Cancelled Reservation

[rachel_a18]

Have you found out anything yet?

Nope - no word yet from the member. Granted, I emailed her back last night... it clearly takes her days to get back to me now. My communication with her was ALWAYS prompt and efficient before I sent that payment... it was always a matter of hours before I would hear back from her.

Will keep you guys posted! Thanks for the encouragement!

 

[Dean]

I would agree with cancel and get out of this if you can, however, that may not be your option at this point. In part it depends on the specific wording of your contract but really more on the back of the person you're renting from which hasn't seemed too steady so far. Also, don't be surprised if paypal finds against you given their rules and the situation. I hope it works out.

 

[Nikisha421]

this is definitely selffish act...

 

[Scrappy_Tink]

this is definitely selffish act...

Could you clarify please? I sincerely hope you aren't indicating that the OP is selfish for protecting her and her DH's hard-earned money...

 

[ldo]

As much as she may have legitimate issues/health/death in family, etc., there is too much uncertainty with this transaction--it's not your neighbor or friend--it's a total stranger--you called and have given her ample time to make it right. You have filed paypal dispute--your evidence is to print out the online reservation that says "Canceled." Even if you had an airtight contract with no cancels for any reason, when you saw the "cancel" online, that is a repudiation of the contract from her---so her side canceled on you!
Make a back up reservation right now at a hotel (lots of them for great prices) that you can cancel at 48 hours, etc., while you sort things out--that way, you still can salvage your trip. Sometimes, WDW offers free dining, etc. in December, so there still might a be decent deal that comes up later--or, AFTER you get your $$ back, you can try to rent points from someone else that others on this BB have dealt with. WDW will always be there, good luck with school. Elaine

 

[dianeschlicht]

As much as she may have legitimate issues/health/death in family, etc., there is too much uncertainty with this transaction--it's not your neighbor or friend--it's a total stranger--you called and have given her ample time to make it right. You have filed paypal dispute--your evidence is to print out the online reservation that says "Canceled." Even if you had an airtight contract with no cancels for any reason, when you saw the "cancel" online, that is a repudiation of the contract from her---so her side canceled on you!
Make a back up reservation right now at a hotel (lots of them for great prices) that you can cancel at 48 hours, etc., while you sort things out--that way, you still can salvage your trip. Sometimes, WDW offers free dining, etc. in December, so there still might a be decent deal that comes up later--or, AFTER you get your $$ back, you can try to rent points from someone else that others on this BB have dealt with. WDW will always be there, good luck with school. Elaine

I agree, and I think you said you had paid something like in the $600 range, so in the long scheme of things, it's not like paying for the whole trip and losing it.

I seriously doubt you are going to have any luck with this person you have rented from. Too many huge red flags, and it's been far too long to wait for them to comply.

Here's hoping either the renter comes through with the money or reservation, or you get satisfaction from PayPal and can get a nice reservation elsewhere. I'm sure at this point you are gun shy about rentals, but I don't think you should be. There is always David's site, and there have never been any complaints about renting through him.

 

[JimMIA]

OK Jim, I'll play. Could you tell me what would be an evidence of a scam for you? Just for future reference.....

Actually I explained why I did not think this was a scam in my first post on this thread (#18):

The steps you went through - extensive email exchange, personal telephone contact, written contract - do not sound like steps a ripoff artist would go through. Nor is using Paypal. A ripoff artist would pressure you to pay quickly in a manner that is difficult to trace, and if you insisted on going through the good procedure you used, they'd just move on to another victim.

To amplify further, there is a huge difference between a scam and a bad business deal -- or a good business deal gone bad. In order for me to think there was a scam here, I'd have to see some scrap of criminal intent -- something like a pattern of similar behavior, an attempt to conceal the owner's true identity or other relevant information, multiple victims, etc. None of that has happened. I have to say, if this situation is a scam, it is the worst-conceived scam I've ever seen!

Because I gotta say, when someone has paid for a reservation that is no longer there and has difficulty getting that information from the rentor, then I gotta believe something is going on. A legit rentor would bend over backwards to fix a "mix up" or "mistake". At least be in contact with the renter to tell them they couldn't make the call, couldn't get the reservation, couldn't fix the mess they made.

Sure, I think we all agree the owner's response here has been poor. As a matter of fact, if this happened to me I think I'd be much more angry than OP is.

OTOH...I think we all should at least consider that if the owner is in the middle of some serious family crisis, fixing OP's reservation might not be their #1 priority right now. Especially if the owner is inexperienced with DVC and/or DVC rentals and thinks all they have to do is send DVC an email and tell them to reinstate the ressie because they made a mistake.

 

[disneynutz]

The people who are DISers sometimes forget that the rest of the world doesn't live Disney they way that we do. In fact many DVC members don't have any idea what's going on with the DVC and they never even log on to the DVC website.

We even met a couple last month who have been owners since OKW opened and they didn't know what banking and borrowing was.

Because of the current economy, members who have no idea what to do are now renting reservations.

Bill

 

[bytheblood]

Rachel, I have been thinking about you and praying for your situation. I really hope that something comed through for you very soon. Your attitude about this has been wonderful, but I imagine you have been sitting on pins and needles.

It is my heartfelt prayer that you would be shown favor and all of this would come to closure very soon.

 

[Daddio]

May I be so bold as to ask the OP why you are not communicating by telephone? Regardless of the lessors current life's problems, they have an obligation to respond in real time to your distress.

David

 

[Scrappy_Tink]

Actually I explained why I did not think this was a scam in my first post on this thread (#18).

CMBAR's question wasn't why you didn't think it was a scam, the question was what you'd consider evidence.

In order for me to think there was a scam here, I'd have to see some scrap of criminal intent -- something like a pattern of similar behavior, an attempt to conceal the owner's true identity or other relevant information, multiple victims, etc. None of that has happened.

An assumption on your part...and you know what happens when we assume?

I still don’t see where CMBAR’s question has been answered as to what you’d consider evidence. Also, as you know, there isn’t always evidence or criminal intent when a crime is committed. If a clerk takes $20 from her cash register with the intention to pay it back the next day, she is still a thief, even if there was no criminal intent (just “borrowing” it until payday). If a woman gets raped and doesn’t report it until 30 days later, after all evidence may have been destroyed, it doesn’t mean she wasn’t raped. There are too many scenarios

CMBAR, in a typical investigation, the following may occur (depending on the investigating agency, their “thresholds”, etc)

* Official statement taken from victim
* Copies of Records of transactions taken from the victim (emails, credit card statements, confirmations, etc)
* Official statement from the accused
* Offer of a polygraph to the accused
* subpoenas for records of electronical transactions (EBAY and DVC won’t just “cough them up”) of the accused, and authorizations from the victim for the same
* Interview of DVC personnel regarding rules and procedures for this type of transaction.

All of the above would be reviewed for its evidentiary value and could possibly be considered “evidence”, and a determination would be made if the accused committed a crime.

Okay, I’m sure I’ve left something out, or misspelled some words, but my pizza is getting cold. I’m sure I’ll be critiqued later…..

Oh, also, before I go…not everybody is a seasoned scam artist or criminal (Such as the bank robber who wrote his hold-up note on a deposit slip with his name and address on it!) and some people do the wrong thing out of desperation….but that doesn’t make it any less a crime. Just because it may be considered a “badly-conceived” scam, doesn’t mean it’s not possible. As my DH likes to say “If criminals weren’t stupid, why do they get caught?”

Rachel, I really hope things work out in your favor. Also, many larger corporations (such as DVC) have their own fraud departments and may open their own investigation. I would encourage you to call Member Services and ask…and if person answering doesn’t know, then ask for their supervisor.

I wish you luck on your upcoming exams, I know it’s hard to concentrate on studies when something like this is going on.

 

[rachel_a18]

May I be so bold as to ask the OP why you are not communicating by telephone? Regardless of the lessors current life's problems, they have an obligation to respond in real time to your distress.

David

I left one message, and my DH left another message on the contact # we had for the member. The reason we got for no response was the same reason we got for no responses to the emails... the family situation that took her off grid for weeks.

 

[rachel_a18]

Quick update: I did get a response from the member stating:

"I understand and it's no problem. I will issue a full refund to you, as per the agreement."

Hopefully now its just a matter of time before the money gets transferred back, and I can find another renter or just book direct with Disney! She has not communicated with Paypal, from what I can see on my end... but if that money comes through, we won't need Paypal to get involved.

And thank you guys for the well-wishes with school! Economics makes my head spin, but I'm using my hard work as an excuse to justify the Disney vacation

 

[Scrappy_Tink]

YAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYY!!!!!!

Nothing would make me happier in this situation than to be proved wrong!

Now hit the books!!

 

[Dean]

Quick update: I did get a response from the member stating:

"I understand and it's no problem. I will issue a full refund to you, as per the agreement."

Hopefully now its just a matter of time before the money gets transferred back, and I can find another renter or just book direct with Disney! She has not communicated with Paypal, from what I can see on my end... but if that money comes through, we won't need Paypal to get involved.

And thank you guys for the well-wishes with school! Economics makes my head spin, but I'm using my hard work as an excuse to justify the Disney vacation

Let us know when/if you get the refund. I hope it comes through but I am still skeptical.

 

[Sandisw]

Quick update: I did get a response from the member stating:

"I understand and it's no problem. I will issue a full refund to you, as per the agreement."

Hopefully now its just a matter of time before the money gets transferred back, and I can find another renter or just book direct with Disney! She has not communicated with Paypal, from what I can see on my end... but if that money comes through, we won't need Paypal to get involved.

And thank you guys for the well-wishes with school! Economics makes my head spin, but I'm using my hard work as an excuse to justify the Disney vacation

I am glad to know that it sounds like it is working out for you. At this point, I think you would have an easier time getting a room booked (like you had) through Disney then through a member.

Dec is very busy and there may or may not be availability. I called a few weeks ago to book just three nights at AKV Dec 19th - Dec 22nd. I could only get two of them, either the 19th and 20th at Jambo or the 20th and 22nd at Kidani. This was a studio, any view.

Of course, if you reserve through Disney, you can still think about finding another DVC member to check and go that route and cancel Disney out once you have what you want.

Good luck!

 

[n2mm]

OP, I hope you get your refund and salvage your trip. Keep us posted.

 

[JimMIA]

I still don’t see where CMBAR’s question has been answered as to what you’d consider evidence.

Actually, I think if you go back and read my response, you'll see that I quoted classic indicators of criminal intent in fraud cases (course of conduct, concealment, deceipt, multiple victims, etc.). There are many others, but I didn't want to get into a tedious discussion of fraud investigation.

And, not for nothing, remember that OP has not made any allegation of a scam. Well-meaning DISers (NOT OP) are the ones who have been throwing that word around loosely.

My objection to those leaps of logic is that in a case like this we have to assume that the other party to the transaction (the owner) may be reading the DIS commentary. In that case, unsubstantiated accusations by anyone can be unhelpful, no matter how much the poster intends to help. That's why I tend to be cautious until there is some actual indication that the situation is more than a screw-up.

FWIW, I also said Dani's case ("Sad Story") was not fraud at the outset. Obviously, I later changed my mind when we got actual evidence of fraud.

Also, as you know, there isn’t always evidence or criminal intent when a crime is committed. If a clerk takes $20 from her cash register with the intention to pay it back the next day, she is still a thief, even if there was no criminal intent (just “borrowing” it until payday).

Right. Because the nature of fraud revolves around concealing both the transactions and the intent, there's a wide range. Sometimes the evidence is very subtle and difficult to obtain as in the Enron and President of Mexico/Citibank cases. Other times it's braindead, in your face as in "Book this number or I'll throw you out the window" (WorldCom).

If a woman gets raped and doesn’t report it until 30 days later, after all evidence may have been destroyed, it doesn’t mean she wasn’t raped.

You might want to rethink this example of intent. I'm sure you didn't mean to say there is such a thing as unintentional rape. The fact that a crime is unreported has nothing to do with the intent of the criminal. Rape is like armed robbery - the intent is quite obvious.

The IMPORTANT thing here, however, is that OP gets either her reservation or her money back. That looks hopeful at this point.

 

[TisBit]

I hope you get your refund and can get a new vacation booked somehow. Many will use this as examples of why not to rent or such. While it is something to keep in mind, it is a rare case. Hopefully it all works out for you.

Jim, thanks for trying to keep the sanity, as you have said, a fraud is where a person goes into the transaction with the sole purpose of deceiving or defrauding the other party. This situaiton seems to be much more of a breach of contract then a fraud and would end up in the civil not criminal systems (barring no further evidence of intent on the other persons part).

 

[cseca]

That's great OP!
Now my suggestion is to get ressie from CRO and keep your eyes peeled for someone who might be renting a confirmed ressie for your dates. You never know, there might just be someone who has to rent it. But have a room secured either way, better than nothing...