rent out some points I couldn't use, they were rented within a week or so after my requests (I have read even quicker turnaround and my "delays" were partly because I couldn't check my emails multiple times a day). However, from an owner's perspective, if the broker can't "guarantee" payment for my points regardless of what happens to the reservation, then it's of no use to me. The commission has always been advertised as the "cost" for peace of mind. In this mess, I think the owners are getting neither payment (at least not full) nor peace of mind!

LAX

 

[tubtruck]

I got full payment for a 23rd March reservation.

 

[Sandisw]

I got full payment for a 23rd March reservation.

Did you have to re rent your points?

 

[LAX]

I got full payment for a 23rd March reservation.

Count yourself lucky based on what others have reported here. If every owner stuck in this mess eventually gets full payment, I would change my opinion. Even then, I would still have some reservation.

LAX

 

[ziravan]

Not harsh at all. I am very surprised there is no Force Majeure clause that cover the current situation. I chose David’s rent out my points because I perceive him to be most reputable, and therefore should have the best structured contract. Clearly this is not the case. As I read this thread, some owner‘s private contracts have these clauses.

Personally, I think they screwed up badly as a broker, and if they survive this I will seriously reconsider their competency in having them rent my excess points. Last time I tried direct rental was in 2013 and I remember it being a big hassle to keep checking availability for perspective renters. Not really sure what I am going to do going forward.

Even if he had an airtight force majeure clause that clearly spells out that the renter assumes all the risk of a park closure, then what?

How does a business model of “trust us to secure your vacation” survive 5,000 or more renters on social media describing how they got screwed by that model?

I did have a force majeure clause and I’m not worried about my business model because I don’t rent that much, but even I offered to ignore the “no refunds” part of my contract and offered a refund.

David’s contract is ambiguous and he held the pen, and that’s created a distinct lack of clarity. In the end though, no matter what the contract says, he has to make it right with the renters if he hopes to survive. And if he doesn’t survive, the renters are going to be screwed regardless.

I think the true problem lies not in the wording of the contract, but in his unwillingness to allow owners who want to refund or rebook directly to their renters an opportunity to do so.

 

[LAX]

Even if he had an airtight force majeure clause that clearly spells out that the renter assumes all the risk of a park closure, then what?

How does a business model of “trust us to secure your vacation” survive 5,000 or more renters on social media describing how they got screwed by that model?

I did have a force majeure clause and I’m not worried about my business model because I don’t rent that much, but even I offered to ignore the “no refunds” part of my contract and offered a refund.

David’s contract is ambiguous and he held the pen, and that’s created a distinct lack of clarity. In the end though, no matter what the contract says, he has to make it right with the renters if he hopes to survive. And if he doesn’t survive, the renters are going to be screwed regardless.

I might be biased because I am an owner, but if ALL risks are CLEARLY disclosed upfront, I really don't see the brokers "screwing" the customers in that scenario. I would hope that David's and owners come together to help out however they can if that were the case as a gesture of goodwill.

I realize there is no good analogy, but if someone has been warned about potential "loss of investment" prior to buying bargain stocks on a company and the company eventually fails, ending with worthless stock certificates. Did the investor get screwed in that case?

LAX

 

[Sandisw]

I might be biased because I am an owner, but if ALL risks are CLEARLY disclosed upfront, I really don't see the brokers "screwing" the customers in that scenario. I would hope that David's and owners come together to help out however they can if that were the case as a gesture of goodwill.

I realize there is no good analogy, but if someone has been warned about potential "loss of investment" prior to buying bargain stocks on a company and the company eventually fails, ending with worthless stock certificates. Did the investor get screwed in that case?

LAX

Yes, I agree. But, I wonder how many renters would really have gotten into a contract that said, “even if the resort is closed, you will not be given any money back,”

With the rates, I’m not sure. My renter paid around $2100 for a room that would cost $2700 via Disney, given the discount currently. That’s only a $600 savings. Can’t see that being enough to risk if it had included resort closures

 

[Galun]

Even if he had an airtight force majeure clause that clearly spells out that the renter assumes all the risk of a park closure, then what?

How does a business model of “trust us to secure your vacation” survive 5,000 or more renters on social media describing how they got screwed by that model?

With the unprecedented scale, he probably can't handle it even if he had the clause. However, he should have thought of it., and it should be included contract language. He was supposed to reduce my hassle in finding renters (which he was very good at), and provide peace of mind as a commercial broker. Part of the peace of mind comes from the contract. I am merely saying he is not as good as I thought he was. We have now 47 pages of debating what should be done if Disney had canceled the reservation. If that language was included, there would at least have been clarity. Whether it's enforceable due to the unprecedented scope is entirely another matter.

 

[Amymouse13]

My expertise is patents and your claim defines your four corners of the world and there is no expectation to guess what maybe you meant beyond your claim... And I'd never allow some vague open ended statement like or anything similar?? I feel I read contracts fairly well and my take away was I could not cancel my stay for any reason, I could not hold owner or David's liable for harm to myself at Disney, and if chef Mickey's was closed I'm out of luck.

I had success in past disputing charges with credit cards, recently Wells Fargo over an undersized HVAC unit. Was it about 10 months of my life wasted, sure, but I won about $7000. I would never hire an attorney to fight this battle bc it's unlikely even at loss of 4-5k to win me much. The squeaky wheel gets the grease.... Even if it takes learning how to calculate a load calculation... I didn't pay a dime.

I feel if your reservation is cancelled prior to your check-in you your contract was voided.

David's screwed the pooch not having as many owners as possible rebook and terminate as many bad contracts as possible. Had he been able to head off at least 50% of his problems maybe he could survive. But by going party line to everyone especially in middle of financial meltdown... I'd be shocked if every renter wasn't doing a chargeback. Especially after their reservation was cancelled.

 

[LAX]

Yes, I agree. But, I wonder how many renters would really have gotten into a contract that said, “even if the resort is closed, you will not be given any money back,”

With the rates, I’m not sure. My renter paid around $2100 for a room that would cost $2700 via Disney, given the discount currently. That’s only a $600 savings. Can’t see that being enough to risk if it had included resort closures

The rental market will dictate whether the risk is worth the saving. If most people decide it's not worth it even at substantial discount off of direct price from Disney, then the rental market will cease to exist and I will be no worse off than with a market where I as an owner takes on the risk of getting stuck with nearly worthless points.

LAX

 

[Sandisw]

The rental market will dictate whether the risk is worth the saving. If most people decide it's not worth it even at substantial discount off of direct price from Disney, then the rental market will cease to exist and I will be no worse off than with a market where I as an owner takes on the risk of getting stuck with nearly worthless points.

LAX

I think that is what I was trying to say, The savings would have to be a pretty good one in order to risk it all,

Todays prices, IMO, and the deals Disney will be offering, I think will have an impact on rentals where the clause says a resort closure doesn’t qualify them for a refund.

 

[LAX]

I think that is what I was trying to say, The savings would have to be a pretty good one in order to risk it all,

Todays prices, IMO, and the deals Disney will be offering, I think will have an impact on rentals where the clause says a resort closure doesn’t qualify them for a refund.

I am not disagreeing with you. But I wanted to emphasize that a rental market where owners are exposed to risks that we are now seeing won't survive. If that were the case, I imagine most owners would rather gamble with renting directly, which ironically appears to be "safer" in some ways.

LAX

 

[Sandisw]

I am not disagreeing with you. But I wanted to emphasize that a rental market where owners are exposed to risks that we are now seeing won't survive. If that were the case, I imagine most owners would rather gamble with renting directly, which ironically appears to be "safer" in some ways.

LAX

Got it...yes, I will never use a broker again.

 

[Yinn]

I am not disagreeing with you. But I wanted to emphasize that a rental market where owners are exposed to risks that we are now seeing won't survive. If that were the case, I imagine most owners would rather gamble with renting directly, which ironically appears to be "safer" in some ways.

LAX

Less or equal risk and more money. It’s a no brainer

 

[Amymouse13]

I think that is what I was trying to say, The savings would have to be a pretty good one in order to risk it all,

Todays prices, IMO, and the deals Disney will be offering, I think will have an impact on rentals where the clause says a resort closure doesn’t qualify them for a refund.

And uncertainty of this virus and if there will be repeat closures if numbers went up... I'm never planning a trip again I can't completely cancel. Based on number of pandemics in last how many years? H1n1 now this, then SARS and MERS. No way

 

[toniosmom]

I reached out and rebooked my May renters, then sent David's an email. Finally got a response from them. It follows:

"We appreciate you reaching out to the C family to circumvent the long wait times and accommodate their need to move travel dates.


If you want to continue to work directly with the C family, you are more than welcome to do so on the condition that the C family confirm with us, via email, that they are in agreement to work directly with you, relieving David’s Vacation Club Rentals of any further compensation or assistance as this will become a private rental with directly with you. Once this is confirmed, we will promptly pay you the remaining 30%.

We will proceed to contact the C family now and upon receipt of approval from them, we will complete the agreement. Please respond with your acknowledgment."

Wow....you got a response! I did the same thing....rebooked my renters and emailed David's (twice) to update the rental contract and have never heard back from them. I'm getting frustrated.