College selection vs cost

[tfiga]

$60K is really a lot and even with an engineer salary can really hamper his lifestyle as an adult for years. For $60K you will have to co-sign and ultimately responsible if he fails to pay. I am not familiar with the schools or engineering, but I read a lot on College Confidential forums that as long as a school is ABET accredited, there is not a big difference to employers where the degree came from.

I recommend the College Confidential forums. There is a Parents Forum and an Engineering Major forum, etc. with lots of knowledgeable people.

Thank you

 

[VictoriaT]

Another vote for Michigan Tech here! My DS also just finished his freshman year there (mechanical engineering), and he loves it. Their fall and spring career fairs are excellent for acquiring internships and networking opprtunities. We know freshmen who obtained internships for this summer, which I don't think happens everywhere. They do offer some merit scholarships to lower the cost. That said, you have to know what you are getting into there. It is a small school, and remote (at least for those of us in SE Michigan), although it is a very tight knit community, and people are quite friendly and helpful. It is a tough school, classes are not easy. I recommend going up to visit, if you can.

 

[Southernmiss]

My dd is finishing up her junior year in HS and wants to pursue aerospace engineering also.

Do you have any recommendations? She has told me she wants to get out of FL to go to school and thinks CA is too far west. She won't commit to much else. Would love to hear another perspective!

Her top choice (University of Toronto) is extremely difficult to get into for engineering, so I've discounted it a bit since the odds are stacked against her here. We have toured here and she has done a summer engineering program here as well (last summer for 4 weeks).

Have her look at Mississippi State University.

My daughter in law's brother graduated from there last year with an aerospace engineering degree.

It was a really good experience for him. He is now in graduate school in Indiana, I believe.

 

[pfp258]

Nope- the school doesn’t matter! Do you know what college your physician graduated from? Were they at the top or bottom of their class? My point is, the college you attended is barely noted. Both of my daughters attended a state school and studied education. They both had jobs offered to them quickly after they graduated. (One is a 3rd grade teacher and the other 3-5 special education teacher). Neither daughter had debt as my husband and I paid for college. They had to buy books and misc. expenses. We would not allow our children to go out of state or to a pricier university. They had several schools to choose from and they chose wisely!

 

[tcufrog]

The name of your alma mater sometimes does matter. My DH is a mechanical engineer who co-owns two companies. His business partner attended the same alma mater, although after my DH did. Both got their start in the industry when they were hired right out of college by someone who was a founder of the school's engineering department and a former member of the university's Board of Trustees. He hired both of them based on their senior design project work without even an interview. My DH and his partner now give special consideration to graduates of their engineering program when hiring, not out of school pride but because they like the sort of engineers the school graduates. The program emphasizes practical, hands-on work and all engineers need to have a strong grounding in mechanical and electrical engineering even though they have to specialize. Even though my DH and his partner are mechanical engineers, they've found their knowledge of electrical engineering from undergrad to be very useful.

I chose my alma mater because having it on my resume would be very useful for my original, chosen career. I originally wanted to become a minister and eventually a college professor. I attended a university affiliated with church denomination. That choice provided me opportunities for church grants and church internships only available to religion majors from my denomination who attended my alma mater. It also would have given me an advantage when applying to church-related seminaries. When I graduated, it would have also been considered a positive by hiring churches.

 

[jag90]

Hi there, chemical engineer here! I graduated four years ago and I actively recruit interns and recent graduates for my company.

I definitely agree that you want to make sure the school has a strong career center with career fairs and company connections. That’s where you land those internships or co-ops. See if you can talk to upperclassmen (or better yet- recent grads) there to get their gauge on success in getting those internships and what the recruitment process is like.

As far as debt goes, I’m a huge supporter of whatever option results in the least amount of debt, especially if your student is a hard worker. Unless the school is absolute garbage, they will come out with the necessary skills. I was able to graduate without debt due to some great scholarships and working through school and the freedom that comes with that is indescribable. The fact that I can put my income toward other things is something many of my friends don’t understand.

Nicely done! Son will graduate in May with his Chem Eng degree from Rose Hulman. While he'll have some debt to overcome, he was very happy with his decision.

 

[dolewhipdreams]

Nicely done! Son will graduate in May with his Chem Eng degree from Rose Hulman. While he'll have some debt to overcome, he was very happy with his decision.

Excellent school! My company recruits pretty heavily from Rose

 

[Patches Lee]

Possibly look for employers that have tuition programs as well. Cummins does up to $7000 tuition reimbursement per year for schooling that can apply to them. It requires a 2 year contract to work for the company but it's helped me alot with cost. There's other companies that have similar programs.

 

[arminnie]

Sometimes the school matters - but usually just for post graduate degrees. It can even be detrimental if the undergraduate school you go to is the same one where you want to get a graduate degree - especially if it is ultra competitive, and they do not want all their grad students to come from their undergrad college.

I got my MBA from Stanford - which is the most competitive MBA program in the country. Yes - even more than Harvard (where I also got accepted). Stanford accepted about 300 students, and Harvard accepted 900. I know people who were stellar undergraduates from Stanford who did not get into the business school. Stanford wanted a diverse student body not just Stanford grads.

Yes - I went into debt to go back to school there. But it was so worth it. My starting salary was about 50% more than my peers who went to great programs at good schools. We even got better offers than the Harvard MBAs. And in the 8 years I spent there the salary discrepancy did lot lessen.

My rule of thumb for student loans is to not borrow more than 50% of a first year salary. I had nothing when I graduated from undergrad so had to borrow money for a car, had to pay rent and had to pay student loans. But it was all quite doable. I even bought my first home by the time I was 25.

But smart people who work hard are going to be okay no matter where they go to school or even if they go to college. I know many people with successful lives who never even went to college. And making a lot of money is not necessarily the measure of a life well lived.

 

[kydisneyfans]

I'm in the knock out core classes as cheaply as possible then move into the more expensive school camp. I changed my major 4 times before settling in on one my junior year. Our son moved from engineering to electronics to ultimately CAD, where there are literally recruiters in the classrooms observing work being done and offering jobs. He also moved out of the planned degree at UK(said it was stupid due to the cost being 4x that of the tech school on the same campus). He took one of the jobs last month and is making VERY good money at 20 years old. Benefits start 8-1 and are amazing-over 30 holidays/sick/PTO days year 1. Our son was told the recruiters like the tech schools better as the folks are ready to get their hands dirty immediately where the 4 year schools have a different type of student that isn't as good of a fit for their training programs. He also noted that department of defense contractors were also observing work in the classes with available jobs. If he wants to get a 4 year degree in a more specialized area, they will provide tuition reimbursement up to 10K a year if it is in his job field.

What it boils down to is fit. The most expensive is not necessarily the best. The most well known isn't the best. A little tech school in the middle of KY has recruiters for well paying jobs in the classrooms right now. Go with where you child is most comfortable, and definitely find out what recruiting/internships are out there. With school costs skyrocketing, getting creative to get that degree is essential anymore.

 

[arminnie]

The problem with "knocking out core classes" at a community college is that the core classes may not be requirements at a more rigorous college - so they may not count. My friends that went to the local college had mandatory introductory math classes that I literally had taken in the 10th grade of high school. They were not even offered where I went.

Even at the college (Newcomb College of Tulane University) that I went to there were distinctions. I got 3 hours of credit for English based on the SAT writing sample (even though English was my very weakest subject). I was not have been allowed to take that first course, and I had to be in honors English.

But my niece who had horrible SAT scores spent two years in California community college and then was accepted at USC because she did so well. She ended up graduating from USC cum laude because she worked her tail off. So sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.

 

[RamblingMad]

What if your kid completely fails at the major you're thinking about? You have to keep this in mind. If your kid ends up struggling, he's going to need tutoring, and you're going to want him in a school that provides those services. I received terrible prep at high school, so going to a private university with tutoring services really got me through the tough courses. I wouldn't have finished a public university with 100+ student classes.

You really want to have realistic expectations for what your kid can accomplish. Grade inflation makes it more difficult to assess what your kid can really do.

 

[MrsPete]

Internships and co-ops are two different things. With a co-op, you take a semester off from school, to work at a company for 8 months. Typically, two co-op terms are done--you graduate in 5 years versus 4, but co-ops are paid.

Yes, for engineering -- maybe not for all majors -- a successful internship matters more than the school name. Engineers tend to care more about experience than school name.

Of course, exceptions are possible; for example, my husband's old boss was always interested in recruiting /interviewing people who graduated from his own alma mater. Remember, human behavior is involved here.

In addition to all the advise above about internships, recruitment center contacts, etc, my suggestion would be to apply to ALL the schools. You never know what financial aid offers will be made and each school will have other merit scholarships that may offset what you're expecting to pay for room/board.

I've been teaching high school seniors for 26 years, and -- in my lengthy experience - this is an unusual situation. In fact, it's been a couple years since I've seen it happen for anyone at our school. Practically always, the more expensive school ends up being, well, the more expensive school.

By all means, play the game! Try it out! If you prefer a more expensive school, apply and see if you're the exception to the rule -- but, at the same time, apply to at least one affordable school in your own state that you can afford if those anticipated scholarships don't come through. And be sure your student understands that you're keeping all options open until the numbers shake out.

A story: I taught a girl several years ago who -- well, she thought a lot of herself. She was a very good student -- top 10% but certainly not top 10. When May 1st (date students typically need to make a decision) rolled around, she had TWO out-of-state acceptances to expensive private schools ... but, much to her surprise, NO scholarship money. Her father (ironically, an engineer) lost his job right around that same time, and suddenly her parents had to choose between bad choices. Tell her she couldn't go to the schools with which she was in love ... or withdraw money from their retirement to send her to "the school"? If she'd applied to an in-state school, their problem wouldn't have been so severe.

They do post information but it includes all engineering majors so I am not sure if the students not working in their field are all the chemical engineering students.

Keep in mind that students don't always stay in their majors. My husband's an engineer. He started in one field of engineering and ended up graduating in a different branch. A starting major is something of a guess made by a high school student with little real knowledge of the field.

My niece’s husband went to a community college. He had to set up his own internship. He ended up with a guy with his own business. A one man operation. That did not help him much at all because there was no opportunity for hire at that business after graduation. It took him forever to find a job.

That's a cautionary tale!

When I was ready to student teach, one of the professors sat down one on one with me and talked about the kinds of experiences I was interested in.

I loved what my nurse daughter's university did: they sent the students all over the place. By the time she finished, my daughter had experience in the emergency room, in a cancer ward, a burn unit, maternity and mother/baby, a psychological hospital, a nursing home, a school, and a prison -- oh, I can't remember anything else. The point: they provided her with multiple experiences, and the ones she enjoyed most weren't the ones she'd expected to like. For example, most of her classmates enjoyed maternity -- she hated it. And I remember one of my old college roommates coming home from her clinical one day saying, "Today I learned that I am a surgical nurse." Experience is good.

Well, that student loan is what got you the education that got you the job that will carry you for 40+ years. Sort of a "Goose that laid the golden egg" situation. Without the goose, you've got nothing. But as a very cheap person, I think I would put student debt higher on the list than a car loan. All perspective.

I agree in theory, but engineers often don't have 40+ year careers. Remember I'm married to an engineer. I know LOTS of engineers.

Engineers have analyze-everything personalities, excel at math, make high salaries, and (universally after the first couple years) hate their jobs -- this all adds up to lots of them leaning towards early retirement. And/or they are laid off shortly after 50. It happens: at that point their salaries are high enough that the boss (who is also an analyze-everything personality) figures out that he could hire TWO new grads if he lays off the old guy. Young people tend to disbelieve this, thinking their contribution to the company is personal and super-valuable, but it happens.

The thing he told me that I remember 22 years later is that even if I went to a school that I could commute to I needed to move out and live on campus. He felt it was important to move out and have the experience.

I agree that the whole dorm thing /protected moving out on your own is great -- if paying for college isn't an issue. On the other hand, if "the experience" is going to saddle you with debt for years, I'd question whether it's worthwhile.

The problem with "knocking out core classes" at a community college is that the core classes may not be requirements at a more rigorous college - so they may not count.

My youngest wasn't ready to leave home /started at community college. 100% of her classes transferred -- and not just as elective credits.

No, it wasn't luck -- it was good planning. When she started at the community college, she had in mind two universities as potential transfers, and every semester as she registered, she compared her community college requirements against those two schools' requirements -- and she chose classes accordingly. Each of the universities offered an interactive online databank that allows potential students to enter their community college classes and verify if /exactly how those classes'll transfer in. Yes, in the past people might have had to kinda "guess" about what classes might be useful after community college graduation, but today that information is literally at your fingertips.

What if your kid completely fails at the major you're thinking about? You have to keep this in mind ... You really want to have realistic expectations for what your kid can accomplish. Grade inflation makes it more difficult to assess what your kid can really do.

Obviously none of us know your kid, but -- yeah -- this is a real concern. Sure, sure, he's a high school star -- so is everyone else who starts in the engineering program. Still, the reality is that MOST of the kids who start in engineering don't finish in that program. Sadly, my husband says that when he started his engineering degree in the 80s, everyone looked like him -- American-born white guys. By the time he retired, just two years ago, he says American-born engineers were the minority. He says all the young guys are from Japan or India. Doesn't speak well for the rigor of our schools, especially our math programs.

IF your son were to leave engineering, would the universities in question offer other majors that would suit him? It's almost always more expedient to remain at the same university.

 

[tvguy]

I agree in theory, but engineers often don't have 40+ year careers. Remember I'm married to an engineer. I know LOTS of engineers.

Engineers have analyze-everything personalities, excel at math, make high salaries, and (universally after the first couple years) hate their jobs -- this all adds up to lots of them leaning towards early retirement. And/or they are laid off shortly after 50. It happens: at that point their salaries are high enough that the boss (who is also an analyze-everything personality) figures out that he could hire TWO new grads if he lays off the old guy. Young people tend to disbelieve this, thinking their contribution to the company is personal and super-valuable, but it happens.
I agree that the whole dorm thing /protected moving out on your own is great -- if paying for college isn't an issue. On the other hand, if "the experience" is going to saddle you with debt for years, I'd question whether it's worthwhile.

Funny you should say this. I went to a 40th reunion at my University yesterday, and all 3 engineers I graduated with are still working at the same firms they started with out of College. One plans to retire in 5 years, the other two say they don't see themselves retiring.

 

[mdsouth]

He could do two years at Wayne State and the transfer to the University. Knock out his core classes first before transferring.

This is a great idea. My son did this. Everything he took transferred to the four year university because we checked ahead of time. There is an online website where you plug in the school and course you will be taking and the four year schools you will be transferrring into and it tells you if they accept it or not.


Plus, he often would run into students that started off at a four year college only to return to the community college because of cost or because they did not like the school.

Yes, for engineering -- maybe not for all majors -- a successful internship matters more than the school name. Engineers tend to care more about experience than school name.

Of course, exceptions are possible; for example, my husband's old boss was always interested in recruiting /interviewing people who graduated from his own alma mater. Remember, human behavior is involved here.
I've been teaching high school seniors for 26 years, and -- in my lengthy experience - this is an unusual situation. In fact, it's been a couple years since I've seen it happen for anyone at our school. Practically always, the more expensive school ends up being, well, the more expensive school.

By all means, play the game! Try it out! If you prefer a more expensive school, apply and see if you're the exception to the rule -- but, at the same time, apply to at least one affordable school in your own state that you can afford if those anticipated scholarships don't come through. And be sure your student understands that you're keeping all options open until the numbers shake out.

A story: I taught a girl several years ago who -- well, she thought a lot of herself. She was a very good student -- top 10% but certainly not top 10. When May 1st (date students typically need to make a decision) rolled around, she had TWO out-of-state acceptances to expensive private schools ... but, much to her surprise, NO scholarship money. Her father (ironically, an engineer) lost his job right around that same time, and suddenly her parents had to choose between bad choices. Tell her she couldn't go to the schools with which she was in love ... or withdraw money from their retirement to send her to "the school"? If she'd applied to an in-state school, their problem wouldn't have been so severe.
Keep in mind that students don't always stay in their majors. My husband's an engineer. He started in one field of engineering and ended up graduating in a different branch. A starting major is something of a guess made by a high school student with little real knowledge of the field.
That's a cautionary tale!
I loved what my nurse daughter's university did: they sent the students all over the place. By the time she finished, my daughter had experience in the emergency room, in a cancer ward, a burn unit, maternity and mother/baby, a psychological hospital, a nursing home, a school, and a prison -- oh, I can't remember anything else. The point: they provided her with multiple experiences, and the ones she enjoyed most weren't the ones she'd expected to like. For example, most of her classmates enjoyed maternity -- she hated it. And I remember one of my old college roommates coming home from her clinical one day saying, "Today I learned that I am a surgical nurse." Experience is good.
I agree in theory, but engineers often don't have 40+ year careers. Remember I'm married to an engineer. I know LOTS of engineers.

Engineers have analyze-everything personalities, excel at math, make high salaries, and (universally after the first couple years) hate their jobs -- this all adds up to lots of them leaning towards early retirement. And/or they are laid off shortly after 50. It happens: at that point their salaries are high enough that the boss (who is also an analyze-everything personality) figures out that he could hire TWO new grads if he lays off the old guy. Young people tend to disbelieve this, thinking their contribution to the company is personal and super-valuable, but it happens.
I agree that the whole dorm thing /protected moving out on your own is great -- if paying for college isn't an issue. On the other hand, if "the experience" is going to saddle you with debt for years, I'd question whether it's worthwhile.
My youngest wasn't ready to leave home /started at community college. 100% of her classes transferred -- and not just as elective credits.

No, it wasn't luck -- it was good planning. When she started at the community college, she had in mind two universities as potential transfers, and every semester as she registered, she compared her community college requirements against those two schools' requirements -- and she chose classes accordingly. Each of the universities offered an interactive online databank that allows potential students to enter their community college classes and verify if /exactly how those classes'll transfer in. Yes, in the past people might have had to kinda "guess" about what classes might be useful after community college graduation, but today that information is literally at your fingertips.
Obviously none of us know your kid, but -- yeah -- this is a real concern. Sure, sure, he's a high school star -- so is everyone else who starts in the engineering program. Still, the reality is that MOST of the kids who start in engineering don't finish in that program. Sadly, my husband says that when he started his engineering degree in the 80s, everyone looked like him -- American-born white guys. By the time he retired, just two years ago, he says American-born engineers were the minority. He says all the young guys are from Japan or India. Doesn't speak well for the rigor of our schools, especially our math programs.

IF your son were to leave engineering, would the universities in question offer other majors that would suit him? It's almost always more expedient to remain at the same university.

Another teacher here, and one that is married to a mechanical engineer. My husband had similar experiences, especially with older ones being laid off and replaced with younger ones - less salary.

 

[llane]

Wayne state and Oakland are 4 year universities. They are also respected. If it was my student I’d have them go there with minimum debt.

Michigan tech while good is not for everyone. Mainly due to location and the winters.

 

[MrsPete]

Another teacher here, and one that is married to a mechanical engineer. My husband had similar experiences, especially with older ones being laid off and replaced with younger ones - less salary.

Teacher personalities and engineer personalities go together. In my department of eight people, four of us are married to engineers.

My oldest, who is a nurse, says the same thing is true of Nurses and IT people.

 

[manning]

Hi there, chemical engineer here! I graduated four years ago and I actively recruit interns and recent graduates for my company.

I definitely agree that you want to make sure the school has a strong career center with career fairs and company connections. That’s where you land those internships or co-ops. See if you can talk to upperclassmen (or better yet- recent grads) there to get their gauge on success in getting those internships and what the recruitment process is like.

As far as debt goes, I’m a huge supporter of whatever option results in the least amount of debt, especially if your student is a hard worker. Unless the school is absolute garbage, they will come out with the necessary skills. I was able to graduate without debt due to some great scholarships and working through school and the freedom that comes with that is indescribable. The fact that I can put my income toward other things is something many of my friends don’t understand.

YES, THE FREEDOM !!!

 

[crisi]

My daughter just finished her freshman year. And my advice...

A school that they don't graduate from because it isn't a good fit is not a bargain, no matter how little it costs.
Apply at everywhere that is a good fit - make sure that his heart isn't set on any of them - and decide when the package arrives
Evaluate any merit aid with an eye towards requirements to maintain from year to year. College is tough - and even straight A students in high school can find maintaining a 3.0 GPA their Freshman year difficult. A challenging school with high maintenance requirements on the merit package that you need to make it affordable is no bargain long term.
Think about your kid's social personality - a live at home school might be a great decision allowing you to save money (and relieving some of the stress of dorm life and adulting alone for the first time) - or it might mean easy access to the yahoos they hung out with in high school. A far away school might be just what is called for to remove them from their "likely to get 'accidentally' pregnant overly clingy girlfriend" or it might result in a kid who doesn't go back after Christmas break because of overwhelming homesickness.
Something like 80% of students change their majors. Pick a school where if they decide that ChemEng isn't their thing, there will be options. The best (and most expensive) school for Chem Engineering isn't worth the money when your kid decides to pursue Accounting or Theatre.

 

[Mickeypooh99]

I wouldn't consider Oakland inferior to Michigan tech or MSU. I have a nephew commuting to Oakland now for mechanical engineering. He already has a full time job, and takes classes part time. The company will reimburse him for his school once he graduates and commits to work for them for a specified period of time.

I know a lot of MSU students and grads. It's very popular to my area as it's about a 60 minute drive from where we are in west Michigan. I think it's a great school, but I would definitely take the less debt option. I do understand the argument about living on campus to get the full college experience. I just don't think it's necessary. Michigan Tech has a great reputation, but it is so far north and remote. It may be a difficult adjustment for someone who is used to living in a more populated area. My younger son is considering Northern Michigan, but it suits his personality. We already live in a rural area, and visit the UP often so he has an idea. If you like that kind of atmosphere it would probably be great! I think winter would drive me crazy up there!

I agree with applying to all he's interested in, and see what financial aid is offered. My older son was offered a presidential scholarship at Michigan Tech, and University of Michigan. That brought the cost down quit a bit. He then ended up out of state anyway. For us the higher cost private university did end up being the lowest cost option. So that can happen even if it's rare. I never thought we could afford the $70K per year school, and I would not have encouraged him to apply. (Although I would not forbid him to apply) He did it all on his own and told me after.

My husband is a Lawrence tech grad. He is a mechanical engineer. He did a co-op way back in 1994/1995. It took an extra year to graduate, but they reimbursed for his classes during the co-op period, and he had a job after graduation. We really wanted to end up over where I grew up in west Michigan, and he was able to find work over here pretty easily with his Lawrence tech degree.