CRO v. Points Checks and Balances

[WilsonFlyer]

What is the check and balance system in place to make sure CRO is getting their share/percentage only and not points rooms?

I've often wondered this but have never really seen an answer.

I would think I should be able to walk up the counter at any DVC and ask to see the day's CROs v. Points rooms. I'm sure I can't but I should be able to.

What's the deal on this? The reason I ask is that it seems every time we meet someone at a DVC resort, they are not members but are staying on cash. It just seems to me that we ought to be meeting a LOT more members than cash guests and that is NOT the case?

What keeps it all en-check? What gives? I swear to God I think CRO gets priority in booking and NUMBER of rooms over owners. I wish I could prove it. I'm sure if I could, we'd all be rich so it must not be true but where's the accountability?

 

[Dean]

What is the check and balance system in place to make sure CRO is getting their share/percentage only and not points rooms?

I've often wondered this but have never really seen an answer.

I would think I should be able to walk up the counter at any DVC and ask to see the day's CROs v. Points rooms. I'm sure I can't but I should be able to.

What's the deal on this? The reason I ask is that it seems every time we meet someone at a DVC resort, they are not members but are staying on cash. It just seems to me that we ought to be meeting a LOT more members than cash guests and that is NOT the case?

What keeps it all en-check? What gives? I swear to God I think CRO gets priority in booking and NUMBER of rooms over owners. I wish I could prove it. I'm sure if I could, we'd all be rich so it must not be true but where's the accountability?

None that I know of. Other than breakage inventory, DVC isn't directly involved in this scenario. DVD is separate and they independently use the points they own or take in to get cash through CRO. As such, DVC or their members are not entitled to that info. As for the rest, members have the legal right to inspect the books but the only way to do so is to spend time at the Celebration offices.

 

[Garthilk]

None that I know of. Other than breakage inventory, DVC isn't directly involved in this scenario. DVD is separate and they independently use the points they own or take in to get cash through CRO. As such, DVC or their members are not entitled to that info. As for the rest, members have the legal right to inspect the books but the only way to do so is to spend time at the Celebration offices.

I wonder how this applies to resorts that are "sold out". I know things aren't transparent because well then people would see just how much money Disney is making, but still...

 

[disneynutz]

I have tried to find out about the inner workings with the DVC and have never been successful. There are several areas that I would like more info on.

Wait Lists.
Breakage.
60 day CRO and give back.
Room assignments.
Dues and a better detailed break down of what we are paying for.
Maintenance and rehab schedules.
What criteria is used when Disney decides on a major rehab like the pool at SSR and the luggage area at OKW.

Bill

 

[Dean]

I wonder how this applies to resorts that are "sold out". I know things aren't transparent because well then people would see just how much money Disney is making, but still...

It applies the same other than the unsold AND undeclared inventory.

 

[wdrl]

The reason I ask is that it seems every time we meet someone at a DVC resort, they are not members but are staying on cash. It just seems to me that we ought to be meeting a LOT more members than cash guests and that is NOT the case?

You don't mention at which resorts you are meeting non-members who have rented for cash. But if your observations are based in part because of your experiences at BLT and AKV, then the likelihood of you meeting cash paying guests is quite high. Currently, only 64% of BLT and 59% of AKV have been bought by DVC members, and those percentages were less than 50% 6 or 9 months ago. That means that DVD owned about half of these resorts and was renting the rooms for cash. Add to that the DVC owners who rented their points for cash, or the owners who exchanged their points for DCL, ABD, RCI, etc. There are a lot of non-members who can be occupying the rooms at DVC villas.

In addition, don't forget that a member can book a room and bring non-member family and guests with them. Next year, my wife and I will have by sister's family of 4 staying with us in a two-bedroom villa at AKV. Only 2 of the 6 guests in that villa will be members. Thus, if you ran into you during our stay you might get the impression that two-thirds of the resort is occupied by non-owners.

 

[TisBit]

And BLT is a good example of undeclared inventory, but I also wonder if breakage inventory is reserved at that resort. Scenario, BCV has rented all of its breakage inventory and still has rooms left over. A cash paying guest calls for a reservation and wants BCV, can they pull the "points" for breakage from other resorts, such as OKW or SSR where there are more points available to reserve that room for the cash guest?

Speaking economically, I would hope they do this, renting out breakage and trade outs helps keep the dues down to members, so every room rented is a good thing. But, I could see where it would upset members who couldn't get their desired resort.

I tend to believe that this does happen, namely because I don't think I have ever seen DVC resorts not come up as having availability (with the exception of holidays, etc)....so one could presume they keep rooms available as long as there is one, regardless of where those breakage points come from.

 

[crisi]

Sure they can use points from a different resort - just like you can book a non-home resort.

What is unknown is if they have to wait for the seven month window to move points around, or if they have some advantage there. Or if they do some sort of mathematically analysis that means it all works on in the wash on a grand scale - since they have hundreds of thousands of points they are working with across all the resorts - that most of us could only dream of juggling.

But functionally, they own the points that they rent through CRO, they certainly aren't at a disadvantage in using them. And really, they can't be at a disadvantage for everything to work out - unrented rooms mean higher costs to trade out and higher dues.

 

[WilsonFlyer]

Now I find this even more fascinating. Even the guys I always think are in the know don't know. Hmmmm... That's kinda disturbing. I must admit, I assumed there was an answer and that I just didn't know what it was but others did.

Wouldn't the numbers be accountable to any member of the association upon demand? Now I really DON'T get it; especially if there's no accounting for when repairs and modifications are done and who pays for what.

As for the folks that made comments like this:

But functionally, they own the points that they rent through CRO, they certainly aren't at a disadvantage in using them. And really, they can't be at a disadvantage for everything to work out - unrented rooms mean higher costs to trade out and higher dues.

You're making a great assumption there based on what I'm hearing. For all I know, WE are paying for all the refurbs and upkeep and CRO pays for nothing. Do we even have proof that DVD pays annual dues on their points? If we do, we should certainly know how many points they own at each resort, assuming they pay the same dues we do (Why wouldn't they?).

Things that make you go, "Hmmmmmmmm..."

 

[disneynutz]

In my book, anytime someone is not forthcoming with information, there is a reason for it. I have requested in writing several times for additional information on various accounting items and each time I didn't get a response. At last years DVC meeting, I asked Jim Lewis about getting some information and he had a manager take my contact info. Never heard from anyone.

Bill

 

[crisi]

You're making a great assumption there based on what I'm hearing. For all I know, WE are paying for all the refurbs and upkeep and CRO pays for nothing. Do we even have proof that DVD pays annual dues on their points? If we do, we should certainly know how many points they own at each resort, assuming they pay the same dues we do (Why wouldn't they?).

They don't pay dues. There is a line item in our annual statements for breakage income, you can look for yourself. That income comes from somewhere. Also, they need to pay for trades somehow, DCL cruises are not given for free to DVC members from DCL.

 

[Dean]

Now I find this even more fascinating. Even the guys I always think are in the know don't know. Hmmmm... That's kinda disturbing. I must admit, I assumed there was an answer and that I just didn't know what it was but others did.

Wouldn't the numbers be accountable to any member of the association upon demand? Now I really DON'T get it; especially if there's no accounting for when repairs and modifications are done and who pays for what.

As for the folks that made comments like this:

You have no entitlement to DVD internal info, only things that DIRECTLY relate to DVC. The only way to get such sensitive info is to make an appt with upper management and go in person to Celebration. They may still roadblock items like occupancy rates and contractual info.

 

[WilsonFlyer]

So let me make sure I've got this straight...

1) There is no accountbility for annual dues as far as DVD's points and essentially they don't have to pay for dues on their points.

2) We don't know how many points they own or how they shift them from resort to resort for CRO and we don't know if they are bound by the same 7/11 month windows we are.

3) We don't know if DVD pays any maintenance fees from CRO income much less a fair percentage based on what is sold.

4) If members own 90% (made up number) of a sold-out resort, there is no accountability that members are actually getting 90% of the points (minus those traded out on any given day, of course) on any given day.

5) General concensus seems to be that CRO rooms are virtually always available at DVC resorts while many times, we cannot book rooms; especially during busy periods.

Nice.

What have I missed?

I gotta tell you what folks. I cannot believe timeshare laws let basically any of this stuff slide. I would have believed that time-share laws would have buried them in paperwork to be accountable for these types of things. When I originally posted this, I was just naive enough to believe that I just didn't know the answers. I didn't even fathom that there were no answers. I'm still trying to get my arms around that fact.

Essentially, I'm a CRO guest that has pre-paid at fair market rate and am at the mercy of Disney to decide whether they want to give me a room or not. It's starting to look like I'm low man on the totem pole at that. Please tell me what I'm missing.

Don't get me wrong, folks. I'm still in. I'm just a little disillusioned right now. I don't like the thought of buying anything with no system of accountability for its usage which is essentially what we seem to have here.

I'm a businessman. I don't get it and to be honest with you, some of you guys that seem to be dismissing it as unimportant surprise me given how sharp you guys are as business people. I guess you've just pigeon-holed it into what I call that "it is what it is" category. I'm just having a hard time placing it there than most, I guess.

 

[JimMIA]

OP...what inquiries have you made to DVC, DVD, or the Florida Department of Business & Professional Regulation Timeshare Division to obtain the info you want?

Has anyone refused to provide you with any information?

 

[WilsonFlyer]

OP...what inquiries have you made to DVC, DVD, or the Florida Department of Business & Professional Regulation Timeshare Division to obtain the info you want?

None.

Has anyone refused to provide you with any information?

Not possible since I haven't asked anybody for anything.

Kind of a smart-alec response given I never claimed trying to obtain such information. I guess since I don't know or apparently like the answers myself, I'll criticize the OP and make him the scapegoat here and try to make him look stupid instead of worrying about the original question.

Of course I haven't asked anybody. I was just asking if such information was available. Most of the posts here say it isn't available anyway so why would you even ask if I had tried.

No need to get snippedy at me. I was just asking a question.

 

[crisi]

1) There is no accountbility for annual dues as far as DVD's points and essentially they don't have to pay for dues on their points.

Not true. DVD is regularly audited, is subject to Florida timeshare laws (which according to Dean who is pretty knowledgeable are fairly strict) and, while they might not pay dues (at least, probably not in the manner we do)- they do subsidize dues during the selling stages of a resort.

2) We don't know how many points they own or how they shift them from resort to resort for CRO and we don't know if they are bound by the same 7/11 month windows we are.

They own - after a resort "sells out" - between 93-98% of a resort for maintenance purposes - its in your POS. However, currently due to foreclosure, I'd guess they own a lot more. Since the point ownership is a matter of public information on the county web site, you can do the data analysis yourself if you want.

3) We don't know if DVD pays any maintenance fees from CRO income much less a fair percentage based on what is sold.

I don't think they pay maintenance fees - but they might. They DO pay rental income back into DVC which offsets our dues on breakage points. Other rooms that are rented through CRO come from trades, on which a member has already paid maintenance. This is also covered in both your POS and your annual statement.

4) If members own 90% (made up number) of a sold-out resort, there is no accountability that members are actually getting 90% of the points (minus those traded out on any given day, of course) on any given day.

There is, BUT, there are a couple of cavets. Points, not rooms. So if I use my points for an Adventures by Disney trip, those points are used, but another member won't be using them. A CRO reservation will (or can - if they sell the room). The money gotten from that CRO reservation is used to pay for my trip (I don't think its one for one accounting, I think its an annually negotiated package). Also, if I don't use my points for a room and let them expire, you don't get to use those points, but DVD can reclaim them as breakage. DVD sells enough points that if you are using points, all the point nights book up completely. But CRO doesn't have a 98% occupancy rate.

5) General concensus seems to be that CRO rooms are virtually always available at DVC resorts while many times, we cannot book rooms; especially during busy periods.

Yes. The other option is that you cannot trade out. I don't trade out myself, so I don't care, but a lot of members like to use their points to cruise. And of course, DVD gets to use the points that they own. Part of the reason that there are almost always CRO rooms available at DVC resorts is that Disney cannot sell as many "point nights" as are traded for cruising or whatever. That's why trade options are relatively more expensive - because some of the rooms on the DVC end will sit empty.

I gotta tell you what folks. I cannot believe timeshare laws let basically any of this stuff slide. I would have believed that time-share laws would have buried them in paperwork to be accountable for these types of things. When I originally posted this, I was just naive enough to believe that I just didn't know the answers. I didn't even fathom that there were no answers. I'm still trying to get my arms around that fact.

They don't. You need to read the contract and understand what you are talking about. If you DIDN'T understand this BEFORE you bought - well caveat emptor. Maybe next time you buy five figures worth of a timeshare, you should read the documents and understand the program.

Essentially, I'm a CRO guest that has pre-paid at fair market rate and am at the mercy of Disney to decide whether they want to give me a room or not. It's starting to look like I'm low man on the totem pole at that. Please tell me what I'm missing.

Don't get me wrong, folks. I'm still in. I'm just a little disillusioned right now. I don't like the thought of buying anything with no system of accountability for its usage which is essentially what we seem to have here.

I'm a businessman. I don't get it and to be honest with you, some of you guys that seem to be dismissing it as unimportant surprise me given how sharp you guys are as business people. I guess you've just pigeon-holed it into what I call that "it is what it is" category. I'm just having a hard time placing it there than most, I guess.

 

[JimMIA]

Kind of a smart-alec response given I never claimed trying to obtain such information. I guess since I don't know or apparently like the answers myself, I'll criticize the OP and make him the scapegoat here and try to make him look stupid instead of worrying about the original question.

You're a little over-touchy. I wasn't criticizing, just wondering what, if anything, you had done to try to get the information from the folks who probably have the information.

Of course I haven't asked anybody. I was just asking if such information was available. Most of the posts here say it isn't available anyway so why would you even ask if I had tried.

I guess we just have different approaches. If I wanted that info, I'd ask the people who have it -- not anonymous posters on an Internet board who may or may not know if the info even exists and/or is available to me.

I don't mind rants; I've done a few myself. But you seem to be ranting first and gathering facts later...or not at all.

No need to get snippedy at me. I was just asking a question.

No need to get snippedy at me. I was just asking two questions.

 

[JimMIA]

They own - after a resort "sells out" - between 93-98% of a resort for maintenance purposes - its in your POS. However, currently due to foreclosure, I'd guess they own a lot more. Since the point ownership is a matter of public information on the county web site, you can do the data analysis yourself if you want.

Crisi...I think you did a little typo here because you seem to have the percentages backwards. I believe DVC retains ownership of a small percentage of points for maintenance purposes...not 93-98%!

And I think you are right, I think they own a LOT more at some of the resorts -- especially newer resorts like SSR and AKV where their sales were heavily financed and are now coming back to haunt them.

 

[wdrl]

So let me make sure I've got this straight...

1) There is no accountbility for annual dues as far as DVD's points and essentially they don't have to pay for dues on their points.

DVDMC sends each member a yearly statement showing a summary of the estimated operating budget for the member's home resort(s). Its also the statement that announces the annual meeting. If you look at the dollar amounts in the budget and the total number of points declared at a resort, you'll probably find an answer to your question.

2) We don't know how many points they own or how they shift them from resort to resort for CRO and we don't know if they are bound by the same 7/11 month windows we are.

It is possible to determine how many points are owned by DVD. It can be a tedious process, but it can be done. Points controlled by DVD are bound by the same rules and regulations as those owned by the public. During the Home Resort period, all points can only be used at their home resort. At the 7-month mark, DVD may use points at other resorts. However, the fact that they may use the points does not mean that they do use the points at other resorts for CRO bookings.

3) We don't know if DVD pays any maintenance fees from CRO income much less a fair percentage based on what is sold.

Technically, DVD would not pay maintenance fees on CRO income. However, MFs are paid on points that form the basis of cash bookings made by CRO.

4) If members own 90% (made up number) of a sold-out resort, there is no accountability that members are actually getting 90% of the points (minus those traded out on any given day, of course) on any given day.

The fact that DVD has not shown me that 90% of a resort was used by members doesn't mean that there is no accountability. It just means that I have never seen a report that showed points used at a resort on a yearly basis.

5) General concensus seems to be that CRO rooms are virtually always available at DVC resorts while many times, we cannot book rooms; especially during busy periods.

Currently, 66.82% of AKV has been declared for the DVC membership. For any given Use Day, members cannot book more the 66.82% of AKV using points. There could be another 50 villas empty and available for CRO bookings, but once the membership books 66.82% of AKV, the membership cannot book any additional rooms at AKV.

By the way, about 6 weeks ago booked a two-bedroom savanna view room at AKV. I went into the CRO website that same day and there were no savanna view two-bedroom villas available. So, perhaps on that day there was more DVC availability than CRO availability for that particular accommodation.

Nice.

What have I missed?

I gotta tell you what folks. I cannot believe timeshare laws let basically any of this stuff slide. I would have believed that time-share laws would have buried them in paperwork to be accountable for these types of things. When I originally posted this, I was just naive enough to believe that I just didn't know the answers. I didn't even fathom that there were no answers. I'm still trying to get my arms around that fact.

Essentially, I'm a CRO guest that has pre-paid at fair market rate and am at the mercy of Disney to decide whether they want to give me a room or not. It's starting to look like I'm low man on the totem pole at that. Please tell me what I'm missing.

Don't get me wrong, folks. I'm still in. I'm just a little disillusioned right now. I don't like the thought of buying anything with no system of accountability for its usage which is essentially what we seem to have here.

I'm a businessman. I don't get it and to be honest with you, some of you guys that seem to be dismissing it as unimportant surprise me given how sharp you guys are as business people. I guess you've just pigeon-holed it into what I call that "it is what it is" category. I'm just having a hard time placing it there than most, I guess.

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but it seems as if you are asking for more transparency in the booking and usage process by DVD and the public owners. Transparency is a good thing and I welcome steps in that direction. But even without full transparency, I don't see significant problems with the current operations. I've spent a good deal of time reading the Master Declarations, I've spent a LOT of time searching DVD's filings with the Orange County Comptroller, and I've read material, such as the annual budgets and related financial statements, whenever they are available. I also read the postings here on the Disboards and on DVCNews.com. I might not understand everything DVD does, nor am I able to explain everything it does. But based on my overall knowledge, I haven't encountered significant issues that would cause me to think DVD or DVDMC is not fulfilling its obligations as specified in the Master Declaration.

 

[crisi]

Crisi...I think you did a little typo here because you seem to have the percentages backwards. I believe DVC retains ownership of a small percentage of points for maintenance purposes...not 93-98%!

And I think you are right, I think they own a LOT more at some of the resorts -- especially newer resorts like SSR and AKV where their sales were heavily financed and are now coming back to haunt them.

Yep, backwards. We own 93-98%. They own between 7 and 2% for maintenance. I think its closer to 2, but I can't remember. Its in that range though.