Conspiracy theory's

[disneylovin24]

No, just the bomb part. It destroys the credibility of the larger theory.

Given how reluctant Americans were to enter the fight against Hitler, I can see how we might have let this attack happen. We did, after all, move our most valuable naval resources away from Pearl Harbor before the attack.

That said, If FDR had known how much they were going to throw at us, I am not so sure that he would have allowed it. The new torpedoes that they used were only developed about one month prior to the attack (shallow water, airplace dropped). Without them, we would have taken little damage.

So, even if the theory is correct, it is also incorrect. IMO, no way it is allowed to happen if the results had been known ahead of time. We were overconfident about Pearl Harbor's strenths and unaware of the Japanese improvements in technology.

I agree 100% if I understand what your saying. I think your trying to get at the government thought that we would easily be able to take down the Japanese and not many would die. So, few would have died while the Japanese still attacked us and we still had a good reason to go to war. I think though if the government had known that many would have died and we would have ended up looking that weak that would have prepared us more for it.

Tell me if that's right.

 

[Aisling]

Wouldn't you say the conspiracy part was that we were told it was a "surprise attack"?

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

I agree 100% if I understand what your saying. I think your trying to get at the government thought that we would easily be able to take down the Japanese and not many would die. So, few would have died while the Japanese still attacked us and we still had a good reason to go to war. I think though if the government had known that many would have died and we would have ended up looking that weak that would have prepared us more for it.

Tell me if that's right.

That is my thought, exactly. Again, just my opinion. I am connecting a lot of dots to get there.

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

Wouldn't you say the conspiracy part was that we were told it was a "surprise attack"?

Yep - in fact, the key to American anger at the time was the fact that they attacked without declaring war on us first, making it into an act of terrorism instead of an act of war. Of course, they meant to declare war on us minutes before the attack, but that is semantics.

Remember, even if we did know, they did not know that we knew. What they did was no less evil.

 

[Charade]

Yep - in fact, the key to American anger at the time was the fact that they attacked without declaring war on us first, making it into an act of terrorism instead of an act of war. Of course, they meant to declare war on us minutes before the attack, but that is semantics.

Remember, even if we did know, they did not know that we knew. What they did was no less evil.

Japan's attack on Pearl was an act of war. A declaration was a formality.

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

Japan's attack on Pearl was an act of war. A declaration was a formality.

I disagree - an act of war takes place in war. They had not declared war. There is a huge historical distinction. Those who attack others first, unprovoked and without declaring war, are demonized. Even among acts of war, these attacks are viewed in the worst light. The attack on Pearl Harbor, for instance, is considered to be a far worse act than our use of the bomb - twice. That would not have been the case had we been at war.

 

[hambirg]

Talking like that is just proof of all the wacky conspiracy theorists out there. To think that our own government would murder thousands of US citizens is borderline mentally ill. Ppl that think like that wear aluminum foil hats to keep the government waves out of their head. Thinking 9/11 was the work of the US government is about as far out there as you can go without being in lock up at the looney bin. Terrorist have never been known, at any time in History, to take credit for things they didn't do. Osama Bin laden had tried to take down the twin towers one other time and didn't succeed. He came back to finish the job. And just having taken high school physics doesn't qualify anybody to discuss what kind of energy it would take to bring down those towers. Since NOBODY has ever in the History of man flown jet planes into skyscrapers, we don't know how the steel supports will react until it happens. It happened. Now we know. And to imply that someone is stupid or not open minded because they don't agree with your paranoid way of thinking doesn't show you have an open mind. Quite the contrary.
Having an open mind would be being open to the debate of how humans may or may not have contributed to the current global warming crisis.

Bolding mine.

Your question: to think that government would murder thousands of citizens?

Answer: History



I don't know what I think about 9/11, but to imply that people that think that a government could murder thousands of it's own citizen's are mentally ill is way off base. Perhaps they are just better students of history, because it has happened many times throughout the history of the world. Why can't it happen again? In fact, I think when it comes to genocide, it's not a question of if, but a question of when. I am as sure of that, as I am the sky is blue.

 

[maelstrom]

I don't know what I think about 9/11, but to imply that people that think that a government could murder thousands of it's own citizen's are mentally ill is way off base. Perhaps they are just better students of history, because it has happened many times throughout the history of the world. Why can't it happen again? In fact, I think when it comes to genocide, it's not a question of if, but a question of when. I am as sure of that, as I am the sky is blue.

 

[hambirg]

Those are all incidents of WAR. Where capable, intelligent, willing adults signed up in the military to go and fight for their country. Except in the case of a draft, those people all had a choice to go to war or not go to war. Those ppl weren't lined up and shot, they weren't put in a building and blown up. The government didn't kill all those men. Our countries enemies killed those men.

Nazi Germany and the Holocaust
Stalin's Great Purge
Khmer Rouge in Cambodia
The Iraqi Kurds. . . .

 

[TLSnell1981]

Nazi Germany and the Holocaust
Stalin's Great Purge
Khmer Rouge in Cambodia
The Iraqi Kurds. . . .

You are comparing, 911...to the above events?

 

[si-am]

You are comparing, 911...to the above events?

I think it was more of an example of what a government can allow to happen (or cause to happen) in its own country.

I'm not sure what I think about 9/11. Some of the conspiracy theories are really out there, but there are also a lot of strange circumstances surrounding event that are a little suspicious.

 

[hambirg]

You are comparing, 911...to the above events?

No, but like the PP said, I think it is foolish to assume that a government can't commit atrocious crimes against it's citizens. It has happened. . .to pretend that it is an impossibility is folly. . .and in my own personal opinion, arrogant. It's personal for me. My ex is German. His parents and grandparents lived through The Third Reich. I have heard their personal stories. To think that somehow we are better than them and it can't possibly happen to us, is sheer madness and arrogance to me. Sorry, but that's the truth. And the argument that these kinds of atrocities can't happen on a large scale because people will talk. . .is simply not true. Trouble makers are exterminated and according to my ex's Oma. . .you kept your mouth shut. Fear is a powerful motivator and you just didn't know who the rats were or who you could trust. You did what you had to to survive.

So, like I said before, I don't know about 9/11. . .but I always think questioning by citizen's is a good thing. . .

Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny.
Thomas Jefferson

 

[disneylovin24]

No, but like the PP said, I think it is foolish to assume that a government can't commit atrocious crimes against it's citizens. It has happened. . .to pretend that it is an impossibility is folly. . .and in my own personal opinion, arrogant. It's personal for me. My ex is German. His parents and grandparents lived through The Third Reich. I have heard their personal stories. To think that somehow we are better than them and it can't possibly happen to us, is sheer madness and arrogance to me. Sorry, but that's the truth. And the argument that these kinds of atrocities can't happen on a large scale because people will talk. . .is simply not true. Trouble makers are exterminated and according to my ex's Oma. . .you kept your mouth shut. Fear is a powerful motivator and you just didn't know who the rats were or who you could trust. You did what you had to to survive.

So, like I said before, I don't know about 9/11. . .but I always think questioning by citizen's is a good thing. . .

Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny.
Thomas Jefferson

I think it was more of an example of what a government can allow to happen (or cause to happen) in its own country.

I'm not sure what I think about 9/11. Some of the conspiracy theories are really out there, but there are also a lot of strange circumstances surrounding event that are a little suspicious.

Nazi Germany and the Holocaust
Stalin's Great Purge
Khmer Rouge in Cambodia
The Iraqi Kurds. . . .

But look at thos countires! Those are all countries that the US has fought wars against for various reasons. Those are all countires that were under terrible regimes when those acts happened. The United States is in a different league then all of those countries above. I don't think you can compare the US to Nazi germany or Soviet Russia AT ALL.

I think everyone can agree that governments have and can kill thousands, BUT governments like Hitler's and Stalin's. We are not talking about Democracies when we are talking about countries that have purposely killed thousands.

So you found the one person who supported you and quoted that. Never mind all of the posts in the last few pages that were directed at you...

 

[disneylovin24]

No, but like the PP said, I think it is foolish to assume that a government can't commit atrocious crimes against it's citizens. It has happened. . .to pretend that it is an impossibility is folly. . .and in my own personal opinion, arrogant. It's personal for me. My ex is German. His parents and grandparents lived through The Third Reich. I have heard their personal stories. To think that somehow we are better than them and it can't possibly happen to us, is sheer madness and arrogance to me. Sorry, but that's the truth. And the argument that these kinds of atrocities can't happen on a large scale because people will talk. . .is simply not true. Trouble makers are exterminated and according to my ex's Oma. . .you kept your mouth shut. Fear is a powerful motivator and you just didn't know who the rats were or who you could trust. You did what you had to to survive.

So, like I said before, I don't know about 9/11. . .but I always think questioning by citizen's is a good thing. . .

Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny.
Thomas Jefferson

I don't think we should trust every little thing our government does but I don't believe we should come up with a reason why our government did everything either. There's a difference between questioning our government and blaming every big event that happens on our government.

 

[MickeySP]

hambirg -

The only problem I have with your logic is that you left out the words "our own" from the PPs sentence.

Govt's are not interchangeable and by rewording a sentence you have completely changed the meaning. So what has "our own" govt done - not Nazi's, Khmer Rouge etc.... No apples & oranges please.

And please - the Revolutionary War is what made it possible for you to have this discussion so comparing it to atrocities that were perpatrated by the Nazi & Khmer Rouge is utterly ridiculous.

 

[Charade]

I think it was more of an example of what a government can allow to happen (or cause to happen) in its own country.

I'm not sure what I think about 9/11. Some of the conspiracy theories are really out there, but there are also a lot of strange circumstances surrounding event that are a little suspicious.

Motive aside, the question is which is more likely and feasible, terrorists flying planes into buildings and they crash down on their own or a fairly extensive conspiracy with lots of players to bring the buildings down?

 

[Rora]

I believe there had to be more to the Kennedy assassination and I'm skeptical of Area 51...

 

[crashbb]

No, but like the PP said, I think it is foolish to assume that a government can't commit atrocious crimes against it's citizens. It has happened. . .to pretend that it is an impossibility is folly. . .and in my own personal opinion, arrogant. It's personal for me. My ex is German. His parents and grandparents lived through The Third Reich. I have heard their personal stories. To think that somehow we are better than them and it can't possibly happen to us, is sheer madness and arrogance to me. Sorry, but that's the truth. And the argument that these kinds of atrocities can't happen on a large scale because people will talk. . .is simply not true. Trouble makers are exterminated and according to my ex's Oma. . .you kept your mouth shut. Fear is a powerful motivator and you just didn't know who the rats were or who you could trust. You did what you had to to survive.

So, like I said before, I don't know about 9/11. . .but I always think questioning by citizen's is a good thing. . .

Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny.
Thomas Jefferson

While I fully agree that is is madness to state that a government cannot commit atrocities against its own people, none of those are examples that mimic the proposed US government actions to cause 9/11; none of them were done in secret or blamed on another cause. Even your example of people keeping their mouths shut - everyone knew it was happening, people just didn't/don't voice their fears in public. A more recent example would be the Desaparecidos in Argentina - sure, the victims of the families were far to scared to make a scene (well, most of them), but that is far from saying that most of the country didn't know about it.

 

[miralys]

I don't know if I believe in any "theories" per se.

What I do believe is that most events, especially those on a world-wide scale, have far more players, causes and decisions involved than I could possibly fathom. Not all of these factors are known to everyone, but at least some of them are known to everyone. I don't think it's possible for any group to execute a massive cover-up, especially in this day and age, without something leaking. Whether people do something with that information is an entirely different can of worms.

 

[golfgal]

I agree with you! So many independant witnesses saw a missile, then the story changed so quickly -- It's always seemed a little hinky.

I remember watching the coverage of this event-there were about 7 of us in the room and we all said "LOOK AT THAT MISSILE" before the plane exploded. It was said that something fell "off" the plane and that accounted for the streak of light coming from the ground to the airplane--it isn't even a PLAUSIBLE theory for this one.

I have a hard time believing in 9/11 and what happened.
Being a construction worker(carpenter) I understand how buildings are made, and how the structure comes together.
quick example, if your house is 2 floors the first floor is made to hold up the second. Well it is the same in tall buildings like the wtc towers. The first floor is built to hold up the hundred or more floor above it. So the columns on the first floor are going to be bigger than columns on the 50th floor, and they are bigger than ones on the 100th floor. For this reason a few floors failing does not equal a building collapse.
The 3 wtc towers were the first and only steel framed high rise buildings to ever collapse due to fires alone.

Just think about how much stress is put on a building during a mega thrust earthquake like Japan just experienced and what forces are put on those tall buildings.
To me there is no explanation for why the building core containing the elevators collapsed. It is basically a building within a building, with heavy steel columns placed very close together(I would guess a foot or two apart). Even if the buildings floors collapse like pancakes like they say, this would leave the massive building core....unless somehow the columns were physically cut in some way or another....

my .02 cents

There was a lot of talk afterwards about the instability of the ground because the towers were pretty much built on quicksand contributing to the collapse as well. Honestly, this thread is the first time I have heard, in any seriousness anyway, that there was any doubt about what happened with these buildings .

I think we're just getting smarter and not believing everything we're told by the govt.






I believe anything and everything Michio Kaku says. He's the farthest from a nut than I've ever seen.


And I sure do believe our govt would kill thousands of people if they felt it would benefit some agenda of theirs.

Look how it's come out that Pres. Roosevelt KNEW the planes were coming from Japan to Pearl Harbor, yet he didn't do anything to stop it. Why, you ask? because he needed a good reason to drop the bomb on them and end the war in one swoop. And it worked.

Everything comes out over time.

That said, I still love my country but it's the people I love. I love our govt for keeping us free, but their ways are very very suspect many times.

I think you are mixing up your conspiracy theories--the conspiracy with the dropping of the bombs was not related to Pearl Harbor but the ending of the war and many people feeling that the war would have ended shortly even without dropping the bombs. The conspiracy around Pearl Harbor is that we knew the attack was coming and didn't do anything to prevent it--basically as a way for the US to get into the war to help relieve the depression.


I am 100% confident that our government doesn't tell us everything and may very well create some consipiricies--however I also think that it is done for the greater good or to protect innocent lives-or the lives of those involved (CIA, military, etc.). That doesn't mean that there aren't corrupt people in the government but I don't think that the majority of those in government are there to stick it to the people.