DAS Approval/Denial with New DAS Guidelines START 5/20 WDW & 6/18 DL

[Yinn]

The CM was pushing you to give a specific diagnosis? That seems really strange.

These are the inconsistencies I'm worried about. I don't care about sharing DD's diagnosis, but no CM will have ever heard of it given how rare it is. Focusing on need is much more appropriate.

I would encourage you to just contact them again if that happens. I never named the diagnosis during my call and was never pushed to. I only described how it manifests - symptoms and concerns.

I will also say the reason I called is because the person who normally requests the DAS was in analysis paralysis. Get someone else to call for you if you feel like it will better describe your situation. In certain cases it may even be better as there’s another perspective as you may have normalized your own situation.

 

[Angel Ariel]

The terms are not necessarily interchangeable. Cognitive challenges are neurological in nature, but not all neurological conditions cause cognitive challenges. For example, epilepsy is a neurological diagnosis; one individual with epilepsy may have cognitive impairment but another individual with epilepsy does not.

Except Disney's wording does not use the word cognitive.

"DAS is one of the programs offered at Walt Disney World Resort theme parks intended to accommodate those Guests who, due to a developmental disability like autism are unable to wait in a conventional queue for an extended period of time."

Developmental disabilities can be neurological but not cognitive. They can also be cognitive but not neurological. They can also be both cognitive and neurological.

Disney needs to be consistent with its own application of its policy. If Disney intends to mean a person needs to have an intellectual disability to qualify, then that needs to be clear - but developmental and cognitive aren't interchangeable either, and Disney chose to use developmental.

 

[carlyannek]

I would encourage you to just contact them again if that happens. I never named the diagnosis during my call and was never pushed to. I only described how it manifests - symptoms and concerns.

I will also say the reason I called is because the person who normally requests the DAS was in analysis paralysis. Get someone else to call for you if you feel like it will better describe your situation. In certain cases it may even be better as there’s another perspective as you may have normalized your own situation.

Thanks, I’m going to sleep on it for a few days and see if i’m up for trying again. I can only manage very small doses of the parks so if it doesn’t happen, it isn’t the end of the world. It’s just unfortunate that this is what it has come to.

 

[Angel Ariel]

Thanks, I’m going to sleep on it for a few days and see if i’m up for trying again. I can only manage very small doses of the parks so if it doesn’t happen, it isn’t the end of the world. It’s just unfortunate that this is what it has come to.

:hugs:

 

[Keladry84]

Right, I understand, but i’m not often in a position where describing my disability comes down to semantics. It was one word in a paragraph that clearly explained my needs. When she said that, I clarified that I use them interchangeably. That should have been enough clarification.

I'm autistic and I often use neurological to help explain what autism is to someone unfamiliar with it or someone who classifies it as a mental disorder (which it is not), and neurodivergent is a common term used to describe someone who is autistic.

I'm very confused by if they are specifically saying autism is what the DAS is for, but then in your instance the deciding factor for denial is the adjective "neurological" rather than "cognitive." Both can accurately be used to describe autism so it is odd that one of those would be cause for denial while the other not. I realize your condition might not be on the autism spectrum, but yet if they are using this terminology as a distinguishing factor, it would get me denied simply by how I describe autism.

 

[carlyannek]

I'm autistic and I often use neurological to help explain what autism is to someone unfamiliar with it or someone who classifies it as a mental disorder (which it is not), and neurodivergent is a common term used to describe someone who is autistic.

I'm very confused by if they are specifically saying autism is what the DAS is for, but then in your instance the deciding factor for denial is the adjective "neurological" rather than "cognitive." Both can accurately be used to describe autism so it is odd that one of those would be cause for denial while the other not. I realize your condition might not be on the autism spectrum, but yet if they are using this terminology as a distinguishing factor, it would get me denied simply by how I describe autism.

That’s what I found to be so frustrating. Especially since this person is not a medical professional.

 

[Genie+]

Maybe the terminology matters. If a condition is severe to the point of requesting DAS, it would reason medical advice has already been sought that would result in becoming familiar with the specific terminology. Of course not applicable to every case but could be something that helps them get a better picture of the situation. The terminology cognitive and neurological seems important for differentiating between who is cognitively unable to understand the concept of a queue. Again, that doesn’t apply to every case or DAS granted but does seem to be where Disney thinks DAS is clearly appropriate.

 

[Angel Ariel]

I'm autistic and I often use neurological to help explain what autism is to someone unfamiliar with it or someone who classifies it as a mental disorder (which it is not), and neurodivergent is a common term used to describe someone who is autistic.

I'm very confused by if they are specifically saying autism is what the DAS is for, but then in your instance the deciding factor for denial is the adjective "neurological" rather than "cognitive." Both can accurately be used to describe autism so it is odd that one of those would be cause for denial while the other not. I realize your condition might not be on the autism spectrum, but yet if they are using this terminology as a distinguishing factor, it would get me denied simply by how I describe autism.

Exactly. Even official definitions of autism don't refer to it as a cognitive disorder. It's referred to as developmental and/or neurological. There are autistic people who may also have cognitive impairments, but autism is not considered a cognitive disorder. So it's strange that this CM was requiring use of the word cognitive.

 

[lanejudy]

Right, I understand, but i’m not often in a position where describing my disability comes down to semantics. It was one word in a paragraph that clearly explained my needs. When she said that, I clarified that I use them interchangeably. That should have been enough clarification.

I understand it’s nerve-wracking and difficult for some. However it’s not semantics.

If “neurological” correctly describes your needs that doesn’t mean “cognitive” is a synonym. Explaining you use the words interchangeably doesn’t make them interchangeable. You said your doctor assisted with your statement so maybe ask that person if “cognitive” applies — my guess is no or it would have been the wording used. There may have been more or different follow-up questions if you had used “cognitive” and not necessarily a direct approval.

 

[nalababybear]

The CMs appear to be following set guideline where certain checkboxss need to be met in order to proceed.

This type of flowcharting is typical for nonprofessional to follow and get the majority of calls separated without tier 2 CM review.

So it's beneficial for folk to learn and use THEIR lexicon to get to yes. Saying autism without saying autism appears to be one of those boxes.

Showing the inability to use daily life queues, especially for adult requestors who otherwise live independently is another box

 

[Karin1984]

Wording like this shouldn't be a point of discussion. Even when you have a neurological or cognitive disorder, is it up to the patient to know the specifics between the two?

To me that is for professionals.

If it is clear from context what is meant, it shouldn't matter if it is the wrong technical term. It adds unnecessary stress.

@carlyannek so sorry this happened to you. Take your time and then decide how to go from there.

 

[carlyannek]

I understand it’s nerve-wracking and difficult for some. However it’s not semantics.

If “neurological” correctly describes your needs that doesn’t mean “cognitive” is a synonym. Explaining you use the words interchangeably doesn’t make them interchangeable. You said your doctor assisted with your statement so maybe ask that person if “cognitive” applies — my guess is no or it would have been the wording used. There may have been more or different follow-up questions if you had used “cognitive” and not necessarily a direct approval.

Just trying to share my experience here as a heads-up to others so they don’t have to suffer the same. Respectfully, I don’t care to get into a back and forth with you about my diagnosis and the choice of words my doctor used, because quite frankly that is no one’s business.

 

[TwoMisfits]

She was giving Roz from Monsters Inc. Blank stare, monotone, I felt like my presence was an inconvenience to her. I began by stating that I get overwhelmed discussing my needs and if it was ok I was going to read a statement about my needs prepared by myself and my doctor. She did not respond and just stared at me, eventually nodding once. I outlined why I couldn’t stand in line, she asked no questions and instantly declined me. Stated she would only approve Autism. I said how can you know that if you can’t ask for a diagnosis. She said “you said neurological, not cognitive” then proceeded to ask for a diagnosis, gave me the line about the call not being recorded so she could ask whatever she wanted. It was dehumanizing. I ended the call because I was sobbing.

If she knew your doc helped draft the statement (which you told her at the outset), I can see why she instantly denied. The doc, who should be an expert on explaining needs, did not reference anything that she was in a position to approve. So, it was a denial.

I would not bother calling back until you have visited the parks and used the alternate accommodations - you are unlikely to get a different answer. However, if you feel you were not treated correctly on the call, I would inform Disney of that aspect of the interaction in advance of your park visit.

 

[lanejudy]

Except Disney's wording does not use the word cognitive.

Disney’s wording has been picked apart enough that I’m sure you recognize it is not an exact definition. It’s an example.

Apparently the PPs wording of their needs didn’t hit the “approval” immediately. For whatever reason based on what had been stated the CM as attempting to clarify something — which presumably would have led to additional questions. I won’t begin to speculate further, 1 because I was not party to the initial conversation and 2 the further we dig into such the better a “roadmap” we draw.

 

[Angel Ariel]

Disney’s wording has been picked apart enough that I’m sure you recognize it is not an exact definition. It’s an example.

Apparently the PPs wording of their needs didn’t hit the “approval” immediately. For whatever reason based on what had been stated the CM as attempting to clarify something — which presumably would have led to additional questions. I won’t begin to speculate further, 1 because I was not party to the initial conversation and 2 the further we dig into such the better a “roadmap” we draw.

to be clear, when talking about Disneys definition, I'm primarily referring to the "developmental" piece, because yes, obviously autism is an example.

But the point remains that developmental does not equal cognitive. So whether or not someone hits the word cognitive or neurological in their explanation shouldn't matter. The reports like this one, and others reporting that they were told the DAS guest needs to not "understand what a queue is", are concerning. If these are incorrect applications by CMs of Disney's policy, then they need to be corrected with further training. Otherwise, if intended for cognitive disabilities, that needs to be made clear.

 

[lanejudy]

Respectfully, I don’t care to get into a back and forth with you about my diagnosis and the choice of words my doctor used, because quite frankly that is no one’s business.

Apologies, I did not mean to imply you had to explain more here. In fact, we prefer that you not share details.

If it is clear from context what is meant

Obviously it was not clear by the context of the statement.

As discussed earlier (or maybe on the other thread) ability to advocate for oneself (or a loved one) is a very important skill to learn. Two common statements with potentially very different results:

1. “I cannot stand in a long queue” the response is likely to be “use a wheelchair” with no DAS issued.
2. “I cannot wait in a long queue” will result in further questions about your needs and possibly DAS issued.

But the point remains that developmental does not equal cognitive.

You’re getting stuck on the “definition” which is not fully or clearly defined by Disney. It’s an example. All cognitive disabilities won’t necessarily qualify. All developmental disabilities don’t qualify. All neurological disabilities don’t qualify. Some physical disabilities have qualified. It all depends on the needs.

A question a CM asks may simply lead to other questions; you are reading too much into 1 question for which you don’t even know the rest of the conversation. Other than the PP stated “neurological” and the CM asked “cognitive” we know nothing more about the needs or the diagnosis. Jumping to conclusions doesn’t help anyone.

 

[Angel Ariel]

Apologies, I did not mean to imply you had to explain more here. In fact, we prefer that you not share details.



Obviously it was not clear by the context of the statement.

As discussed earlier (or maybe on the other thread) ability to advocate for oneself (or a loved one) is a very important skill to learn. Two common statements with potentially very different results:

1. “I cannot stand in a long queue” the response is likely to be “use a wheelchair” with no DAS issued.
2. “I cannot wait in a long queue” will result in further questions about your needs and possibly DAS issued.

You’re getting stuck on the “definition” which is not fully or clearly defined by Disney. It’s an example. All cognitive disabilities won’t necessarily qualify. All developmental disabilities don’t qualify. All neurological disabilities don’t qualify. Some physical disabilities have qualified. It all depends on the needs.

A question a CM asks may simply lead to other questions; you are reading too much into 1 question for which you don’t even know the rest of the conversation. Other than the PP stated “neurological” and the CM asked “cognitive” we know nothing more about the needs or the diagnosis. Jumping to conclusions doesn’t help anyone.

All of my responses on this topic have been in response to what the PP shared regarding being pressed to *give* a diagnosis, which has been discussed at length here is not what the process is supposed to be.

What I found interesting was she was pushing for diagnosis information. I said, “can you ask me for my diagnosis?” And she said “over chat, no, because that is recorded, but over the zoom I can ask you whatever I want.”

The PP shared in a further post that the CM stated they could only give DAS for autism, which is also incorrect and inconsistent information coming from the CM.

I would think we can all agree that these responses from the CM are not reflective of what the DAS process has been or is supposed to be, as it's always supposed to have been about need, NOT diagnosis.

 

[prettypatchesmsu]

That’s what I found to be so frustrating. Especially since this person is not a medical professional.

I am so sorry you went through this. I am autistic with other comorbid disabilities. Autism is defined by the NIMH as a neurological and developmental disorder. Neurocognitive impairment is often shown in executive functioning in those with ASD, however there are no diagnostic criteria for cognitive impairment that are specific to ASD.

That CM/Health member was very out of line and inappropriate to force “cognitive” in combination with Autism and reject your correct use of neurological. Also to push you for your diagnosis information is inappropriate and not what DAS is supposed to be founded on which is needs based instead of diagnosis based. I would definitely suggest you email about this encounter as this person needs to be retrained.

I am also tired of people blaming the callers with the “well you must not have explained your needs well enough.” I think we’ve seen enough reports of bad CM behavior that we should give a little grace to the person posting their report instead of arguing with them.

I wish you the best and hope you are able to get your needs met in the future.

 

[lanejudy]

All of my responses on this topic have been in response to what the PP shared

Yes, and my point stands that in virtually all of these reports we don’t actually know the full conversation other than the snatches someone shares in a post.

 

[Angel Ariel]

Yes, and my point stands that in virtually all of these reports we don’t actually know the full conversation other than the snatches someone shares in a post.

I don't think we should need a full conversation transcript to agree that a CM pushing for diagnosis name is inappropriate. I give @carlyannek the benefit of the doubt that her recounting that the CM pushed her to give a diagnosis is accurate.