Can't go during school year anymore :-(

[Tropical Wilds]

Teachers get approximately 25% of the year off as vacation. The Stones said it best: " you can't always get what you want". The OP seems to want all that scheduled time off PLUS low crowds. At the very beginning of the school year, without considering the impact her intentions will have on her students.

No, teachers have approximately 25% of the year where they're not working. They do not get paid for that time off. This is very different from vacation time, which are days earned where you can not work and still get paid.

I don't even begin to agree with taking a week of in September, at the start of the school year, and try as I might I don't see the injustice of the situation for most of the reasons I stated in a previous post... But none of those reasons have to do with the misnomer that teachers get a week off for Thanksgiving, a week off for Christmas, a week off in Feb, a week off in April, and an entire summer to themselves. I know a lot of those "weeks off" for students are what are called in-service/working days for teachers, review periods, times spent resetting the semester, and training. More importantly, I know they're not paid if they're not at work.

If I had a job where I had that much time where I simply couldn't work, and I wasn't being paid during that period, I wouldn't be exactly grateful for the time off, if you know what I mean. I'd much rather work a regular 40 every week, get a paid 2-4 weeks off that I take at my choosing, and know that I don't have to take my work home with me so I can complete basic functions for being successful at my job without being paid for it.

In this day and age, I'm simply shocked at the number of people who still think teachers work from 8-3 everyday, are out the door 5 minutes after the kids, and have a summer "off." Most people wouldn't want the type of working arrangement teachers have, myself included.

Do I still think that it's unreasonable to expect a week off in September? Absolutely, but not for the reasons that teachers get so much vacation already. It's just simply not an appropriate time to expect to be away for so long.

 

[bumbershoot]

I'm glad you got your time approved for this year!

What a bummer your principal is so awful at communicating with you.

...but why not go when you are not supposed to be at school? The weather in Sept. is still miserably hot. Why not go in June or August?

That's one of the things she's talking about, that she *likes* going at quieter times, and is sad that she will, starting next year, have to go at busier times.

...but I find it hard to believe that teachers should have so much vacation when they get so much time off during the summer.

I went to a university that has an MAT program. I knew a lot of them my last year of college. A strangely high amount of my friends during my 20s were student-teachers or new teachers. Several of my friends even beyond that were teachers.

And they seem to want it both ways, which is what I'm seeing in this thread too.

We get the whole summer off! Go then! We have to work over the summer, how dare you think we just get the whole summer off.

And so on and so forth.

Having experienced a 5th grade teacher who was dealing with such high levels of stress that she had a full blown "nervous breakdown" (as they called it then) in front of our class. Was out for the rest of the year. Then over the summer, the 6th grade teacher retired, and she was brought back to teach our same class for 6th grade. That was *scary*. At my 20th HS reunion some of us (who had gone to school together from 1st grade on) were talking about it, and how frightening it was. Now some of that stress was caused by the 3 boys in the class who were stoners and total troublemakers. But I'm sure the whole "teachers don't get time off" thing didn't help. She couldn't hold it in until summer.

My experiences with burned out teachers, should be retired teachers (including the head of a department in college who felt that asking question about the Beatles was more important than questions about Linear Algebra), and just general teachers who didn't care...I knew *the minute I heard about it* that I would be homeschooling any kids I had.

Hate to tell you but I am with the principal on this one. Sorry.

So you think that a boss should IGNORE an employee's continued attempts at discussion from May to late August? Should wait until nearly the last moment to mention that this vacation wasn't going to be approved? Should do something so completely opposite what has been done before?

Oh, and then should go back on what she just said was SO important, for a promise for the *following* year?

I really disagree.

It really annoys me when people think we just walk out of school on the last day of the school year and pull up a beach chair, throw a pina colada in our hand, and do NOTHING all summer.

You should probably look to some of your colleagues across the country who GIVE people that impression.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

Yeah...if it's the first few weeks of school that is worrisome. I forget about that since our school started last week. UGH! I forget some places don't start till after Labor Day (lucky!!) By September, we are well into routine and such. I feel sure the OP is intelligent enough, though, to know she shouldn't be out during testing or semester exams, etc. If she was, then the principal would have surely said that was why she couldn't be out. Right?

Around here, we don't start until after Labor Day, but it's not so "lucky." Honestly, we wait so long because our schools don't have air conditioning and are not allowed to run fans. Starting earlier would be just painful and miserable for everybody. It's also the reason we don't do year-round schooling, despite there being a big demand for it. We started one year the week before and I thought people were going to assassinate the school board.

On the flip side, school can run all the way through mid-to-late June, depending on snow days. I believe last year, the last day of school was in and around the 18th of June.

Even when schools are into their routine, in September there's still a lot of stuff going on... My sister, who's kids start beginning/mid August, has open houses and conferences starting around that time. Around here, we have some ridiculous NCLB exam they do to establish beginning and end knowledge for the students. It's just not a good time to go.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

When the OPer goes on this trip, she will have been back at work less than a month following a ten to twelve week vacation.

Not a vacation, not 10 weeks not working, and all of it unpaid.

I don't disagree with it being unreasonable to expect to get that time off, but around here, from I think a week (maybe two?) weeks after the last day and two weeks before the first day, they're not working... And not getting paid. This is entirely different than paid time off that teachers earn to take during the school year. It's not like a vacation at most jobs, which is defined as paid days off to use as you please. It's an unpaid leave.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

So you think that a boss should IGNORE an employee's continued attempts at discussion from May to late August? Should wait until nearly the last moment to mention that this vacation wasn't going to be approved? Should do something so completely opposite what has been done before?

Oh, and then should go back on what she just said was SO important, for a promise for the *following* year?

I really disagree.

During the summer, teaching contracts are still being hammered out. A principle has no way of knowing or confirming if a vacation can be taken when their staffing for the year is still being worked out. It's unreasonable to be able to expect anybody to approve a vacation for that kind of time when you don't even know what staff you have available to cover the vacancy. And in most positions I've ever worked, vacations can be approved or denied up to two weeks before they're requested. If she got the notice today that she could go, she's still got the better part of 4 weeks notice. Not at all unreasonable.

And if we're going on the "it's summer, teachers don't work" mantra, wouldn't her asking the principal during a period where they're "not working" mean that the principal couldn't approve or not approve time off? They're not working, after all... When I'm not at work, I don't grant or not grant vacations... I'm not working...

As for what was done before, she took the vacation in October the previous year, not September. That's a whole different ball of wax. One cannot reasonably assume that because that's when they got their vacation one year, that they will have it granted that same time each year... And they certainly can't expect that will translate to requests for a month before the dates being honored. That's not fair to her co-workers who may also want the time off during the same period. She should not have assumed that because she's had that time off one year ago, that's now "her week" to take off every year. Other people may have other plans, events, or needs that fall on the same week and everybody has an equal opportunity to apply for that time off for their own use. It's highly presumptive to just assume that you can state what your vacation dates are, you'll be granted them unconditionally, and that nobody else could want the same dates or have access to them for their time off.

You should probably look to some of your colleagues across the country who GIVE people that impression.

With all due respect, what do you expect teachers to do? "Welcome back kids! How was your summer? I have to tell you, for the entire month of July I didn't know if I was coming back to work because it took so long for my contract to be hammered out... Started working at Wal*Mart to make ends meet, then had to take 3 days off of that to do an in-service for the job I didn't even know if I'd have... And if I didn't have it, it'd certainly be too late to apply somewhere else... So all and all, what a stressful summer! And what did you do?"

 

[mking624]

Not a vacation, not 10 weeks not working, and all of it unpaid.

I don't disagree with it being unreasonable to expect to get that time off, but around here, from I think a week (maybe two?) weeks after the last day and two weeks before the first day, they're not working... And not getting paid. This is entirely different than paid time off that teachers earn to take during the school year. It's not like a vacation at most jobs, which is defined as paid days off to use as you please. It's an unpaid leave.

It's not a paid vacation, but it is still time off nonetheless. And even if it is unpaid, a teacher still gets paid more than we make in my household (not going to argue what a teacher deserves, just stating that if a teacher can make $3500 work for a September trip, she can just as easily make it work for the month before). My husband earns paid time off, but there's also an understanding not to use it during critical times and that he can't just take it all at once unless it is for a very good reason (vacation doesn't count as a good reason to us or to his job). Doesn't matter if it's earned, he cannot take certain days off. The job needs him there. I'd really like to see Disney at Christmas. But we can't because of my husband's job. That's life. Disney is a luxury...I'm assuming this teaching job and its income are necessities. Your luxury has to work around your necessities, not the other way around.

Enjoy your trip but just warning you, there are a lot of defensive parents (and "perfect" teachers) on the DIS who have and will explode when reading this.

I think this is completely unnecessary. People here have expressed their opinion. There are a LOT of people who post on this forum. Expecting every last one of them to be completely on your side is unreasonable. If anyone expects that, they probably shouldn't post here.

 

[LPnerd]

[QUOTE="Cinder" Ella's Mom;45946269]I am a high school teacher and while we get 12 sick days per year, they can not be used for anything other than illness. We have 3 personal days...that is it for the year. I am taking 2 for a long weekend at WDW in September. I have to say I have never heard of a teacher being able to vacation for a week or more during the school year. That would be amazing. Our DCL cruise on the Fantasy next summer is about $3000.00 more than if we could go during the school year! Hope you enjoy the trip![/QUOTE]

this is what I thought, like huh? they would have a cow if a kid missed 5 days of school and they were sick... so on years when we wanted to travel, I home schooled... the kids learned more that way and in more detail, In fact if I had to do it again I would have homes schooled through all of middle school.
don't you get three months off in the summer or two and a half??? maybe you cold find a year round school to teach at, they have different times off. and its better for the kids. Sorry you seem so upset... but I don't get it at all.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

It's not a paid vacation, but it is still time off nonetheless. And even if it is unpaid, a teacher still gets paid more than we make in my household (not going to argue what a teacher deserves, just stating that if a teacher can make $3500 work for a September trip, she can just as easily make it work for the month before).

I don't disagree that the timing of her vacation is inappropriate, just that the notion that teachers have a ton of vacation already. Considering that time isn't paid, it's almost like not having a job.

As for the cost of her vacation, that's really irrelevant. That money I'm sure is household money, not teaching money alone. If she can afford to spend that on a vacation, that's not an indication of what a teacher makes, but what her household makes vs yours. Not knowing what her husband makes, and knowing it's none of our business, it's not unrealistic to assume that at least a portion of the trip comes from that income, and considering most people charge at least some or all of the trip, it's not unreasonable to think she's paying an amount based on what her credit can handle. To assume that because she can afford the vacation means something about what she is and isn't entitled to take is not appropriate.

My husband earns paid time off, but there's also an understanding not to use it during critical times and that he can't just take it all at once unless it is for a very good reason (vacation doesn't count as a good reason to us or to his job). Doesn't matter if it's earned, he cannot take certain days off. The job needs him there. I'd really like to see Disney at Christmas. But we can't because of my husband's job. That's life. Disney is a luxury...I'm assuming this teaching job and its income are necessities. Your luxury has to work around your necessities, not the other way around.

At no time did I give the impression I thought the timing of her vacation was OK or that I disagreed with the principal.

 

[Sphinx610]

There's no difference if I take the days all together or if I spread them out over the school year. I still miss the same amount of days.

it absolutely makes a difference in the consistency of your lesson plans and learning patterns of your students. A sub doesn't cut it. The pp is right- all summer, long weekends, spring break, fall/winter break, etc.... (i have several friends who r teachers btw) You have plenty of off time for personal trips. I have the utmost respect for teachers. I really do; its a difficult job and not everyone can do it. I think many times teachers are under appreciated and underpaid. but it goes both ways- you have a responsibility to your students. it does impact your students when you are gone for an extended time period. So to answer your question- Yes. Absolutely it makes a difference if you take all the days at once. I make my plans for vacation around the school schedule so my son gets all the teacher face time he can get bc I take his education seriously. I would have just assumed the teachers would plan their vacations accordingly. You get sick or there is a Family emergency thats one thing- but taking a whole school week just to beat disney crowds? Sorry I just can't empathize...

 

[mking624]

I don't disagree that the timing of her vacation is inappropriate, just that the notion that teachers have a ton of vacation already. Considering that time isn't paid, it's almost like not having a job.

As for the cost of her vacation, that's really irrelevant. That money I'm sure is household money, not teaching money alone. If she can afford to spend that on a vacation, that's not an indication of what a teacher makes, but what her household makes vs yours. Not knowing what her husband makes, and knowing it's none of our business, it's not unrealistic to assume that at least a portion of the trip comes from that income, and considering most people charge at least some or all of the trip, it's not unreasonable to think she's paying an amount based on what her credit can handle. To assume that because she can afford the vacation means something about what she is and isn't entitled to take is not appropriate.

This isn't a my salary vs. teacher's salary argument I am making. I brought up the cost because she made it a point to use it as part of her argument with the principal...so obviously it IS relevant. What I specifically said is that if she can make $3500 work for a September trip, she can just as easily make it for a trip the month before. And considering she knew well enough in advance to start requesting this time off over the spring, then I don't find the whole "teachers don't get paid over the summer" to be a valid argument. She knew about the trip before this unpaid time off began. And regardless of where the money is coming from, I am growing wearing of this whole "unpaid" summer time being stressed over and over (as there have been posts talking about the need to take additional jobs). We get it, it's unpaid. But if you can manage to take a $3500 vacation at the beginning of the school year, then I am uninterested in seeing people defend how hard summer can be with it being unpaid. I am not necessarily saying YOU personally are defending it, just wanted to explain why some of us really aren't aching over the whole "unpaid" thing when a $3500 vacation can be afforded. For many of us, it would be no different than seeing someone complain about being unemployed...all the while discussing this marvelous and costly upcoming vacation they are taking.

At no time did I give the impression I thought the timing of her vacation was OK or that I disagreed with the principal.

I didn't say you did. Mostly just pointing out that an unpaid leave is still time off. And I think that part of my argument is key...that I'm really not trying to say you are defending her at all. Just trying to address that part, and throw in some additional thoughts.

 

[LPnerd]

Where's the LIKE button for this???? Ha!!

I believe teachers have the option to have their paychecks over the summer, or divided over the schoold year, in most states it's an option. don't care, just sayin'

 

[Tropical Wilds]

This isn't a my salary vs. teacher's salary argument I am making. I brought up the cost because she made it a point to use it as part of her argument with the principal...so obviously it IS relevant. What I specifically said is that if she can make $3500 work for a September trip, she can just as easily make it for a trip the month before. And considering she knew well enough in advance to start requesting this time off over the spring, then I don't find the whole "teachers don't get paid over the summer" to be a valid argument. She knew about the trip before this unpaid time off began. And regardless of where the money is coming from, I am growing wearing of this whole "unpaid" summer time being stressed over and over (as there have been posts talking about the need to take additional jobs). We get it, it's unpaid. But if you can manage to take a $3500 vacation at the beginning of the school year, then I am uninterested in seeing people defend how hard summer can be with it being unpaid. I am not necessarily saying YOU personally are defending it, just wanted to explain why some of us really aren't aching over the whole "unpaid" thing when a $3500 vacation can be afforded. For many of us, it would be no different than seeing someone complain about being unemployed...all the while discussing this marvelous and costly upcoming vacation they are taking.

Honestly, it's not about the cost at all... Who knows if her salary is paying it, her husband's salary is paying for it, they're putting it on credit... Whatever. I'd even debate the marvouslesness of a vacation at $3500... Considering our vacations cost about $1200, that would be an all-out romp for us... A deluxe with an upgraded dining plan. But if they're a family of 4 there for a week, I'm guessing a value or a moderate (unless that includes her airfare, then probably value), free dining, perhaps Park Hoppers. Hardly a trip that's above and beyond the average. Her stress isn't the luxury of the vacation, it's eating the cost of the vacation that she can't go on or losing salary for a week, both pretty significant losses for anybody. The numbers that are thrown around really mean very little to the discussion, other than the amount lost showing why it was a source stress for her. If she can or can't afford it a month earlier or a month later, not the point really.

The reason I and others keep mentioning that the time off is unpaid is because, regardless of if they had the time off or not, teachers still earn paid vacation like everybody else. The unpaid leave that they get during the summer doesn't negate that. That time is not their vacation, it's unpaid time off. It has no bearing on their job in terms of what they're allowed to take during the school year that is paid, and that's what she's trying to use. The argument "but you just had a vacation" isn't accurate as it was neither a vacation because the time off wasn't paid, and irrelevant because it doesn't negate or void the time that she earns to spend as paid time off. My husband has 8 weeks off a year. If he wanted to take a week off every month except for between November and the first week of January (the no-vacation window at his job), he could as long as his boss agreed. The "didn't you just have a vacation" argument from the outsiders or other co-workers wouldn't matter... He has the time off, it's his to spend regardless of when his last paid or unpaid leave was or wasn't.

The fact that she probably had time off in June or July means little to the validity to a vacation paid vacation she wants in September... The time off was not part of her job, it was unpaid, it was time off outside the confines of operation from her job. It's totally irrelevant. She wasn't working, she wasn't paid. It was like an unemployment. That's not a reason to say somebody doesn't need, deserve, or should take a paid vacation based on time earned by being an employee.

That said, the fact that it's a blackout time for vacations certainly does matter. She earns the time off, but like any job, there's restrictions to how and when it can be used. I don't have sympathy that she tried to use the time during an inappropriate period and was shut down, and if I were a co-worker I'd be irritated that the blackout dates don't apply to her, and I'd expect that if I needed time off at the same window, it'd be honored because she's set a precedent. I think it was unwise to book, pay for, and plan a vacation prior to confirming the time off. I agree with the principal entirely in their decision to reject the vacation.

That's the reason the vacation doesn't work, not because she just had a break to whatever degree.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

I believe teachers have the option to have their paychecks over the summer, or divided over the schoold year, in most states it's an option. don't care, just sayin'

Yes, but it's based off of banking income they previously earned, paid out over a longer period of time. It's not additional pay for time earned. It's the difference between winning the lottery and paying it out over a period of time and winning the lottery twice, taking lump sums both times. The person who's taking the payments may still be getting money in payments longer than the lump sum winner, but it's off of an old winning spread out. The two-time winner got new income off the second lottery winning that the spread out payment person didn't earn.

 

[maxiesmom]

Yes, but it's based off of banking income they previously earned, paid out over a longer period of time. It's not additional pay for time earned. It's the difference between winning the lottery and paying it out over a period of time and winning the lottery twice, taking lump sums both times. The person who's taking the payments may still be getting money in payments longer than the lump sum winner, but it's off of an old winning spread out. The two-time winner got new income off the second lottery winning that the spread out payment person didn't earn.

And don't all teachers know this when they start teaching? Why complain about it? Just like the rest of us, budget your money.

I agree that I have never heard of a teacher taking a week long vacation during the school year. The OP was lucky her district was so accommodating. That would be like someone who works retail (like me) consistently asking for time off in November or December. You know your job and it quirks, you need to work around them.

 

[fla4fun]

Let's forget for a moment that the OP is a teacher.

The thing that struck me about her situation is that the time off, all of the time off, was approved. They didn't care that she was taking the time off. They just weren't willing to pay for it.

I can understand why this would be frustrating to anyone, regardless of profession.

The point she was making (at least if I'm reading the post correctly) was that she had paid time available to use, and they were denying her the use of it to cover the time off. They weren't going to stop her taking the time off.

So the end scenario would be that she requested a week, and was allowed to take a week. But they were withholding pay for doing so when she had paid time available to use. That doesn't seem right.

It doesn't seem right because in the end, if she had taken them up on the docked pay because that was the "lesser loss" then she would have been taking more time off later to use up the remaining paid days that she had. So she would have ended up missing more work time in the process.

If it was such a big deal for her to be off a week, a more correct response from "management" would have been that she could only be off the two or three paid days they were willing to approve, and would not be allowed to take any unpaid or pay docked days. I've worked places where that has happened to people, but I've never worked anywhere that a person was told to take time unpaid or with pay docked when they had paid time off available for use. In my experience, it's far more common for it to go the other way - that someone wants to take a day or two unpaid because they are saving their PTO for a big trip, and they are forced to use the PTO or not take the day or two off.

I'm sorry, OP, that you had such a difficult time. As far as future trips, Spring Break is not always a bad time to go - the weather is generally very good (not too hot or too wet) and since schools don't all take break at the same time, the crowds can be manageable. Maybe not as small as you are used to, but definitely manageable. My birthday falls during Spring Break season, and I usually spend a day or two (or three) at WDW to celebrate - and I haven't had any crowd problems I couldn't deal with. June is a lot hotter, and more humid, but the crowds are manageable then too.

 

[Cyrano]

Moving to community.

Disboards guidelines still apply

 

[jennylyn_b]

I'm glad it worked out for you this. June and July are really not that bad. I was a teacher before I had my DD and became a SAHM. We always went for 2 wks in July and its was lovely....hot but lovely! My school never would have allowed me to take vacation during the school year. We had 10 sick days to use for illness or drs appts. That's it. No leeway. At least you were able to do it this year and not lose the money. Enjoy!


Posted from DISboards.com App for Android

 

[Magpie]

I'd much rather work a regular 40 every week, get a paid 2-4 weeks off that I take at my choosing, and know that I don't have to take my work home with me so I can complete basic functions for being successful at my job without being paid for it.

My husband is a high level civil servant with just about one of the best jobs you can get, incl. generous vacation and salary. But he does not work a "regular 40 every week". He took this Saturday off, and today he'll be paying for it by having to spend several hours working from home. When we were on vacation last month, he had to spend an hour every day just dealing with communications from the office. There were several days in which he had to pull out his laptop and simply work for most of the day. He joked to me that on his next vacation he's "leaving the Blackberry behind!" But we both know he's not allowed to do that. I simply accept that sometimes when we're in line at Disney, he's going to step to the side and start texting furiously. He's never completely off the job.

And I don't know anyone - from retail employees to lawyers - who gets "2-4 weeks off that I take at my choosing"! Unless you're boss of your own company, you need to have your time off approved. It's not a rubber-stamp. You don't have a right to take that time whenever you like.

Let's forget for a moment that the OP is a teacher.

The thing that struck me about her situation is that the time off, all of the time off, was approved. They didn't care that she was taking the time off. They just weren't willing to pay for it.

I can understand why this would be frustrating to anyone, regardless of profession.

I can understand the OP's frustration, too. And I agree that the principal was a poor communicator and a wee bit passive-aggressive in her approach. On the other hand, I can easily imagine the principal's frustration as well. The principal has to juggle teachers, parents, students and staffing. Having someone waltz up and say, "BTW, I'm taking a week and a half off. Just sign here!" has got to be infuriating.

I doubt the OP communicated any kind of gratitude for the principal giving her that time off the previous year, since she saw the vacation time as her right, and not as something nice the principal did for her with regards to scheduling. So there's a very good chance the principal was feeling taken for granted, especially with the OP pre-booking everything without permission and telling her about it (versus asking if it was possible). "You let me do this once, so now you have to let me do it forever! It's my right!"

My suggestion to the OP would be to thank the principal properly for scheduling the time off this year, enjoy her trip, and make alternate plans next year, spreading her days out rather than taking them all in one chunk.

 

[DawnM]

The district I worked in for 16 years didn't allow us to take personal days like this. We got 10 sick days. We were told we could take a few "mental health" days as needed, but we had to produce a doctor's note if we were out 5 days in a row or more.

BUT, I worked most of those years in a year round school and loved having off-season times off to travel.

 

[Simba's Girl]

So you think that a boss should IGNORE an employee's continued attempts at discussion from May to late August? Should wait until nearly the last moment to mention that this vacation wasn't going to be approved? Should do something so completely opposite what has been done before?

Oh, and then should go back on what she just said was SO important, for a promise for the *following* year?

I really disagree.

First of all, we don't know the principal's side of the story, nor do we know the district's policy on using sick days as vacation days. The OP did state that she is not allowed to request the time off until the beginning of the school year. She was hedging bets that it would be approved based upon what happened last year. Taking a gamble so to speak. I understand from looking at the principal's perspective why she would reject the PTO request. Could the principal have communicated better? Probably, most of us can, but I am totally on her side as to why she would do that. There are plenty of other weeks during vacation that she could go away for a week.

Being a principal is not an easy job. Neither is being a teacher. However, to be a teacher is a choice and one makes the choice to live within the rules of the employer, just like everyone else who has a job. I understand that teachers don't technically have the whole summer vacation off and that most of them do continuing education for a few weeks during it, but they also have 2-3 weeks off during the year as well. Given that they have a pretty sweet deal. Most teachers I know are very dedicated to their jobs. If students are not supposed to take time off other than the district's vacation days, why should teachers? It sets a very bad example and to do it so early in the year when everyone is being evaluated and settling in is disruptive.

Again, bummer this happened, but totally get why it did.