Davids DVC: Rental reimbursement or rescheduling?

[conandrob240]

Agreed. Look at what Airbnb tried to do to owners and then quickly realize they didn’t have a business if they didn’t retain their owners.

 

[Krandor]

Agreed. Look at what Airbnb tried to do to owners and then quickly realize they didn’t have a business if they didn’t retain their owners.

yep which is why David is only asking owners to return the money and not threatening them.

 

[lovethesun12]

I'm curious now - what are the other DVC rental companies offering owners/renters that is better than this?

 

[Sandisw]

I'm curious now - what are the other DVC rental companies offering owners/renters that is better than this?

I read one company was giving refunds. I read about others working to get owners to rebook for the renters.

 

[MichellT]

My 2c and again I'm not a David's customer -- though I do find value in his service and use his calculator all the time I am a private owner who purchased a points buffer long ago, with the intention of renting out some points each year to offset our dues. Since 2003, I've rented to over 50 families and done almost 100 rentals (we get lots of "repeat" business, right up until people buy their own DVC!). We have met so many families along the way, some of whom have become friends!

Through life changes and job losses and surprise pregnancies and hurricanes and everything that happens to 50 families in 17 years, I thought I had seen it all until a pandemic hit. I posted upthread that we were able to accommodate all of our renters during this crazy time, by working through things individually and making things right. Each case had a little give and take to it but what's important to me is that our renters still have a Disney vacation to look forward to -- even if it's more forward than they planned to look

David has a business that has no inventory -- he match-makes other people's product to a marketed audience, and contracts the matches. If he is not able to honor his own contract then I suspect he will sink because that's the only "product" he ever had. However the contracting isn't the only product which doesn't exist anymore :-( And both from a cash flow and a hands-on-keyboards perspective, David is probably underwater with the work it will take to straighten these reservations out.

Unprecedented times call for creative solutions. I would suggest that David look at all his open contracts through the foreseeable future (pick now through July 1st checkin dates) and mobilize his army of owners to work individually with their own renters to make an attempt to re-book reservations to both parties' satisfaction. For owners and renters doing his job, David should offer in good faith to pay for up to 10% breakage -- that is when the new reservations cost a few more or less points than the original ones (they usually do), he could pony up that cash in compensation for his ending up hands-off.

If the contracts do not currently allow for putting the owners and renters in direct contact, a quick webpage contract "amendment" form where owners and renters enter their contract numbers and approval would solve this problem -- he can individually pick up "matches" where both the owner and renter of the same contract want to work together and share their contact information to move forward.

One thing is clear, which is that businesses which do the wrong thing when the right option is open to them, during a pandemic, will cease to exist in the world we'll all walk back out into when the virus is under control.

 

[momincolorado]

I'm curious now - what are the other DVC rental companies offering owners/renters that is better than this?

I’m not sure it really matters to me what the others are doing; I rented through him. He’s one of the biggest players in the market. And so far, all we have seen from him is an attempt to mitigate chargebacks (travel credit), asking owners to refund or re-rent (not in their current contract) to help to fund this “travel credit” idea and any legitimate questions and comments quickly disappearing from their FB page. Was he not supposed to provide protection, a piece of mind for both sides? As a renter, I personally would never use him again.

 

[Cyberc1978]

The property is deeded in Florida. You being in the UK actually puts you at a disadvantage trying to defend it if it goes that far. But you clearly have your mind made up, so I'm not going to keep trying to explain the problem with your logic.

Could you elaborate why it’s a disadvantage?

 

[Maddiesmum03]

Could you elaborate why it’s a disadvantage?

this is of interest to me also as I am UK based.

 

[McCrae]

I think the contract was voided when the resorts closed. Now there is a valid question of whether he can make the changes he is making with a void contract. I think it certainly wouldn't hold up under scrutiny in court. He'd lose that. But if the contracts are void, are the owners legally obligated to return the money they were paid? This is a mess on so many levels.




The property is deeded in Florida. You being in the UK actually puts you at a disadvantage trying to defend it if it goes that far. But you clearly have your mind made up, so I'm not going to keep trying to explain the problem with your logic.

It’s a question of legal jurisdiction regarding the contract and how it’s enforced. In my case because I signed the contract in the U.K. the U.K. courts have jurisdiction.

 

[Cyberc1978]

It’s a question of legal jurisdiction regarding the contract and how it’s enforced. In my case because I signed the contract in the U.K. the U.K. courts have jurisdiction.

As the contracts are signed digitally wouldn’t the majority or close to everyone(renter and owner) signing a contract be in their home country?

 

[McCrae]

As the contracts are signed digitally wouldn’t the majority or close to everyone(renter and owner) signing a contract be in their home country?

It's unclear, especially with international contracts. Usually with International contracts the default position is UK law. Normally in civil matters the party making the claim would need to do it in the jurisdiction of person they are claiming against. Court papers cannot be served electronically. All initial costs would need to be paid by the person pursing the claim. An international civil claim would cost the person making the claim more than they would receive back. It's not going to happen.

 

[lovethesun12]

I’m not sure it really matters to me what the others are doing; I rented through him. He’s one of the biggest players in the market. And so far, all we have seen from him is an attempt to mitigate chargebacks (travel credit), asking owners to refund or re-rent (not in their current contract) to help to fund this “travel credit” idea and any legitimate questions and comments quickly disappearing from their FB page. Was he not supposed to provide protection, a piece of mind for both sides? As a renter, I personally would never use him again.

I guess so. I rented as well (not him, and my stay is not cancelled but I feel it will have to be) and I have a different view. I'm not with David's but kind of wish I was right now because I would know for certain I would be offered that option, and it wouldn't fall back on just *hoping* my owner could/would rebook my stay. People are saying DVC is/will be limited but I've looked at availability and I could stay in August, October, November or Christmas right now, but I would have to be flexible with the resort which I would be fine with.

As a renter I was feeling good about the owner trying to do the right thing but after reading these responses and people wanting to stick it to David's and planning to walk away with their 70% and all their points I'm now wary. If David's doesn't have points to rent or money to refund the renter will automatically take the entire loss, when it is everyone's fault (and no one's fault) this happened. In this case it will force the renter to look for options - chargebacks/insurance/small claims court - all headaches and unnecessary really.

David's can't agree to pay the 30% upfront now for the same reasons he can't on any other day. It isn't the owners fault the reservation was cancelled but it isn't David's either. If he pays everyone 30%, he would run into the same problems of paying 100% to everyone if the resorts weren't cancel (default on dues, cancellations, etc).

 

[CraigInPA]

It's unclear, especially with international contracts. Usually with International contracts the default position is UK law. Normally in civil matters the party making the claim would need to do it in the jurisdiction of person they are claiming against. Court papers cannot be served electronically. All initial costs would need to be paid by the person pursing the claim. An international civil claim would cost the person making the claim more than they would receive back. It's not going to happen.

I believe there is a jurisdiction clause in David's contract that specifies Canada as the venue. But, as you've correctly pointed out, serving notice on owners outside Canada for a $1000-4000 is not likely to generate any real return for David's. If I got notice David's was suing me in Canada, I'd file a request for a change in venue to Pennsylvania (where I am) or Florida (where the property is). By the time he dealt with that, his legal service and lawyer's fees would have eaten up several thousand dollars. If I got notice that David's was suing me in the US, and it wasn't Pennsylvania, I'd file for a venue change to Pennsylvania and argue that neither David's nor I are in Florida, and his contract has a venue of Canada.

In bankruptcy, the examiner isn't going to go after a bunch of owners located all over the planet to attempt to get them to pay back deposits paid to them by David's because of the expense alone, even ignoring the possibility that the contract is unfavorable to litigation.

 

[lovethesun12]

I believe there is a jurisdiction clause in David's contract that specifies Canada as the venue. But, as you've correctly pointed out, serving notice on owners outside Canada for a $1000-4000 is not likely to generate any real return for David's. If I got notice David's was suing me in Canada, I'd file a request for a change in venue to Pennsylvania (where I am) or Florida (where the property is). By the time he dealt with that, his legal service and lawyer's fees would have eaten up several thousand dollars. If I got notice that David's was suing me in the US, and it wasn't Pennsylvania, I'd file for a venue change to Pennsylvania and argue that neither David's nor I are in Florida, and his contract has a venue of Canada.

In bankruptcy, the examiner isn't going to go after a bunch of owners located all over the planet to attempt to get them to pay back deposits paid to them by David's because of the expense alone, even ignoring the possibility that the contract is unfavorable to litigation.

But would it have to be David's to sue? I would think it would be the renter suing the owner? Now this is a road I wouldn't want to go down but I do know double-dipping is for certain illegal in Canada. I can also see from quick google searches it seems in the USA the same is true - the landlord (owner) has the responsibility to mitigate damages.

 

[Amymouse13]

You know I'm actually kinda surprised no one saw the possibility Disney might be closed as something to write into a contract considering it's Florida... Lots of hurricanes?

The Outer Banks rental contracts very clearly discuss hurricanes. Even despite that many rental companies are trying to sort out some option during this as OBX has blockades in place to prevent non residents. This likely falls under the same disaster order during hurricanes they deal with almost every year. They also link insurance to their contact, click here to add.

I mean I never thought about it when we rented, but seems if your business is based in an area that routinely has hurricanes you might...

A bad contract is a bad contract.

 

[McCrae]

But would it have to be David's to sue? I would think it would be the renter suing the owner?

You need to follow the money. Renters paid David’s, not the owner. The company that David used to pay the owner could potentially claim against the owner. Still need to establish if anyone has liability and if the no refunds/no change clause is valid or not. Due to the complexity , costs and uncertainty of who would win this I can’t see many people going down the legal route. Renters could pay a lot of money just to become a creditor of a bankrupt company.

 

[Mzpalmtree]

You know I'm actually kinda surprised no one saw the possibility Disney might be closed as something to write into a contract considering it's Florida... Lots of hurricanes?

The Outer Banks rental contracts very clearly discuss hurricanes. Even despite that many rental companies are trying to sort out some option during this as OBX has blockades in place to prevent non residents. This likely falls under the same disaster order during hurricanes they deal with almost every year. They also link insurance to their contact, click here to add.

I mean I never thought about it when we rented, but seems if your business is based in an area that routinely has hurricanes you might...

A bad contract is a bad contract.

I do agree with you but I grew up in Central Florida and typically the inland cities don’t have a lot of fear about long time closures from hurricanes. I don’t think it’s been a big risk for them historically—certainly less than the NC outer banks or coastal Florida. A closure would have typically just been a couple of days to restore power, etc—nothing like what we are seeing here. But I do believe it is short sited not to include a clause for it.

 

[McCrae]

You know I'm actually kinda surprised no one saw the possibility Disney might be closed as something to write into a contract considering it's Florida... Lots of hurricanes?

The Outer Banks rental contracts very clearly discuss hurricanes. Even despite that many rental companies are trying to sort out some option during this as OBX has blockades in place to prevent non residents. This likely falls under the same disaster order during hurricanes they deal with almost every year. They also link insurance to their contact, click here to add.

I mean I never thought about it when we rented, but seems if your business is based in an area that routinely has hurricanes you might...

A bad contract is a bad contract.

I think this actually adds to the defence case. Resorts do close, you should be aware of that and take appropriate insurance coverage if it’s a concern.

 

[Sandisw]

I guess so. I rented as well (not him, and my stay is not cancelled but I feel it will have to be) and I have a different view. I'm not with David's but kind of wish I was right now because I would know for certain I would be offered that option, and it wouldn't fall back on just *hoping* my owner could/would rebook my stay. People are saying DVC is/will be limited but I've looked at availability and I could stay in August, October, November or Christmas right now, but I would have to be flexible with the resort which I would be fine with.

As a renter I was feeling good about the owner trying to do the right thing but after reading these responses and people wanting to stick it to David's and planning to walk away with their 70% and all their points I'm now wary. If David's doesn't have points to rent or money to refund the renter will automatically take the entire loss, when it is everyone's fault (and no one's fault) this happened. In this case it will force the renter to look for options - chargebacks/insurance/small claims court - all headaches and unnecessary really.

David's can't agree to pay the 30% upfront now for the same reasons he can't on any other day. It isn't the owners fault the reservation was cancelled but it isn't David's either. If he pays everyone 30%, he would run into the same problems of paying 100% to everyone if the resorts weren't cancel (default on dues, cancellations, etc).

Whatever you are looking at, unless you are a DVC member, is not real time availability.

And you have it backwards, no one wants to stick it to Davids. Davids is the one who is NOT allowing owners, who have control of the points, to help out renters, like you to try and get their vacation scheduled if they can.

Many owners here who have the ability to help, want to help the renter and every day Davids doesn’t put out the word to try and make that connection, availability disappears as owners who have their own reservation reschedule.

I rescheduled my 4 night May trip to October last Friday With 3 nights at one place and one at another, The next day, there was nothing but one night here and there, and every day since.

The longer Davids stands in the way of trying to get owners and renters to try and work it out..which does limit his loses, chargebacks, etc..,the more he is causing owners, like me, to sour on his business model.

 

[Deb & Bill]

Why would an owner cancel the reservation and have the points go into holding? The best thing to do is wait for Disney to cancel, so points are not in holding and may even be unborrowed. Plus remain in compliance with David's contract, so as to avoid refunding the 70% downpayment.

No holding at this point in time. Even if cancelled 30 days or less.