College or not?

[Shleedogg]

I had this exact conversation with my little sister all summer. She quit high school at 16 and went to community college and got her GED and associates at the same time. She got her associates in English or Liberal Arts, not exactly something usable.

My basic thought is that a 4 year degree is really worth it if it's in something useful. My DH has a BA in computer science and will never need to get a MA, he is extremely marketable and is CTO for an online marketplace company. His brother is a big shot tech guy at Bausch and Lomb (sp?) and only has a BA. I have a BA in history and it is a big, fat, waste of paper and $45,000. I have a friend w/ a BA in applied music, same story. These are worthless degrees w/out an MA to go w/ them. They offer you no specialized training in any field and you aren't really qualified to do anything.

Computer science, nursing, engineering, education, business; those are useful degrees and I'm sure there are more out there that are useful. But just really explain to him the real world. You will have XXX amount of student loan debt when you graduate. I went to a state school, have $45,000 and my payment is about $450/month. So add that to rent, utilities, car payment, etc. Show him how much he needs to make a month to cover expenses. Then maybe go on Monster.com and look for jobs that he would be qualified for right out of school w/ his chosen degree.

My parents are just encouraging my sister to go and get the English degree w/out thought as to what she will face when she gets out. This isn't 20 years ago when just having a degree makes you more marketable. Everyone goes to college now. A lot of people have BAs. I worked for Citigroup, starting at the lowest possible level, doing the same job as people who had just a high school diploma and got advancements at the same rate. It was our job performance that counted, not our degree.

Sorry this is so long, it's a hot button issue for me. Most adults (I know, I am one now, lol) got their BAs 20+ years ago and have lots of job experience to back up their degree so getting hired is easier w/ degrees I consider "useless." I am another story. No one tells you this. Not my parents, not my advisors; not that it was their job. I just feel like I need to warn people! Good luck with your decision!

Oh, ps, have you ever seen Avenue Q?
http://www.stlyrics.com/songs/a/avenueq23882/whatdoyoudowithabainengli****sucksto809583.html

 

[Colleen27]

But unfortunately also a lot of blue collar jobs (policeman, fireman) are using college degrees to weed out applicates. Many township police departments require a 2 year degree before you are even able to take the test. I believe many gov't jobs (fbi, cia, etc) are also becoming like that.

Yeah, unfortunately this seems to be the wave of the future - using degrees as the first cut for jobs that don't require any of the knowledge the degree provides, just because it is easier than sorting through thousands of applications on their individual merits. The agency I used to work for has started requiring a 2 year degree for receptionists and other unskilled, barely over minimum wage ($7.50/hr) office positions, just to cut through the overload of applications coming in.

 

[mistysue]

My parents are just encouraging my sister to go and get the English degree w/out thought as to what she will face when she gets out. This isn't 20 years ago when just having a degree makes you more marketable. Everyone goes to college now. A lot of people have BAs. I worked for Citigroup, starting at the lowest possible level, doing the same job as people who had just a high school diploma and got advancements at the same rate. It was our job performance that counted, not our degree.

Sorry this is so long, it's a hot button issue for me. Most adults (I know, I am one now, lol) got their BAs 20+ years ago and have lots of job experience to back up their degree so getting hired is easier w/ degrees I consider "useless." I am another story. No one tells you this. Not my parents, not my advisors; not that it was their job. I just feel like I need to warn people! Good luck with your decision!
]

Yes! This is what I'm trying to say, I just suck at words. While older people have these degrees and work experience to back it up, younger people just have a degree and it's not getting them anywhere. (unless it is specialized for a hiring field) Unemployment numbers don't tell us much, they certainly don't count the number of people with degrees who are working alongside those without them, in the same positions, for the same pay. Whether or not you have the degree, the one doing the job better often gets the promotion when it is from within. This is more the reality young people are working with. When I went to work at a coffee shop, I was the non-degree holding shift manager for a group of employees with BA degrees... I made more than them AND was their boss. I was also the newer hire.

 

[FINFAN]

a 4 year degree may not be necessary to obtain a job, but it is what will allow one to move up the ladder over the employee who does not, whatever the economic climate may be.
If a student does not need to be in the specialized classes that pertain directly to their major during the first 2 years of college, and they are attending a CC that has an articulation agreement with the 4 year school they plan to transfer to, all is good. Some fields (like my daughters) do not focus on 2 full years of gen eds, they dove directly into her major BUT she will have obtained a Bachelors degree , so she is covered in both the training/trade aspect and the "diploma" aspect. She has said multiple times as difficult as her program is, if she had been required to deal with 2 years of gen eds before even getting to try the courses in her major she would not have been successful, or may have even quit. She needed to be actively learning and attending courses in what she was there for to keep her motivation and hard work ethic going...a pay-off of sorts. Also , she appreciated the fact that since she was immersed freshman year she could decide if her major /career choice was really what she wanted during her Freshman year vs finding out Junior year.
18 is very young to have to know what you want to do with the rest of your life, it is perfectly understandable to take any time needed to decide. Our DS is a Junior and all over the map on his career thoughts. He may go to CC knowing it may take longer than 2 years to get his associates because he plans to take classes outside the AA/Gen Ed course plan so he can a better idea of what is out there in life...as he also wants to dive right in to more interesting classes that he may decide to make a career out of. He knows to be unsure and experiment at $3000 a years vs $30,000. He also has a strong desire to be a pilot and may combine CC while attending private flight school..and working as flight school is not cheap. I think if you keep the lines of communication open, allow your child to follow or at least try what interests them and they are happy in their educational environment, they will be successful. I know society expects the 4 year degree immediately after H.S., then the great job, picket fence etc., but following the sheep is not for everyone and the world needs productive people in all fields...the arts, the trades, the white collar, the philosophers...many parents want their kids to have the immediate social aspect of college, and there is something to be said for the social climate of starting as a freshman at 18 meeting others, forming bonds, getting thru with the help of your friends. Students who transfer in their Junior year pretty much miss out on that, usually students are in apartments or off campus by then so that support system is not quite the same. However, a lot of students also do not need that or prefer to be there without a lot of the distractions that occur in dorm living. It truly is a personal preference. There are also many schoosl that offer on line courses that may be beneficial as long as you know they will transfer...many students learn better at their own pace logging on at 2 a.m., flxing around work hours, Heck, In Iowa...Cornell? A college teaches 1 course for 3-4 weeks intensely, everyday all day...then moves on to the next. It is an awesome option for kids who do not manage their time well spread over 5 different classes / assignments..it allows one to immerse themselves fully in the course and I would think allows the instructor to have far more flexibility as they are not under a 90 minute session 3x's a week...allows more time prehaps for studetns to ask questions, have more than just a textbook aspect of learning. Your daughter may like to speak with her counselor about her learning style and seek out both CC and 4 years schools that are compatible with that. I would try to keep it about your DD as well, I have aquaintances who are so caught up in the fact that they want to be able to say their child attends XYZ University..it has nothing to do with the kid being a good match at said school. Again, I truly believe if a student is happy in their evironment they have a much stronger chance of being successful as it is one less hurdle to overcome. Good luck, they up side? That you have this decision to help her with...college is a choice, you are the consumer now hiring the facility to educate you...not like high school where you go where you are told.

 

[Shleedogg]

There are some very useful CC degrees out there. It sounds though liked your daughter wants to go for art though. I would highly encourage her to look at what she wants to do when she gets out and see if there is a market for her; my guess is that unless it's graphic design, that she will not find many jobs. It's sad, but true and why i switched my major from Music to History after my freshman year.

A paralegal degree, a nursing degree, but just an art degree or liberal arts degrees are not going to be helpful. Most of my managers at Citi had no degree.

I look at my parents and DH's parents and it makes me question college even more. My parents, all 3 (mom, dad, stepdad) all have BAs and MAs. Mom and Step-Dad work at a local community college teaching. Step-Dad is a full professor and doesn't make more than $60k. Mom is head of a dept and a professor and makes about $50. My dad is a substance abuse counselor and also makes around $60. That's it. That's their cap. Step-Dad's degrees are in English, Mom's in psychology and administration, Dad's in psychology and counseling.

DH's parents? His dad has 2 semesters of college and quit to marry his mom. He started out working 3 jobs, mainly as a butcher. He worked his way up in the company, Wegmans, and was eventually a Sr. VP in charge of meat for all of the stores. He retired and is literally a millionaire.

Just make sure the degree is one that is useful. The people that are saying any college degree is useful I really have to suspect are 40+ and entered the job market w/ their degree and it was valuable. Degrees in the arts, unless they're backed by an education degree are not useful, sorry to say, but they're not. I have many, many friends w/ vocal performance degrees who are waiting tables in NYC or are SAHMs.

 

[FINFAN]

There are some very useful CC degrees out there. It sounds though liked your daughter wants to go for art though. I would highly encourage her to look at what she wants to do when she gets out and see if there is a market for her; my guess is that unless it's graphic design, that she will not find many jobs. It's sad, but true and why i switched my major from Music to History after my freshman year.

A paralegal degree, a nursing degree, but just an art degree or liberal arts degrees are not going to be helpful. Most of my managers at Citi had no degree.

I look at my parents and DH's parents and it makes me question college even more. My parents, all 3 (mom, dad, stepdad) all have BAs and MAs. Mom and Step-Dad work at a local community college teaching. Step-Dad is a full professor and doesn't make more than $60k. Mom is head of a dept and a professor and makes about $50. My dad is a substance abuse counselor and also makes around $60. That's it. That's their cap. Step-Dad's degrees are in English, Mom's in psychology and administration, Dad's in psychology and counseling.

DH's parents? His dad has 2 semesters of college and quit to marry his mom. He started out working 3 jobs, mainly as a butcher. He worked his way up in the company, Wegmans, and was eventually a Sr. VP in charge of meat for all of the stores. He retired and is literally a millionaire.

Just make sure the degree is one that is useful. The people that are saying any college degree is useful I really have to suspect are 40+ and entered the job market w/ their degree and it was valuable. Degrees in the arts, unless they're backed by an education degree are not useful, sorry to say, but they're not. I have many, many friends w/ vocal performance degrees who are waiting tables in NYC or are SAHMs.

this is why my DD who is attending an "Art school" is in a 4 year degreed program. Does she run the risk of competing against someone off the street with no formal education but amazing natural talent? Heck yeah...and that person can work for lower pay since they will not have loans to worry about paying back..however, companies/business like to know they can move people up who have had formal training, some do not care but statistically that is the norm . We knew our DD needed both the training and degree..if she were attending a state school that can not specialize in the training as much as her current school she would not be marketable. She is required to take the Language arts, business classes, social sciences, but very minimal in math-history-science ( unless she chooses them which she has that option).....only 1 year worth over the course of the 4 year degree. When comparing the course requirements from her current school to a state school with a same major( computer animation)...the student graduating from the state school will not be as marketable at graduation as there were not as many studio /lab courses required..the time is taken up on the 2 years of gen eds...if that makes sense. Actually, many students where my DD attends went to a traditional 4 year school, found that they need more specialized traing and are now obtaining a second degree in their field.
There is a lot of research that needs to be done on college/advanced education but society as a whole, does look for a formal education process.

 

[Shleedogg]

Yes! This is what I'm trying to say, I just suck at words. While older people have these degrees and work experience to back it up, younger people just have a degree and it's not getting them anywhere. (unless it is specialized for a hiring field) Unemployment numbers don't tell us much, they certainly don't count the number of people with degrees who are working alongside those without them, in the same positions, for the same pay. Whether or not you have the degree, the one doing the job better often gets the promotion when it is from within. This is more the reality young people are working with. When I went to work at a coffee shop, I was the non-degree holding shift manager for a group of employees with BA degrees... I made more than them AND was their boss. I was also the newer hire.

This is my $45,000 degree, hard at work! It's so true. All I could get a job doing right now is customer service or data entry, I'm a wicked typist. I'm one of those people you were talking about at your reunion. I'm a SAHM now because I couldn't get a job doing anything I remotely liked with my degree and job experience. Maybe I'll go back to school for something else when my kids start school, but for now, I'm content.

 

[Shleedogg]

this is why my DD who is attending an "Art school" is in a 4 year degreed program. Does she run the risk of competing against someone off the street with no formal education but amazing natural talent? Heck yeah...and that person can work for lower pay since they will not have loans to worry about paying back..however, companies/business like to know they can move people up who have had formal training, some do not care but statistically that is the norm . We knew our DD needed both the training and degree..if she were attending a state school that can not specialize in the training as much as her current school she would not be marketable. She is required to take the Language arts, business classes, social sciences, but very minimal in math-history-science ( unless she chooses them which she has that option).....only 1 year worth over the course of the 4 year degree. When comparing the course requirements from her current school to a state school with a same major( computer animation)...the student graduating from the state school will not be as marketable at graduation as there were not as many studio /lab courses required..the time is taken up on the 2 years of gen eds...if that makes sense. Actually, many students where my DD attends went to a traditional 4 year school, found that they need more specialized traing and are now obtaining a second degree in their field.
There is a lot of research that needs to be done on college/advanced education but society as a whole, does look for a formal education process.

Computer animation, you know there are jobs out there, that's a new field. It sounds like you guys have done a lot of research for her and that's great that she has you there to help her. My parents just think they know from their own experience and are sadly mistaken; times have changed a lot.

 

[FINFAN]

Computer animation, you know there are jobs out there, that's a new field. It sounds like you guys have done a lot of research for her and that's great that she has you there to help her. My parents just think they know from their own experience and are sadly mistaken; times have changed a lot.

well, we did help her with research becasue we knew our financial limitations and no sense leading her down a path we could not take, but she did just as much seeking on her own, talking to fellow classmates,teachers, counselors etc. Her best move was when she contacted companies directly (such as Pixar, Dreamworks, advertising agencies) to ask them where they recruit from, what schools do they feel prepare students to be competitive, confident and prepared for the real workforce, not just knocking off classes on a list. That initiative put her months ahead in the search process. She attended portfolio reviews her Junior year to help her weed out which schools she wanted to hire to further her education. She was also prepared to wait a year if she did not find a good match right out of highschool. She knew that the arts were for her right off the bat and I guess if we are to take any credit it is in the fact that we allowed her to follow that instict. Way too many families have rolled their eyes at us and said" Art School?" ANYONE can go to art school, my littel Janie is attending a REAL top 10 yadda yadda yadda.....we just smile and know we are actully more educated than them at that point, and know we made the right choice to support our daughter to march tro beat of her own drummer. Also, she is doing extremely well, and 8 of her 'friends" have either transfered, dropped out or are struggling at the schools that their parents insisted on or that they chose for party purposes...buthopefully everyone will find their way eventually.

 

[SoonerSarah]

Here's my experience....

My parents didn't go to college until they were older. I was a freshman in HS when my Dad graduated with 2 associate degrees, and with over a 4.0 GPA. He was diagnosed with dyslexia while in college and really had to work at it. My Mom graduated when I was a junior in HS, she became an RN. She was one of the top in her class and did very, very well. Both of them worked 30+ hours per week and had 4 kids.

My older brother and I (mainly me though), had to help out a lot with our younger sisters. They are 10 and 11.5 years younger than I am. I "missed out" on a lot of normal teenage things, but I can't really say that I regret it. It gave me a lot of life experience and I think helped me prepare for my future.

When I graduated HS, I wasn't really sure what I was going to do. My parents were going to be moving, Mom was having some health issues and so I went with them. I didn't enroll in college and just decided to work. I had a good job and made above minimum wage and I was happy. I was also still able to be there for my parents and sisters. I ended up meeting my hubby and taking on a second job. We got married and moved away. Hubby is a Youth Minister and my life experiences really helped me out. There was the plan for me to go to college, but things didn't work out and I've never regretted it. I think I actually would have regretted going to college, spending the money on an education that wasn't going to really be put to use. I am a SAHM although I used to work as a Secretary until my daughter was 2 (this was at a church, she came to work with DH and I). This was about 5 years ago and my salary at the time was $10 a hour.

I realize that I may end up regretting my decisions at some point later in life, but approaching my 30th birthday, I haven't yet.

Among my sibling, and spouses, none of them have yet to use their degrees. DH's brother did go to college, get a degree and then decide he wanted to do something else, which get went back and got another degree for and is now using that. My brother and his wife have college debts that totaled $80,000 once they graduated, in addition to house, car, etc. Neither of them are using their degrees for work, and they will be paying off college debt for a long time.

 

[DisneyMomma81]

For those of us who are a bit older and for anyone really may I suggest WGU
*WGU is a fully accredited online university offering online bachelor's and master's degree programs.
I'll go back to school someday - and when I do it'll probably be WGU. I make a pretty good wage now ~ if I go to school I want to earn much more when I'm done.

 

[Michelle and crew]

Yeah, unfortunately this seems to be the wave of the future - using degrees as the first cut for jobs that don't require any of the knowledge the degree provides, just because it is easier than sorting through thousands of applications on their individual merits. The agency I used to work for has started requiring a 2 year degree for receptionists and other unskilled, barely over minimum wage ($7.50/hr) office positions, just to cut through the overload of applications coming in.

I don't know. There us a lot to be said for being educated. That us a part of an applicant's individual merit. If a person has the writing skills and math skills, a knowledge of history and science they are a step above the person who doesn't.

 

[Cindy B]

But unfortunately also a lot of blue collar jobs (policeman, fireman) are using college degrees to weed out applicates. Many township police departments require a 2 year degree before you are even able to take the test. I believe many gov't jobs (fbi, cia, etc) are also becoming like that.


Very true.. my current agency (Social Security Adminsitration) requires all new candidates to have at least a bachelors degree.

It was not the norm many years ago and it shows. If you all knew what really went on in that agency, it would make your head spin and really worry about your checks!

 

[Colleen27]

I don't know. There us a lot to be said for being educated. That us a part of an applicant's individual merit. If a person has the writing skills and math skills, a knowledge of history and science they are a step above the person who doesn't.

But why should it be required for positions that demand the writing and math skills of an average middle schools?

 

[Princess_Pris85]

deleted

 

[Cindy B]

There are definetely more useful degree programs than others. I recently graduated (2008) so I have an idea what worked and what "didn't" at my university.

I have two Bachelor's: One is in Writing Arts (not exactly English, not exactly Creative Writing, not a Journalism degree, not exactly a Communications degree. On the whole the Writing Arts degree sounds silly: What exactly is writing arts? I will say the progrom comprised of all types and genres of writing, writing for the media, electronic writing, proper writing style and various methods of writing.

It fit perfect with the other Bachelor's degree in Elementary Education K-5. By having the Writing degree, it automatically qualified me to teach Middle School English since I have a bachelor's degree in an English/Language arts based discipline.

When I wasn't looking for teaching jobs, the professional fields liked the Writing degree. I could feasibly write documentation, legal reports, grants, feasibility reports, white papers, press releases and the like. It wasn't a Creative Writing degree, so it doesn't look like I'm just writing stories or the novel that will never be published.

Some degrees fields are basically useless without additional certifications or graduate level work. These fields include:

History
Psychology(need the masters)
Sociology
Social Work (in my state you need the Masters)
Biology
Humanities
Computer Science --but it depends on the specialization.
Journalism (dead field )
Creative Writing
English
General Studies
American Studies
Anthropology (and the like)
Women's Studies

My nephew earned a Bachelor's in History. He found that he couldn't do much with it and went back for a teaching certification. A work colleague of mine has a Bachelor's in Humanities from an Ivy League school. She works for the federal government in basically an accounts payable position.


Some "hot" degrees would be:

Business Administration
Finance
Accounting
Economics
Public Relations/Advertising (with emphasis on e commerce)
Some health fields but not all.. in some areas of the country it is difficult to find a Nursing position
Science based-- my university just built an entire engineering campus. Some may argue that engineering is a "flooded" field now though.

There are definetely some interesting "certificates" out there for the older professional. The Project Management certification is used a lot. Some industry based certifications may be useful like the MCSE, A+ (sort of fading), and other proprietary systems. Crystal Reports and HP Service Manager certs are also used in all types of industry. I would definetely steer away from those "boot camp" style schools that offer an MCSE or other computer certification in short order.

 

[disfan07]

It depends on the person.

I have known that I want to go into psychology since I was in high school so a 4 year degree was a no brainer for me. But due to some serious health issues, a 4 year school was not an option immediately out of high school I had to take off one year and than completeld 2 years at a community college (1 year in virginia and 1 year in california). I am currently 4 weeks into my first quarter at UC Irvine as a Psychology and Social behavior major and I plan on going to graduate school to get my PhD in developmental psychology. I have very very sepcific goals and a very specific course to follow to get there. So for me, personally, NOT getting a 4 year degree was never an option. But for some people, it is a waste of money if they have no idea what they want to do.

My brother just graduated with a sociology degree last May. Could not find a single job. He is back getting a second degree in Political Science. Hopefully that will be better. His finace is a computer science major. Much more pratical and useful degree than what he got. BUT, he enjoyed college because he enjoyed his major. School has always been difficult for him. There is a chance that he might not have graduated if he had gone in for a major that he did not enjoy.

My mom has always told us to find something that we love and enjoy. She did not want us to go to college just to get a degree for a good job. She did that. She went to college for a business administration degree. She used it for 3 years and has never used it since. She said it was a waste of money but she thought it would be a useful degree. She has been a teaching assistant and an administrative assistant since than. She wishes she had gotten a different degree in something that she really enjoyed instead of a degree for a "good" job.

 

[MrsPete]

My parents are just encouraging my sister to go and get the English degree w/out thought as to what she will face when she gets out. This isn't 20 years ago when just having a degree makes you more marketable. Everyone goes to college now.

Agree: No matter what degree program you're entering, you should consider what you're going to do with it.

Disagree: Not every one graduates from college. Only about 25-30% of all Americans have a bachelor's degree.

Yes! This is what I'm trying to say, I just suck at words. While older people have these degrees and work experience to back it up, younger people just have a degree and it's not getting them anywhere.

We're hiring teachers here -- we have one first-year and one second-year teachers in my small department, and we were unable to find someone to fill one position. My husband's group hasn't hired anyone new lately, but when they do, they prefer to hire degreed engineers who interned during their college years. Those internships are a great way for college students to get that work experience.

Just make sure the degree is one that is useful. The people that are saying any college degree is useful I really have to suspect are 40+ and entered the job market w/ their degree and it was valuable.

I'm in my early 40s, and "any college degree" wasn't useful when I graduated. Certain degrees have ALWAYS been more valuable than others.

I have known that I want to go into psychology since I was in high school so a 4 year degree was a no brainer for me . . . My mom has always told us to find something that we love and enjoy. She did not want us to go to college just to get a degree for a good job.

I recommend that you do an internship or get some volunteer experience early on to see just what's involved in the jobs you think you want. This is one of those fields that people often -- no, make that almost always -- misinterpret as something other than what it actually is.

I disagree with what your mom's told you. Yes, you should pursue a degree /job that you'll enjoy, but it ALSO has to be something that's going to actually get you a job -- a job that'll allow you to live. It's all well and good to pursue what you love, but sometimes those things turn out to be better hobbies than vocations. And no one is destined for one specific job -- we're all good at numerous things and should consider all our talents and strengths. Don't turn that into "Do something you hate because it pays well." Rather, "Search for something you'll enjoy that'll also allow you to live well."

 

[GalDisney]

I went back to college a few yrs ago. I am in my 40's. I originally started as an Elementary Education major but I am chanfging to Business Admin. I work FT at Disney and am hoping a Business Degree will help me advance in the company. The job situation as everyone knows is very bad and not expected to re bound for a couple of years, if at all. And the experts say when it does rebound , there will still be jobs that will never return. A college degree in this economy is mandatory. Degrees in fields like business, accounting and technology are the degrees one should be obtaining...highly skilled areas.
Gotta love America

 

[disfan07]

I recommend that you do an internship or get some volunteer experience early on to see just what's involved in the jobs you think you want. This is one of those fields that people often -- no, make that almost always -- misinterpret as something other than what it actually is.

I have been volunteering at childrens hospitals with child psychologists, developmental psychologists and in the child life department for 3 years. I have 5 psychologists, who I have discussed at length with about what I am interested in, in my family plus 5 years of personal interaction with developmental and child psychologists while being in the hospital.
I am currently volunterring at CHOC in their child life department adn interning with Jewish Social Services in conjunction with their child development program at our JCC.

The thing is, I'm not just a psychology major. My major is Psychology and Social Behavior which is a broader and different degree than a usual B.A or B.S. in psychology. It is focused away from the research aspect and more focused on how psychology and society are related. So its much more focused on developmental aspects, clinical aspects, social work, early intervention programs, etc.