Davids DVC: Rental reimbursement or rescheduling?

[DGsAtBLT]

Insurance is not as cut & dry as you believe it to be, especially in a pandemic.

I've also said it before, but IMO "no refunds" is not the same as a contract not fulfilled.

If insurance was as simple as people have been implying I would have been done with this thread ages ago. That recommended insurance is sending many of us right back to David’s for a refund anyways.

 

[toniosmom]

I finally got tired of waiting and reached out to my renter. She spoke with someone at David's back on March 13th about rebooking in November and they confirmed availability and said they would take care of it. The new reservation is one point different from the existing one. She never heard from them again and was so relieved to get my email. Her reservation was cancelled by Disney, so the points were returned to me. I reached out to David's again....no response, so I went ahead and booked the new reservation. Since David's is aware of the renter's new booking dates, I felt comfortable rebooking it. The renter was so relieved because this stay was a couple of days prior to a cruise (that they already rebooked). Now I just need David's to update the rental agreement and we're all good.

 

[PrincessNelly]

The owner’s contract with the broker HAS been performed for these dates. That contract was to make the reservation and not do anything to cause it to cancel due to your own negligence.

Check. And Check.

I think it’s a silly argument that the owner is an extension of DVCMC but even that argument has sailed. The State of Florida is not allowing check ins. In any case, none of this involves culpability - negligence- on the part of the owner, which was an expressed element of the contract.

Whatever deal the renter had with the broker - the owner is a non-party to that deal. This is why David was telling renters that their contract was void yet telling owners to “follow their hearts” and not their contracts. Both can be and apparently are true at once. The renter may no longer have an enforceable contract, but the owner does and that contract was fulfilled.

If I were an owner here, I would not refund to David’s so that he can issue a worthless travel voucher. I also wouldn’t rebook for a 3rd party. I’d either agree to refund directly to the renter (assuming my points still had some value) or rebook for the renter. If I rebooked directly for the renter, I’d eat the 30%, if through the broker, I would not rebook without being paid in full.

At this point, the argument is whether a renter is entitled to a cash refund & it seems that they are. Whether the owner or David's has to pay that refund is almost a separate issue.

 

[CraigInPA]

But they signed a contract that cannot be performed - therefore the contract no longer exists. Whether it says it is "refundable" or not is irrelevant.

The contract was "performed" by all parties. It became impossible to fulfill due to the act of a third party. That doesn't make it "no longer exist". It makes it impossible to fulfill. You then need to look at the hierarchy of contract law to see how this plays out.

1. was the agreement to fulfill something that was illegal (like killing someone)? No.

2. is there wording in the agreement over what should happen if the agreement becomes impossible to fulfill due to actions of a third party? No.

3. is there wording that contemplates that the agreement cannot be fulfilled? No.

4. did the parties enter into the agreement understanding that the contract may not be able to be fulfilled because of a third party? YES.

4A. Is there wording that apportions loss in the event of a non-fulfilled contract? YES. "no refunds, no changes" terms puts the entire risk of loss on the renter. The important thing is the "no changes" clause, which does not permit the reservation to be changed in any way whatsoever after the agreement is signed. Without wording that states what happens when the resort is closed, the strict language of the contract has to be enforced.

Under consumer protection laws, generally a consumer has to get a value for value received. So, while the 3 way agreement puts the loss on the renter, the separate agreement between the broker and the renter puts the loss to the broker.

 

[Maddiesmum03]

Disney will be cancelling the reservation for you, but if I were you, I would cancel it myself so that whatever points can be banked, can be done quickly, before the banking deadline.

I would also send an email to David's and let him know how many points you have that are unbankable (although he should know that already) and when they expire (again, he should know that already)

If it was me, I would not cancel the reservation, because it would void the contract with David's and they could use that as the reason not to pay the final 30%. Disney will cancel it themselves, before check in day and that should be in time for the point banking deadline if it is end of the month.

 

[meryll83]

What are people’s thoughts on trying to claim via travel insurance vs credit card payment dispute?
Not sure what might be the best route, if it comes to it for me...

I think I might have an excess on the travel insurance claim, even if it is successful, I’m wondering if the credit card is the way forward... but will they expect me to have tried my insurance company first?

 

[vnovabri]

I have a reservation rented for the end of April and it's not yet cancelled. David's email also said not to cancel the reservation.1 I asked David's if my renters would like to rebook, to avoid having to deal with refunding then getting a new rental in place to get another 70% transferred to me but have not heard back. This would also give me a jump before the mad rush to get a summer reservation. My banking deadline is also end of April, although most of the rented points are unbankable. I am sort of stuck in limbo.

Well I heard back. Among other things, they indicated that "Due to the uncertainty of the situation, we are currently holding off on securing reservations in the summer. By having the Disney Vacation Club cancel the reservations, no one is liable and the points will be put into the proper use year for rental.".

If this is true this does not help me much because the majority of the points used for this reservation were banked points and if they arent allowing rentals over the summer then I cannot re-rent my points with them. I guess with all this I will probably return the money, cancel my reservation and try to rebook a rental with someone else.

 

[MICKIMINI]

he whole idea of renting out points that I can't use is so that I don't have to worry them at all afterwards. If I am still faced with similar risks, then I might as well just gift them to friends and family.

Yes, agreed - that is why we use a broker (or used) so we don't have to deal with anything. From now on, longer stays, bigger villas and gifting extra points. I will only rent points with friends that understand the deal and any issues can be resolved because we trust each other and there is no one "blocking" the way!

 

[DGsAtBLT]

Well I heard back. Among other things, they indicated that "Due to the uncertainty of the situation, we are currently holding off on securing reservations in the summer. By having the Disney Vacation Club cancel the reservations, no one is liable and the points will be put into the proper use year for rental.".

If this is true this does not help me much because the majority of the points used for this reservation were banked points and if they arent allowing rentals over the summer then I cannot re-rent my points with them. I guess with all this I will probably return the money, cancel my reservation and try to rebook a rental with someone else.

That is interesting regarding summer rentals. That really makes their whole rebooking or re-renting for another party much more difficult. I would think there are a lot of owners whose points may have come back usable but not if they aren’t reserving until after summer.

Not that I think they’re incorrect in their thinking, one of the reasons I am strongly against a credit is because I think it’s going to be a lot longer than many believe until we can actually travel again.

 

[Sandisw]

The owner’s contract with the broker HAS been performed for these dates. That contract was to make the reservation and not do anything to cause it to cancel due to your own negligence.

Check. And Check.

I think it’s a silly argument that the owner is an extension of DVCMC but even that argument has sailed. The State of Florida is not allowing check ins. In any case, none of this involves culpability - negligence- on the part of the owner, which was an expressed element of the contract.

Whatever deal the renter had with the broker - the owner is a non-party to that deal. This is why David was telling renters that their contract was void yet telling owners to “follow their hearts” and not their contracts. Both can be and apparently are true at once. The renter may no longer have an enforceable contract, but the owner does and that contract was fulfilled.

If I were an owner here, I would not refund to David’s so that he can issue a worthless travel voucher. I also wouldn’t rebook for a 3rd party. I’d either agree to refund directly to the renter (assuming my points still had some value) or rebook for the renter. If I rebooked directly for the renter, I’d eat the 30%, if through the broker, I would not rebook without being paid in full.

I agree, I think what we have seen over the past few weeks is that the voided contract is more with David’s and renter, but the owner contract with David’s is different.

The piece of owner contract up in the air is the 30% and it’s clear from posts here and elsewhere he is not paying that to owners. He seems to have decided, on his own, that because resort closed, that is not due. Not sure what an owner can due to recover it,

But, I will definitely not be sending any money to David’s. If my August trip for renters can happen because of resort closure I will reschedule them on my own, and tell David’s, I will waive my right to the 30% in exchange for dealing with renter directly.

 

[McCrae]

The cancel for any reason CFAR policies are apparently saying no coverage because the renter didn’t cancel, WDW did and therefore, the renter has recourse under the contract for non-performance.

With these broker contracts, that’s very debatable hence the length of this thread.

If you had this type Of insurance and you didn’t cancel...have to ask why...it wasn’t a sudden surprise.

 

[McCrae]

Insurance is not as cut & dry as you believe it to be, especially in a pandemic.

I've also said it before, but IMO "no refunds" is not the same as a contract not fulfilled.

All that has been established is that it’s a complex matter. It’s not clear if anyone has liability. Good chance renters will be fully refunded through credit card chargeback. Owners potentially lose 30% and David’s are likely lose lose 70%.

 

[badeacon]

This is how David's responded to me when I asked why they were not accepting attempt to rebook original renter.

"after carefully examining the impact of COVID19 on our Guests as well as Disney Vacation Club Owners, that have rented their points, we have been advised that in order to maintain industry standards, maintain consistency for each guest as well as continue with our business model a Travel Credit is being offered to all guest who have a check in impacted by the closure of all Walt Disney Resorts.
In order to facilitate thousand of our guests with the Travel Credit we are asking for The DVC Owner that rented their points for an accommodation that no longer exists to either send the 70% back or to re-rent their points that they are receiving back into their account. The funds from the DVC Owner in conjunction with our commission will be going towards funding the Travel Credits that are allocated to each guest impacted."

 

[McCrae]

What are people’s thoughts on trying to claim via travel insurance vs credit card payment dispute?
Not sure what might be the best route, if it comes to it for me...

I think I might have an excess on the travel insurance claim, even if it is successful, I’m wondering if the credit card is the way forward... but will they expect me to have tried my insurance company first?

Credit Card charge back is the easier path.

 

[MICKIMINI]

In my v


In my view, the owner has the useless points. I agreed to rent points for very specific dates. This did not occur (for arguments sake). The points were put back into the owners account by Disney. The owner has the points and the money. The renter has no points and lost their money.

That being said, it seems like all owners and renters are doing their best to help each other out. Hopefully brokers don’t get in the way.

...the problem is we paid the broker to be "in the way" and it is not clear if as owners we are somehow breaking the contract by contacting the renter directly. The brokers chose to be in business by being "in the way".

 

[Sandisw]

If you had this type Of insurance and you didn’t cancel...have to ask why...it wasn’t a sudden surprise.

From the reports I have read, the companies seem to be telling renters the resort closure, whether they are saying they canceled or not, automatically means its no longer a non-refundable expense. That is what they are dealing with.

So, as soon as Disney announces the resort closing, CFAR says the renter can’t cancel, because Disney already did.

 

[DGsAtBLT]

This is how David's responded to me when I asked why they were not accepting attempt to rebook original renter.

"after carefully examining the impact of COVID19 on our Guests as well as Disney Vacation Club Owners, that have rented their points, we have been advised that in order to maintain industry standards, maintain consistency for each guest as well as continue with our business model a Travel Credit is being offered to all guest who have a check in impacted by the closure of all Walt Disney Resorts.
In order to facilitate thousand of our guests with the Travel Credit we are asking for The DVC Owner that rented their points for an accommodation that no longer exists to either send the 70% back or to re-rent their points that they are receiving back into their account. The funds from the DVC Owner in conjunction with our commission will be going towards funding the Travel Credits that are allocated to each guest impacted."

Translation: We are asking the DVC owner to send back the 70% in order to allow us to issue a travel credit so we do not have to send back a single cent issuing a full refund to the renter, allowing us to live another day.

Renters feels pain, owners feel pain, David’s feels nothing.

 

[Sandisw]

Translation: We are asking the DVC owner to send back the 70% in order to allow us to issue a travel credit so we do not have to send back a single cent issuing a full refund to the renter, allowing us to live another day.

Renters feels pain, owners feel pain, David’s feels nothing.

And, the fact that this is the model, it does two things..makes claims it is a non refundable loss for CFAR harder, and allows him to hope to win CC chargebacks because he is offering renters something for their money,

I am sick to my stomach that I am stuck with his service. First time using, thought it was sooo worth it in how easy it way, and now just don’t like it,

He is going to have lots of angry owners and renters, and that won’t be good for his business. Renters should definitely do one thing only...CC chargeback...even if they lose...especially if they know the owners are being asked to refund money.

 

[DGsAtBLT]

And, the fact that this is the model, it does two things..makes claims it is a non refundable loss for CFAR harder, and allows him to hope to win CC chargebacks because he is offering renters something for their money,

I am sick to my stomach that I am stuck with his service. First time using, thought it was sooo worth it in how easy it way, and now just don’t like it,

We have had multiple really good experiences with them in the past, and they were really great to deal with before this. All the more disappointing to see how poorly this is all being handled.

 

[Marionnette]

Well I heard back. Among other things, they indicated that "Due to the uncertainty of the situation, we are currently holding off on securing reservations in the summer. By having the Disney Vacation Club cancel the reservations, no one is liable and the points will be put into the proper use year for rental.".

If this is true this does not help me much because the majority of the points used for this reservation were banked points and if they arent allowing rentals over the summer then I cannot re-rent my points with them. I guess with all this I will probably return the money, cancel my reservation and try to rebook a rental with someone else.

I guess I’m a much more hardened businessperson.

I would allow Disney to cancel the reservation if they haven’t already. That way, I will not violate my agreement with David’s.

Then I would tell David’s that I would be attempting to re-rent those points on my own before they expire and IF I was successful they would get back their 70%, minus the $4.50/pt commission they charged me for brokering the canceled reservation.