Casey Anthony Trial Thread #3

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Nope. I am still in the camp that ICA taped and bagged the poor angel while still alive

That is what the good Dr. claimed, after he claimed the tape wasn't on her at all. The defense makes no sense.

There was no tape on the skull, but it was applied after decomp??????? You can't have it both ways and to me thats what he testified to.

Moments like this are what I hope gives the prosecution good thoughts on what to throw into their closing statement. Moments like this will allow them to beat Jose to the punch. Moments like this are what make the "doubt" unreasonable as the defense's own experts are grasping at straws. The things they say may have been plausible, but it contradicts actual evidence and the own experts are admitting to that.

I am biting my nails over what the duct tape guy will say. I believe someone posted that the manner in which the duct tape was stuck suggests that it couldn't have been placed on the body prior to decomposing into a skeleton. But I am most interested in the fact that it would require someone with anatomical knowledge to fit the mandible to the rest of the skull perfectly. And if the items separate--how long must that person have searched the forest to find the mandible so they could attach it to the skeleton..and oh yeah...what about the absence of any adhesive residue on said skeleton.

The heart shaped sticker left documented residue. Unfortunately, there is no photograph--but it was noted. So if a heart shaped sticker---leaves residue, one would assume that the duct tape would have had to leave it if it was attached to the bone. I mean--duct tape sticks to EVERYTHING--including hair. Oh yeah--it did that as well.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

One of the tactics allowed during cross examination is impeaching a witness. If Casey comes onto the stand to try and sell the jury on the accidental drowning story, then the prosecutors are allowed to bring up her lying, stealing, etc during cross. Casey's stealing from her family may not come in, but her recent convictions for theft will. That's why putting her on the stand is a suicide mission for the defense.

Ohhh---another point towards the "she won't testify camp".

I keep forgetting things like that. But Baez is incompetent enough to forget that and think his objections will stop it and that his call for a mistrial will be granted. Then he'll go all 5th amendment on us--only, if she can't answer the question because she would incriminate herself. But too late, because door is open and evidence can be submitted at some point about that. .

Now after all that--point back to the "she will testify" camp as Jose is so full of himself that he thinks he can get her in and get her out before the Judge overrules and denies those objections and mistrial requests.

ETA: In this case--I hope that Judge steps in and fully advises Casey of her rights and what is about to be allowed if she chooses to testify. This does not have to be in front of the jury--but I just don't think that Jose is competent to advise his client PROPERLY...since he picks and chooses which court orders to follow and all.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

My problem is, this is the only person that claims this (unless I missed something, which is possible). All her other friends/family never heard any of this mentioned. I can most certainly imagine a 20 year old questioning how her life would have been different if she hadn't had a child so young. Questioning her life doesn't equal wanting to kill her child. I've questioned how my own life would have been different if I had children earlier rather than later and my kids are still around! And to me, with all the "uh......you know..uh" I really don't think he had anything earth shattering in there. After thousands of pages of interviews, one person has two lines saying that she questioned life without her child. I just don't see that as a smoking gun that she didn't want Caylee. Plus, she had a very easy out. She could have walked out that front door without saying a word and left Caylee behind for her parents. I doubt they would have minded one bit and I doubt they would have spent a whole lot of time searching for their daughter.

Right--but her questioning her life and her lying about her child "missing" or "drowning" and her having all sorts of circumstantial moments--all added together...with no other viable alternate suspect...

We don't know what went on in her head--we know that she ACTED very well, because let's face it--lying, requires good acting to be believed. So who is to say she wasn't lying about her motherly image by putting on a good show in public when folks saw her with her daughter.

It is certainly possible that she did both...no longer wanted to be a mother AND wanted to spite her mother all while thinking she could get away with it. She was living the care free life (although a short lived care free life). Someone who wanted to continue to be a mother, whose child died--wouldn't be enjoying their child-free status acting as though they were still the best mother in the world.

When all the puzzle pieces fit together, Casey was far from someone who was contemplating "what if things were different" and fits more closely with the type who goes "what if I could make things different".

We would all like to think that Cindy would have taken the baby with no issue. Casey either did not trust that, or was never going to let that happen even if she did.

(Just my opinion--if this comes across as preachy or unwelcoming, that is NOT my intent...I do realize my post, to me, is passionate.

 

[LisaR]

Okay, I get what you say about the '2 lines' and all that, makes perfect sense. I just don't get what point you're trying to make w/the rest of the comment?

I just don't think Casey hated her life with Caylee. I think she was leading a good life; built in babysitters, no need to work, sweet little kid, etc. I think she enjoyed her life. I could believe that when she made these new friends a few months before Caylee's death, she started to find Caylee to be a burden. I just don't think she spent 2.5 years hating on Caylee because nobody else seems to claim that. I don't think she drugged her for 2 years running. Caylee's health seems to prove otherwise.

I think the Anthony household is dysfunctional. I believe there was a lot of tension between mom and dad regarding their marriage and I think they were probably pushed to a point where they were getting tired of Casey's BS. I am guessing they argued frequently in the final month of Caylee's life and Casey lost it one day in an "I'll show you, mom" type of way.

Again, I fully admit that I could be so far off it isn't even funny. I wish we would hear the truth but I doubt we would know the truth if it smacked us in the face. The Anthony family has lying down to a science.

 

[ilovepete]

Nope. I am still in the camp that ICA taped and bagged the poor angel while still alive

That is what the good Dr. claimed, after he claimed the tape wasn't on her at all. The defense makes no sense.

There was no tape on the skull, but it was applied after decomp??????? You can't have it both ways and to me thats what he testified to.

OH OK. Yeah I totally agree. I just thought you were saying you thought something else. Thanks for clarifying.

 

[Wadecool]

Ohhh---another point towards the "she won't testify camp".

I keep forgetting things like that. But Baez is incompetent enough to forget that and think his objections will stop it and that his call for a mistrial will be granted. Then he'll go all 5th amendment on us--only, if she can't answer the question because she would incriminate herself. But too late, because door is open and evidence can be submitted at some point about that. .

Now after all that--point back to the "she will testify" camp as Jose is so full of himself that he thinks he can get her in and get her out before the Judge overrules and denies those objections and mistrial requests.

ETA: In this case--I hope that Judge steps in and fully advises Casey of her rights and what is about to be allowed if she chooses to testify. This does not
have to be in front of the jury--but I just don't think that Jose is competent to
advise his client PROPERLY...since he picks and chooses which court orders to
follow and all.

At this point, the defense is damned if they do, and damned if they don't. If they do put Casey on the stand, we all know what will come out of that, none of it good for her. If they don't put her on the stand, then Baez has broken a fundamental rule of trials which is promising a jury something in the opening statement that you do not deliver, and the jury will hold that against Casey.

Honestly, the best chance Casey probably has at an appeal may be in claiming "inadequate counsel". I really can't believe Baez passed the bar exam.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

At this point, the defense is damned if they do, and damned if they don't. If they do put Casey on the stand, we all know what will come out of that, none of it good for her. If they don't put her on the stand, then Baez has broken a fundamental rule of trials which is promising a jury something in the opening statement that you do not deliver, and the jury will hold that against Casey.

Honestly, the best chance Casey probably has at an appeal may be in claiming "inadequate counsel". I really can't believe Baez passed the bar exam.

I agree completely!

I think they focused so much on that fifth amendment that they failed to realize that you can't bring up something in open and then not address it at all. "incriminating yourself" is protected---"incriminating others" is not.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Another legal question--inspired by that 5th amendment....

IF a defendant has a Jack Nicholson Moment "I ordered the code red (or whatever it was called), your "dang" right I did"....

The prosecution in the movie immediately stopped the case so that he could be read his rights and be protected by the constitution. Left us with assuming he would get court marshalled and go through that whole process.

What happens IRL?

If Casey on the stand and ended up inadvertently confessing in her testimony, I would assume they would stop the trial.

What would her attorney do? Automatically call for a mistrial? Urge her offsite to plea deal it out since she is now on record? Or would she automatically be found guilty?

What happens legally? Anyone know?

 

[PigletsPal2]

Sorry, I'm not very computer literate and don't know how to copy links, but I found the article on Judge Perry very interesting. I wonder if his constantly-twitching leg is a symptom of early-stage Parkinson's disease?

Queen Colleen

 

[MaryAnnDVC]

Right--but her questioning her life and her lying about her child "missing" or "drowning" and her having all sorts of circumstantial moments--all added together...with no other viable alternate suspect...

We don't know what went on in her head--we know that she ACTED very well, because let's face it--lying, requires good acting to be believed. So who is to say she wasn't lying about her motherly image by putting on a good show in public when folks saw her with her daughter.

It is certainly possible that she did both...no longer wanted to be a mother AND wanted to spite her mother all while thinking she could get away with it. She was living the care free life (although a short lived care free life). Someone who wanted to continue to be a mother, whose child died--wouldn't be enjoying their child-free status acting as though they were still the best mother in the world.

When all the puzzle pieces fit together, Casey was far from someone who was contemplating "what if things were different" and fits more closely with the type who goes "what if I could make things different".

We would all like to think that Cindy would have taken the baby with no issue. Casey either did not trust that, or was never going to let that happen even if she did.

(Just my opinion--if this comes across as preachy or unwelcoming, that is NOT my intent...I do realize my post, to me, is passionate.

I agree. And I really don't understand (but certainly welcome their opinions ) people who seem to swear by Casey having been a "good mother" before Caylee died. Casey certainly pulled off happy cheerful behavior IMMEDIATELY after Caylee's death, KNOWING she was dead. So why are people so willing to accept as fact that Casey "loved" her daughter and was a "good" mother based on what she put out there? If she could pull off the behavior that she did after Caylee was dead, why not before?

And to say that we all got frustrated with our kids, or we all have weird searches on our computers, or we all partied in college, etc...WE didn't end up with a dead child, "missing" for 31 days, etc.

I just don't think Casey hated her life with Caylee. I think she was leading a good life; built in babysitters, no need to work, sweet little kid, etc. I think she enjoyed her life. I could believe that when she made these new friends a few months before Caylee's death, she started to find Caylee to be a burden. I just don't think she spent 2.5 years hating on Caylee because nobody else seems to claim that. I don't think she drugged her for 2 years running. Caylee's health seems to prove otherwise.

I think the Anthony household is dysfunctional. I believe there was a lot of tension between mom and dad regarding their marriage and I think they were probably pushed to a point where they were getting tired of Casey's BS. I am guessing they argued frequently in the final month of Caylee's life and Casey lost it one day in an "I'll show you, mom" type of way.

Again, I fully admit that I could be so far off it isn't even funny. I wish we would hear the truth but I doubt we would know the truth if it smacked us in the face. The Anthony family has lying down to a science.

I agree with much of what you said, except for the "no need to work", because she DID need to work, but didn't...she just lied about it. And the "sweet little kid"...there are lots of sweet little kids who are victims of their parents. And altho I don't believe Casey hated her life with Caylee, I do think it reached the point of Caylee being a burden. As far as drugging, I think she did, low-dose, at times...not on a habitual basis.

I think that everything was coming together all at once...new friends and their carefree lifestyles (including being able to take off for that trip to Puerto Rico), her parents' issues with each other, her mother's issues with her and her parenting, Caylee being older and needing more attention perhaps (potty training, talking more...not so easy to party with her there)

I don't understand people's belief that all Casey had to do was hand Caylee over to parents and voila! problem solved. Of course we all say that now, as I'm sure George and Cindy would, but I don't think that would have been an easy thing for Casey to do. Ever see the Dr Phil family? The daughter was 15 when she had her first baby, now in her early 20's has 3 (3 different fathers), is involved with drugs and creepy people, and her parents have her 3 kids. Her parents aren't happy having to parent her kids (altho love their grandchildren), their relationship is contentious, the daughter doesn't want her mother to have the kids, etc. Unfortunately, it's not just a simple rosy solution, to just hand the child over to the grandparents and walk away.

 

[phamton]

Sorry, I'm not very computer literate and don't know how to copy links, but I found the article on Judge Perry very interesting. I wonder if his constantly-twitching leg is a symptom of early-stage Parkinson's disease?

Queen Colleen

My husband is always shaking his legs. He's done it all his life. He sometimes even shakes his foot back and forth while he is asleep. It drives me crazy. It's just a way for him to get rid of "nervous energy" and is a habit he doesn't even notice that he is doing.

 

[denisem]

My problem is, this is the only person that claims this (unless I missed something, which is possible). All her other friends/family never heard any of this mentioned. I can most certainly imagine a 20 year old questioning how her life would have been different if she hadn't had a child so young. Questioning her life doesn't equal wanting to kill her child. I've questioned how my own life would have been different if I had children earlier rather than later and my kids are still around! And to me, with all the "uh......you know..uh" I really don't think he had anything earth shattering in there. After thousands of pages of interviews, one person has two lines saying that she questioned life without her child. I just don't see that as a smoking gun that she didn't want Caylee. Plus, she had a very easy out. She could have walked out that front door without saying a word and left Caylee behind for her parents. I doubt they would have minded one bit and I doubt they would have spent a whole lot of time searching for their daughter.

That's fair. I brought out the one quote that was in black & white. But I tend to read between the lines. I.E., Jesse Grund's interview, where he stated he couldn't believe ICA would do anything harmful to her child. But later calls her a diabolical liar and offers that ICA is a chameleon, changing her interests/values according to whomever she is dating at the time and gave several compelling examples. Tony L was a Fusion partying single who didn't want Caylee around on a regular basis.

Brittany Schieber (old, friend, another single mom) couldn't figure out how ICA had all this time to "go out". Yet another old friend left by the wayside when ICA made her "newer/better" friends. I think it's significant that all her "friends" seen on the witness stand knew her less than...what? A year?? ICA was extremely skilled at compartmentalizing (sp?) her family/friends. They each had their own version of the "truth" and it appears no one compared notes until Caylee was declared missing.

As far as ICA giving custody to the Anthony's - that was never going to happen, IMHO. The Anthony's were all about "appearances" as the perfect family & ICA took it a step further. (She didn't have a babysitter, SHE had a nanny. She didn't put people in lines at Universal Studios, SHE was an event planner.) Relinquishing custody to her parents would not only put an end to ICA's meal ticket, but how could she spin that a loving mother such as herself would give up custody of her own child???

 

[usnuzuloose]

Another legal question--inspired by that 5th amendment....

IF a defendant has a Jack Nicholson Moment "I ordered the code red (or whatever it was called), your "dang" right I did"....

The prosecution in the movie immediately stopped the case so that he could be read his rights and be protected by the constitution. Left us with assuming he would get court marshalled and go through that whole process.

What happens IRL?

If Casey on the stand and ended up inadvertently confessing in her testimony, I would assume they would stop the trial.

What would her attorney do? Automatically call for a mistrial? Urge her offsite to plea deal it out since she is now on record? Or would she automatically be found guilty?

What happens legally? Anyone know?

I cant remember where I read it, I either looked it up or it was under ask the judge, but if the defendant admits guilt the trial still continues. Sounds strange but I guess thats how the leagal system works.

 

[Kurby]

Another legal question--inspired by that 5th amendment....

IF a defendant has a Jack Nicholson Moment "I ordered the code red (or whatever it was called), your "dang" right I did"....

The prosecution in the movie immediately stopped the case so that he could be read his rights and be protected by the constitution. Left us with assuming he would get court marshalled and go through that whole process.

What happens IRL?

If Casey on the stand and ended up inadvertently confessing in her testimony, I would assume they would stop the trial.
What would her attorney do? Automatically call for a mistrial? Urge her offsite to plea deal it out since she is now on record? Or would she automatically be found guilty?

What happens legally? Anyone know?

jack wasn't on trial - he was a witness and therefore wasn't read his rights prior to trial - no need.

casey on the other had is on trial - at some point she was read her rights - maybe not at the exact time the defense thinks she should have been read them but that's already been overruled because she wasn't a suspect at the time - the cops were looking for her child and trying to get info from her to find her.

so no - if she stood up and said i did it - the trial would continue on

 

[LisaR]

I agree. And I really don't understand (but certainly welcome their opinions ) people who seem to swear by Casey having been a "good mother" before Caylee died. Casey certainly pulled off happy cheerful behavior IMMEDIATELY after Caylee's death, KNOWING she was dead. So why are people so willing to accept as fact that Casey "loved" her daughter and was a "good" mother based on what she put out there? If she could pull off the behavior that she did after Caylee was dead, why not before?

And to say that we all got frustrated with our kids, or we all have weird searches on our computers, or we all partied in college, etc...WE didn't end up with a dead child, "missing" for 31 days, etc. I agree with much of what you said, except for the "no need to work", because she DID need to work, but didn't...she just lied about it. And the "sweet little kid"...there are lots of sweet little kids who are victims of their parents. And altho I don't believe Casey hated her life with Caylee, I do think it reached the point of Caylee being a burden. As far as drugging, I think she did, low-dose, at times...not on a habitual basis.

I think that everything was coming together all at once...new friends and their carefree lifestyles (including being able to take off for that trip to Puerto Rico), her parents' issues with each other, her mother's issues with her and her parenting, Caylee being older and needing more attention perhaps (potty training, talking more...not so easy to party with her there)

I don't understand people's belief that all Casey had to do was hand Caylee over to parents and voila! problem solved. Of course we all say that now, as I'm sure George and Cindy would, but I don't think that would have been an easy thing for Casey to do. Ever see the Dr Phil family? The daughter was 15 when she had her first baby, now in her early 20's has 3 (3 different fathers), is involved with drugs and creepy people, and her parents have her 3 kids. Her parents aren't happy having to parent her kids (altho love their grandchildren), their relationship is contentious, the daughter doesn't want her mother to have the kids, etc. Unfortunately, it's not just a simple rosy solution, to just hand the child over to the grandparents and walk away.

I don't think anybody on this thread "swears" that Casey was a good mother. I certainly don't. I am just contemplating and throwing out ideas. Some people look at the pictures of Casey and Caylee and see something in Casey's eyes that indicate she didn't love Caylee. I just don't see that. The pictures from the early years show me a mother that loved her daughter. Admittedly, I could be wrong. Again, I wish I knew the truth.

I do believe that Casey saw big changes in her personal life in the last few months and that is when Caylee became a burden. Couple that with even more tension than normal at home and I think Casey decided to "solve" one of her "problems."

When I watch the video of Caylee on Father's Day, I see nothing but a happy, healthy little girl. I don't know what an almost 3 year old would look like if they were being chloroformed and/or given Xanex on a regular basis but I have looked at that final video a hundred times and I just don't see a little girl that looks like she is being drugged.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

LisaR: I don't see anything in the pictures. Also--I dont think witnesses testified that they were of the opinion that she was a good mother (that I recall). The questioning I saw, Jose asked about Caylee leaving the jury to conclude she must have been a good mother. I did not see all of the witnesses though. But I don't think that they can give a character opinion--which may be why Jose asked in the manner that he did.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

What is Xanax? Is it a drug that accumulates or a drug that metabolizes and exits the body? Just curious.

 

[CurlyGirl]

I don't know what an almost 3 year old would look like if they were being chloroformed and/or given Xanex on a regular basis but I have looked at that final video a hundred times and I just don't see a little girl that looks like she is being drugged.

What is regular basis to you? IMO, being drugged on a regular basis would be every day or, at the least, every other day.

Who knows how often Caylee was drugged? Probably when Casey couldn't find a babysitter and needed her to sleep so she could party. Was that every night?

As far as Caylee looking drugged - if given a Xanax or chloroform to relax her/make her sleep, I doubt you'd see the results of that. A person would sleep that drug off and be fine. Doesn't the Xanax commercial say "Make sure you will be able to get 8 hours of sleep while taking this medication"? I'm sure that Caylee got that amount of sleep. Plus, she was probably given a far lower dose where there wouldn't be any after effects of being drugged.

The only thing I could find on continual exposure to chloroform was red, dry, cracking skin.

If anything, and Caylee looked sleepy, liar Casey probably would've said she didn't sleep well that night or have some excuse for her being lethargic if it was noticed.

Obviously, nothing from being drugged was noticed by any outsiders or someone would've said something, I'm sure. Especially Cindy and George.

 

[LisaR]

What is regular basis to you? IMO, being drugged on a regular basis would be every day or, at the least, every other day.

Who knows how often Caylee was drugged? Probably when Casey couldn't find a babysitter and needed her to sleep so she could party. Was that every night?

As far as Caylee looking drugged - if given a Xanax or chloroform to relax her/make her sleep, I doubt you'd see the results of that. A person would sleep that drug off and be fine. Doesn't the Xanax commercial say "Make sure you will be able to get 8 hours of sleep while taking this medication"? I'm sure that Caylee got that amount of sleep. Plus, she was probably given a far lower dose where there wouldn't be any after effects of being drugged.

The only thing I could find on continual exposure to chloroform was red, dry, cracking skin.

If anything, and Caylee looked sleepy, liar Casey probably would've said she didn't sleep well that night or have some excuse for her being lethargic if it was noticed.

Obviously, nothing from being drugged was noticed by any outsiders or someone would've said something, I'm sure. Especially Cindy and George.

I don't know. I honestly don't know how often or even if Casey was drugging her. If she was drugging her, where was she sleeping for 8 hours? When Casey was spending the night with Tony, she was there for more than 8 hours. Caylee didn't spend the night there so where was she? What happened to Caylee if she woke in 6 hours instead of 8?

I take a Xanax to fly. It does not make me sleepy at all. I obviously weigh a lot more than little Caylee so I don't know how much one would give a toddler to make her sleep a solid 8 hours. Xanax isn't a sleeping pill. It is meant to relax the person. The side effect can be drowsiness but that can be said for many drugs. Even a sleeping pill doesn't guarantee an exact number of hours of sleep. People take them and still find themselves waking up in the middle of the night. Where was Caylee stashed while she was being drugged?

 

[LisaR]

LisaR: I don't see anything in the pictures. Also--I dont think witnesses testified that they were of the opinion that she was a good mother (that I recall). The questioning I saw, Jose asked about Caylee leaving the jury to conclude she must have been a good mother. I did not see all of the witnesses though. But I don't think that they can give a character opinion--which may be why Jose asked in the manner that he did.

I distinctly remember her friends and family saying on the stand that she seemed to love Caylee, laughed and played with her, and seemed to have a good relationship. I get that Casey lied to all of these people and she could have been putting on a front. I do not rule out the possibility that it was all an act. However, in my experience with people that have a low tolerance level for their kids, it eventually comes out. Maybe she kept it well hidden or maybe her family and friends are still protecting her?

I should add that I don't think her friends saw her with Caylee all that often so they had very little to go on.