Curious for opinions

[frndshpcptn]

Another person asking why they would be flying with her and staying in NYC for the weekend, if the DD was going to a dance all the way up at West Point.

It's about two hours from here. How was the DD going to get up to West Point? Bus? Train? Then what - head back to NYC just to fly back to her hometown with Mom and sister? I assume she was planning to head up to West Point on her own?

So basically, the Mom and sister were going to accompany the adult DD on the plane?

That sounds odd to me (but then again, I've been flying on my own since I was 11 and have lived in NYC since I was in my early 20's).

To answer your question - she should not expect to be refunded for the plane tickets. Come here to NYC and have a girls weekend. It's a fun town and there's a lot to do here that's not all that costly.

As for contacting West Point - I don't have an opnion on that.

 

[horseshowmom]

OP, I re-read your first post. I think you are feeling guilty, because you told her to go with her (adult) dd to NYC. I think the majority here seem to feel it's crazy for a mother to fly to NYC with her (adult) dd to chaperone, and this might've been the cause of the about-face of the young man.

No, I have no culpability here! I'm only posting because I'm the curious type.

My response was that if she went, I wouldn't let her go by herself (followed up by, you have to make your own decision). And I would still do the same thing. The only reason I was being asked was because the dad was very opposed to her going (he was also suspicious). I think he has proven exactly how honest and trustworthy he is (which is right along the lines of where I thought he was too start with ).

 

[horseshowmom]

Another person asking why they would be flying with her and staying in NYC for the weekend, if the DD was going to a dance all the way up at West Point.

As I said previously, the only weekend activity that was at WP was the dance. All the other activities were in NYC. I don't know what transportation the young man had to get them back and forth.

That sounds odd to me (but then again, I've been flying on my own since I was 11 and have lived in NYC since I was in my early 20's).

I understand. My own daughter has been flying on her own since she was 10 (and been finding her way around airports since she was 6 and old enough to read the signs - with us with her, of course). Not everybody is that way though.

 

[NHdisneylover]

It is, however, HIS FAULT that the tickets were purchased to start with. JMHO

How is it his fault? Did he steal their credit card to buy them with or hold a gun to their heads?

Looked up West Point Cadets code of Conduct. He's falling short on several of them. Sections 1 and 2.



http://www.usma.edu/committees/honor/info/main.htm

Okay i jsut read those two and I do not see that he does. HOW is this boy being dishonest? He is being totally upfront and honest and letting the girl know he has realized this relationship is not going to work for him. Wouldn't it be dishonest to not tell her and bring her to the dance anyway? The only dishonesty is in the intentions that the OP thinks he had as far as activites with the girl in NYC.

DD13 is reading over my shoulder and floored by this thread. She (like me) cannot wrap her mind around the mom and younger daughter tagging along or the idea that now they suddenly can't handle NYC without the boy there.
She also points out--because she is smarter than I am (I totally did not think of it this way) that Mom will be teaching her daughters that if they are dating a boy and find they are unhappy or uncomfortable in a relationship they should not leave and doing so is bad if the boy has invested substantial moeny in the relationship. The basic message is that if money is spent then the other party is obligated to keep the relationship up. DD is thnking (and I agree) that is not a good message to send to any young lady (or gentleman).

 

[cheermom1]

I have to say that since she is an adult I would not have been involved at all ..I would have talked to dd about the pros and cons and money but i wouldn't have invited myself and a sib...heck when I about her age I did go from Ark. to Pa. for a week with a guy and my mom never one time interfered...she didn't like it but she told me it was my choice and she wasn't going to stop me..she said that sometimes you have to experience life including mistakes if it one...I knew the guy for 3 years so it wasn't like it was a stranger but I learned a lot form that and my mom let me... my sis did the something come to think of it she went form Ar. to NC with her now dh but then he wasn't...she was 19 I think...

my point is that I think sometimes as parents we have to let go and let our kids find their wings and experience things for the experience even if it is a mistake at the time ...

 

[frndshpcptn]

As I said previously, the only weekend activity that was at WP was the dance. All the other activities were in NYC. I don't know what transportation the young man had to get them back and forth.




I understand. My own daughter has been flying on her own since she was 10 (and been finding her way around airports since she was 6 and old enough to read the signs - with us with her, of course). Not everybody is that way though.

Fair enough (re: not everyone being well traveled)

I still think it was way overboard for the Mom and sister to tag along. They weren't going to see the DD during the weekend anyway - they could have just picked her up and dropped her off at her hometwon airport. There's no time like your 20's to learn how to travel on your own (espeically domestically!)

I think the Mom is really reaching to think that the boy has any culpability here for the plane ticket dollars. It wasn't his decision for them to buy the tickets and go to NYC for a weekend.

 

[NHdisneylover]

I have to say that since she is an adult I would not have been involved at all ..I would have talked to dd about the pros and cons and money but i wouldn't have invited myself and a sib...heck when I about her age I did go from Ark. to Pa. for a week with a guy and my mom never one time interfered...she didn't like it but she told me it was my choice and she wasn't going to stop me..she said that sometimes you have to experience life including mistakes if it one...I knew the guy for 3 years so it wasn't like it was a stranger but I learned a lot form that and my mom let me... my sis did the something come to think of it she went form Ar. to NC with her now dh but then he wasn't...she was 19 I think...

my point is that I think sometimes as parents we have to let go and let our kids find their wings and experience things for the experience even if it is a mistake at the time ...

When my now DH and I were 19 we flew to LA together for the summer. My mom's invovelment was pretty much asking if we wanted a ridfe to the airport.

 

[cheermom1]

When my now DH and I were 19 we flew to LA together for the summer. My mom's involvement was pretty much asking if we wanted a ridfe to the airport.

LOL same here my mom took us to the airport...but like I said she did just want to make sure I was sure I really wanted to go with pros and cons but so much of will you be in the same hotel and stuff she knew me ..she just wanted me to be comfortable in a different city and safe...

 

[jen0610]

How is it his fault? Did he steal their credit card to buy them with or hold a gun to their heads?


Okay i jsut read those two and I do not see that he does. HOW is this boy being dishonest? He is being totally upfront and honest and letting the girl know he has realized this relationship is not going to work for him. Wouldn't it be dishonest to not tell her and bring her to the dance anyway? The only dishonesty is in the intentions that the OP thinks he had as far as activites with the girl in NYC.

The memorandum below is a good overview on the following topics:



Why have an honor code? The Investigative and Hearing System The Honor Commitee
A basic description of the Cadet Honor Code The Honor Education Program

MACC-S- HON
8 May 1998

SUBJECT: Information Paper on "Honor" – A Bedrock of Military Leadership


1. Why have an honor code?

a. In professions such as the military where life is endangered by virtue of the institution's purpose, trust becomes sacred and integrity becomes a requisite quality for each professional. An officer who is not trustworthy cannot be tolerated; in some professions the cost of dishonesty is measured in dollars – in the Army, the cost is measured in human lives. The ability of West Point to educate, train and inspire outstanding leaders of character for our Army is predicated upon the functional necessity of honesty. In short, USMA expects its graduates and cadets to commit to a lifetime of honorable living.


b. In order to foster a genuine commitment to honorable living, USMA maintains Honor as a fundamental value. This value is operationalized through the Cadet Honor Code, the Honor Investigative and Hearing System, and the Honor Education System. Although the Honor Code & System "belongs" to West Point graduates, staff and faculty members, and cadets, the special charter of maintaining the Honor Code & System resides with the Corps of Cadets. Since 1922, the elected members of the Cadet Honor Committee have represented the Corps on all matters pertaining to honor and are the stewards of the Code.


Return to Top

2. The Cadet Honor Code.


a. The Cadet Honor Code is defined as "A cadet will not lie, cheat, steal, or tolerate those who do." The Honor Code expresses four succinct prohibitions. On a behavioral level, the Code represents a simple standard for all cadets. On a developmental plane, West Point expects that all cadets will strive to live far above the minimum standard of behavior and develop a commitment to ethical principles guiding moral actions.


b. West Point's core mission is develop leaders of character for our Army. A leader of character knows what is right, and possesses the moral courage to act on that knowledge. The principles of truthfulness, fairness, respect for others, and a personal commitment to maintaining values constitute that fundamental ideal known as the Spirit of the Code. A leader of character will apply the Spirit of the Code when making decisions involving ethical dilemmas.

He asked for the girl to attend. Knew that she was going to be accompanied by her mother and sister. ALL PRIOR to them purchasing tickets. It was PRIOR to the purchase that if he was no longer comfortable with the arrangements, that he should have withdrawn the invite. He didn't. Nor did he, once he had changed his mind, he IGNORED THE SITUATION and ONLY when the girl got in contact with him, did he state he didn't want to go through with the arrangements. So he did not show truthfullness, nor did he show respect for others. Which leads to him the code of living honorably.

This is a West Point Cadet - not the average college sophmore student. It's suppose to be an honor to be selected to study at West Point. These college kids are held to a much higher standard of judgement - physically, educationally and personally.

 

[NHdisneylover]

The memorandum below is a good overview on the following topics:



Why have an honor code? The Investigative and Hearing System The Honor Commitee
A basic description of the Cadet Honor Code The Honor Education Program

MACC-S- HON
8 May 1998

SUBJECT: Information Paper on "Honor" – A Bedrock of Military Leadership


1. Why have an honor code?

a. In professions such as the military where life is endangered by virtue of the institution's purpose, trust becomes sacred and integrity becomes a requisite quality for each professional. An officer who is not trustworthy cannot be tolerated; in some professions the cost of dishonesty is measured in dollars – in the Army, the cost is measured in human lives. The ability of West Point to educate, train and inspire outstanding leaders of character for our Army is predicated upon the functional necessity of honesty. In short, USMA expects its graduates and cadets to commit to a lifetime of honorable living.


b. In order to foster a genuine commitment to honorable living, USMA maintains Honor as a fundamental value. This value is operationalized through the Cadet Honor Code, the Honor Investigative and Hearing System, and the Honor Education System. Although the Honor Code & System "belongs" to West Point graduates, staff and faculty members, and cadets, the special charter of maintaining the Honor Code & System resides with the Corps of Cadets. Since 1922, the elected members of the Cadet Honor Committee have represented the Corps on all matters pertaining to honor and are the stewards of the Code.


Return to Top

2. The Cadet Honor Code.


a. The Cadet Honor Code is defined as "A cadet will not lie, cheat, steal, or tolerate those who do." The Honor Code expresses four succinct prohibitions. On a behavioral level, the Code represents a simple standard for all cadets. On a developmental plane, West Point expects that all cadets will strive to live far above the minimum standard of behavior and develop a commitment to ethical principles guiding moral actions.


b. West Point's core mission is develop leaders of character for our Army. A leader of character knows what is right, and possesses the moral courage to act on that knowledge. The principles of truthfulness, fairness, respect for others, and a personal commitment to maintaining values constitute that fundamental ideal known as the Spirit of the Code. A leader of character will apply the Spirit of the Code when making decisions involving ethical dilemmas.

He asked for the girl to attend. Knew that she was going to be accompanied by her mother and sister. ALL PRIOR to them purchasing tickets. It was PRIOR to the purchase that if he was no longer comfortable with the arrangements, that he should have withdrawn the invite. He didn't. Nor did he, once he had changed his mind, he IGNORED THE SITUATION and ONLY when the girl got in contact with him, did he state he didn't want to go through with the arrangements. So he did not show truthfullness, nor did he show respect for others. Which leads to him not the code of living honorably.

This is a West Point Cadet - not the average college sophmore student. It's suppost to be an honor to be selected to study at West Point. These college kids are held to a much higher standard of judgement - physically, educationally and personally.

Yeah, I read all that. I believe that the RIGHT, HONORABLE CORAGEOUS and MORAL thing to do when you are in the beginings of a relationship and realize it will not work for you is to be honest with the other party about your feelings. Sometimes it is easier to pretend for a while and hope things peter out on their own or that the other party eventually leaves you so you do not have to be the bad guy, but in the long run it is not fair to anyone to do so. In this case it was probably even harder for the boy to be honest about his feelings since he probably knew it would upset the overinvovled mother as well.

I do not think it is deceitful nor disrespectful to break a date with lots of advance notice when you relaize the relationship is not right. I do think it is a bit of both to jump at the chance to go to the dance and NYC with no intention of having any relationship (not physical mind you) with the boy. Sounds to me kind of like the girl was using the boy to get to go to the event.

 

[dakcp2001]

The memorandum below is a good overview on the following topics:



Why have an honor code? The Investigative and Hearing System The Honor Commitee
A basic description of the Cadet Honor Code The Honor Education Program

MACC-S- HON
8 May 1998

SUBJECT: Information Paper on "Honor" – A Bedrock of Military Leadership


1. Why have an honor code?

a. In professions such as the military where life is endangered by virtue of the institution's purpose, trust becomes sacred and integrity becomes a requisite quality for each professional. An officer who is not trustworthy cannot be tolerated; in some professions the cost of dishonesty is measured in dollars – in the Army, the cost is measured in human lives. The ability of West Point to educate, train and inspire outstanding leaders of character for our Army is predicated upon the functional necessity of honesty. In short, USMA expects its graduates and cadets to commit to a lifetime of honorable living.


b. In order to foster a genuine commitment to honorable living, USMA maintains Honor as a fundamental value. This value is operationalized through the Cadet Honor Code, the Honor Investigative and Hearing System, and the Honor Education System. Although the Honor Code & System "belongs" to West Point graduates, staff and faculty members, and cadets, the special charter of maintaining the Honor Code & System resides with the Corps of Cadets. Since 1922, the elected members of the Cadet Honor Committee have represented the Corps on all matters pertaining to honor and are the stewards of the Code.


Return to Top

2. The Cadet Honor Code.


a. The Cadet Honor Code is defined as "A cadet will not lie, cheat, steal, or tolerate those who do." The Honor Code expresses four succinct prohibitions. On a behavioral level, the Code represents a simple standard for all cadets. On a developmental plane, West Point expects that all cadets will strive to live far above the minimum standard of behavior and develop a commitment to ethical principles guiding moral actions.


b. West Point's core mission is develop leaders of character for our Army. A leader of character knows what is right, and possesses the moral courage to act on that knowledge. The principles of truthfulness, fairness, respect for others, and a personal commitment to maintaining values constitute that fundamental ideal known as the Spirit of the Code. A leader of character will apply the Spirit of the Code when making decisions involving ethical dilemmas.

He asked for the girl to attend. Knew that she was going to be accompanied by her mother and sister. ALL PRIOR to them purchasing tickets. It was PRIOR to the purchase that if he was no longer comfortable with the arrangements, that he should have withdrawn the invite. He didn't. Nor did he, once he had changed his mind, he IGNORED THE SITUATION and ONLY when the girl got in contact with him, did he state he didn't want to go through with the arrangements. So he did not show truthfullness, nor did he show respect for others. Which leads to him not the code of living honorably.

This is a West Point Cadet - not the average college sophmore student. It's suppost to be an honor to be selected to study at West Point. These college kids are held to a much higher standard of judgement - physically, educationally and personally.

Going forward with a date in which he was no longer interested would have also been dishonorable. It is all in how you interpret these documents. Leading the girl on once he realized it was going to work out would have been dishonorable.

I think this kid made the right decision. Run! lol. Being honest in not wanting to take her anymore is totally honorable. There is no law against changing your mind. ANd again, ruining someone's future or career over a dance is ludicrous. If the family were to call the school, the school will get wind of the crazy and they will prob be telling this kid he made a good decision breaking it off.

EDIT Nh disney we posted the same thing at the same time! lol

 

[horseshowmom]

He asked for the girl to attend. Knew that she was going to be accompanied by her mother and sister. ALL PRIOR to them purchasing tickets. It was PRIOR to the purchase that if he was no longer comfortable with the arrangements, that he should have withdrawn the invite. He didn't. Nor did he, once he had changed his mind, he IGNORED THE SITUATION and ONLY when the girl got in contact with him, did he state he didn't want to go through with the arrangements. So he did not show truthfullness, nor did he show respect for others. Which leads to him the code of living honorably.

This is a West Point Cadet - not the average college sophmore student. It's suppose to be an honor to be selected to study at West Point. These college kids are held to a much higher standard of judgement - physically, educationally and personally.

That's my perspective in a nutshell - well said.

I certainly understand everybody's opinion on this. The poll results are interesting. I suspect that the ones who voted for anything other than drop it do see it as a matter of honor. I understand that not everybody looks at things the same. I think he's proven what I thought about him to start with. I just hate that my friend's daughter was hurt because she was kind enough to give him a second chance and actually believe that he had changed. He obviously has not.

 

[NHdisneylover]

EDIT Nh disney we posted the same thing at the same time! lol

See it is not so off base of a way to think if two random people have pretty much the same instant reaction

 

[NHdisneylover]

That's my perspective in a nutshell - well said.

I certainly understand everybody's opinion on this. The poll results are interesting. I suspect that the ones who voted for anything other than drop it do see it as a matter of honor. I understand that not everybody looks at things the same. I think he's proven what I thought about him to start with. I just hate that my friend's daughter was hurt because she was kind enough to give him a second chance and actually believe that he had changed. He obviously has not.

I voted drop ot and also see it partly as a matter of honor.

On another note, the more I think about it the more I really hope you will encourage your friend to go to NYC with her girls anyway. It sounds like her girls really need more life experience and this would be a great way for mom to help them learn to handle things so that if another such thing happens then the DD could go on her own to wherever her friend is.

 

[robinb]

The memorandum below is a good overview on the following topics:

I read that before but even with the parts you bolded I fail to see where being an inconsiderate jerk is a violation of the code of honor.

 

[frndshpcptn]

I voted drop ot and also see it partly as a matter of honor.

On another note, the more I think about it the more I really hope you will encourage your friend to go to NYC with her girls anyway. It sounds like her girls really need more life experience and this would be a great way for mom to help them learn to handle things so that if another such thing happens then the DD could go on her own to wherever her friend is.

I completely agree with this!

 

[crashbb]

I completely agree with this!

I do as well.

 

[Mickey Fliers]

Sorry, but this boy's behavior does not violate any honor code. It might make him a jerk, but the army won't care one bit. If every cadet or midshipman that broke girl's heart was violating the honor code, no one would ever graduate.

 

[justhat]

This is a 20yo boy, right? How honorable are 20yo boys in general? I don't mean to say they are all liars, sneaky, whatever, but they've been known for immaturity to say the least. My BIL is 21yo and has had 3 GFs in the past 3 years. If this were him, I could easily see him dating GF X, inviting her to a dance, in the meantime they breakup, he then invites girl Y, whom he starts dating soon thereafter.

What I would think is that while he was willing to deal with the girl's mom and sister when he first heard about it, he probably got back to WP, talked to his friends about the dance, his friends probably all advised he run from the 20yo who can't go anywhere without Mommy, and he got freaked out, leading to uninviting her. Doesn't seem that odd to me, nor does it really seem dishonorable.

And why the mom can't take the kids to NYC is still beyond me entirely. Having never traveled before or not, she was going, she paid for the hotel and airfare already so expenses shouldn't not be part of the issue. So they all get on the plane as planned, even if they know nothing at all about traveling or NYC in general, and arrive at their hotel, ask at the check-in desk for some info, and be on their way touring. What was the boy going to tell them that they can't find out by asking people once they are there, or gasp, researching in a guide book or online?

 

[NHdisneylover]

What I would think is that while he was willing to deal with the girl's mom and sister when he first heard about it, he probably got back to WP, talked to his friends about the dance, his friends probably all advised he run from the 20yo who can't go anywhere without Mommy, and he got freaked out, leading to uninviting her. Doesn't seem that odd to me, nor does it really seem dishonorable.

Sounds about right to me