Can they do this? Legal question

very interesting... back in the spring I went to the state softball championship game,

nothing was posted there....

I showed my press pass at the main gate and they barely looked at it, they handed me an orange pass that I needed to show, to gain access to any of the press platforms surrounding the playing field...

obviously they don't follow there own poilicy since I never followed the process in advance...LOL



I'd think their policy is loosely based on those such as the nfl, they own all rights, but to the best of my knowledge wouldn't prosecute anyone for selling a few shots here and there
It appears that this policy was inserted for this school year.

No this is different than what NFL, MLB, NHL, etc. does. There must have been a national HS athletic association conference this summer that talked about this issue, because other state associations have inserted the same policies for this year. A good example is Arkansas. Here was the reaction in the PJ community when that hit: Link In that link I expressed the same thoughts as you that it wasn't any different than the what MLB does, but upon closer examination it is.

Professional sporting body assert their rights to control the commercial exploitation of their product, even restricting resale of images by newspapers as part of their credential agreements, but they've rarely asserted actual "ownership" of every image taken. Several years ago MLB tried to do a "rights grab" to their "hard card" holders, but relented when major organizations like the AP balked at signing and threatened to pull coverage. The LPGA tried to do the same thing (Link) with the same results (Link). At the state level, in Louisiana the press balked when the state association tried to pull this (Link)
 
ahhhhhhh section C 3 H,

says I may sell pictures to any participating school or student, or the student's family...

thank goodness I'm not going to jail...LOL
I think you need to look a little closer. It reads (emphasis mine):
Upon request of a PIAA member school or student, Media may sell copies of photographs that are published to the requesting school and/or student (or the student's family).
In another words, if some parents see their kids in the sports section of the newspaper, you are allowed to sell them prints of the photo. That word "published" isn't in there by chance. You aren't allowed to sell them "unpublished" photos. The photos have to be used in some editorial sense, be it a newspaper, magazine, web-based sporting news page, etc. Just talking photos and selling them to parents, friends, etc. wouldn't be allowed per the rules.

Where this is headed is that the PIAA, without a doubt, wants to sell the exclusive rights (like their counterparts did in Arkansas) to peddle photos to parents of state tournament games to an "official photography" firm and be able to prevent others from doing so. If you look at the link above about the Louisiana press "uprising" what they were trying to stop were things like what newspapers commonly do now and, in addition to a photo or two from a game being used in a news story about the game, they will also post 25 "out-take" photos in a separate gallery that are for sale if you happen to see your kid in one. Papers more an more view this sort of thing as a way to generate additional revenue. Sporting organizations more and more want newspapers to decide if they are in the media or event photography business.
 
I think you need to look a little closer. It reads (emphasis mine): In another words, if some parents see their kids in the sports section of the newspaper, you are allowed to sell them prints of the photo. That word "published" isn't in there by chance. You aren't allowed to sell them "unpublished" photos. The photos have to be used in some editorial sense, be it a newspaper, magazine, web-based sporting news page, etc. Just talking photos and selling them to parents, friends, etc. wouldn't be allowed per the rules.

.

depends on whether or not they clearly define published,

some definitions of published include, posting them on a website..
 
I think you need to look a little closer. It reads (emphasis mine): In another words, if some parents see their kids in the sports section of the newspaper, you are allowed to sell them prints of the photo. That word "published" isn't in there by chance. You aren't allowed to sell them "unpublished" photos. The photos have to be used in some editorial sense, be it a newspaper, magazine, web-based sporting news page, etc. Just talking photos and selling them to parents, friends, etc. wouldn't be allowed per the rules.

Where this is headed is that the PIAA, without a doubt, wants to sell the exclusive rights (like their counterparts did in Arkansas) to peddle photos to parents of state tournament games to an "official photography" firm and be able to prevent others from doing so. .

the PIAA is in so much trouble with our legislature already, they are discussing disbanding them, I'll discuss this with the Senators involved:thumbsup2
 

depends on whether or not they clearly define published,

some definitions of published include, posting them on a website..
But since, in the eyes of the PIAA they "own" your photos, they would get to decide about what's "published" and what isn't. Trying to stretch the definition of editorial publishing to include posting them on a photo sales web site is probably taking it a bit too far. If you've read the Louisiana and Arkansas threads I posted above, you'll have a pretty good idea of the power struggle and attempted muscle flexing that's at work here.

the PIAA is in so much trouble with our legislature already, they are discussing disbanding them, I'll discuss this with the Senators involved
Good luck... You can bet a lot of newspapers in Pennsylvania will be hopping mad as this gets around (it looks like the policy was updated in late September).
 
But since, in the eyes of the PIAA they "own" your photos, they would get to decide about what's "published" and what isn't. Trying to stretch the definition of editorial publishing to include posting them on a photo sales web site is probably taking it a bit too far. If you've read the Louisiana and Arkansas threads I posted above, you'll have a pretty good idea of the power struggle and attempted muscle flexing that's at work here.

Good luck... You can bet a lot of newspapers in Pennsylvania will be hopping mad as this gets around (it looks like the policy was updated in late September).


I haven't shot any school stuff since my kids graduated, but it seems like a good cause to fight for, Luckily the Senator that handles all education/school stuff is my buddy, so meeting with him will be easy.

the other good thing is it only applies to state playoffs, our HS rarely makes it that far..LOL so even if I want to shoot any games , regular season stuff is still open..
 
Speaking of that matter and your state, guess what...? Starting this year if you take a photo at one of your state's HS tournaments, per the PIAA, they own the copyrights, not you! The people in the stands, the press, etc... they now lay claim to ownership of every image and grant newspapers the "right" to use "their" images of the event.



Link, Page 77

And now we go full circle(back to original topic).

So If the PIAA owns the rights to those images, the athletes must agree to those terms if they want to compete. And if the PIAA contracts a photographer to shoot...

I was talking about this to another photographer on the sideline of todays JV football game, and he mentioned something to that effect about the Little League world series. Even if you have a press pass, by Little League allowing you access to shoot their games you give them the rights to use your shots for advertising(or other).

IMO if we look at this closely it is not such a terrible policy, I mean these high school athletes are amateurs and minors. I feel the PIAA and Little League controlling where and how(as copyright holders) the images are used and sold can protect our kids from the exact stuff that was mentioned as concerns in this thread. We are looking at this as photographers, but lets try to look at this as parents. Wouldnt you want someone monitoring how your kid/athletes images are used?
 
And now we go full circle(back to original topic).

So If the PIAA owns the rights to those images, the athletes must agree to those terms if they want to compete. And if the PIAA contracts a photographer to shoot...

I was talking about this to another photographer on the sideline of todays JV football game, and he mentioned something to that effect about the Little League world series. Even if you have a press pass, by Little League allowing you access to shoot their games you give them the rights to use your shots for advertising(or other).

IMO if we look at this closely it is not such a terrible policy, I mean these high school athletes are amateurs and minors. I feel the PIAA and Little League controlling where and how(as copyright holders) the images are used and sold can protect our kids from the exact stuff that was mentioned as concerns in this thread. We are looking at this as photographers, but lets try to look at this as parents. Wouldnt you want someone monitoring how your kid/athletes images are used?
Personally, I don't think this is a good trend at all. Copyright ownership is literally the lifeblood of photo journalism. Without it, your ability to earn a living or extra cash is in jeopardy. Over the last ten years or so, copyright ownership has been under a constant assault that has had some very real negative effects in the PJ world. It's one of the reasons that more and more, being a PJ is akin to taking a vow of poverty.

The first big shot fired in this war was made by the Associated Press (AP). News services often hire freelancers to "string" for them at sporting events and other scheduled news events when extra help is needed. It used to be that if you were an AP stringer and they used one of your photos, they paid you a per image fee, they got the rights to use the image for news purposes, but the stringer retained ownership of the copyright and was free to sell the image as a reprint or for other non-competing uses. That all changed several years ago when the AP rolled out a new stringer contract that bumped up and per image fee a bit, but in return it added language that transfered ownership of the image to AP forever, and ever, amen. The Stringer had the choice of walking away from the work they got from the AP, or signing their rights away. Most chose the later.

From that point forward, the rush for "rights grabs" was on as other news venues took notice and started looking at things like secondary sales (See this list of news organizations selling reprints). Well, it's harder and less profitable to sell reprints of photos you don't own, so away they went!

It wasn't long before the idea spread beyond news organizations and into the subjects of the photos too. They have to spend a lot of nuts to get good photos of their events for advertising and other promotional use. So they realized that if they could get the photographers to sign credential agreements with "rights grabs" inserted, their photo bills would drop to zero. Recently, even some entertainers have gotten into the act by trying to insert grabs into concert credential forms. Not surprisingly, the photographers and agencies that like actually being paid for use of their work take a lot of umbrage when such clauses are often times quietly slipped into the piece of paper you sign when you go to pick up your event credential.

As for the motive of the PIAA, I can assure you it isn't about protecting the kids from misuse of their images. Just like everything else in the "rights grab" game, it begins and ends with $$$. If you want to sell photos from their events, that's fine, but you gotta pay a licensing fee first to sell "their" photos. On top of that, the PIAA get to use any of "their" photos for free, even if you took them.

As for protecting the kids, the PIAA and any school for that matter, can ask any photographer to leave the grounds for any reason they wish. If they spot a guy at a basketball game only taking photos of the cheerleaders' rear ends (It happens) ... they can bounce him. Likewise, if they don't like what a photographer or agency is doing with the photos they take, they can be barred from future events. There are other ways to deal with this other than a blanket "rights grab".

Fortunately there still are agencies out there that do things the "right way". For example, I'm represented by Icon Sports Media. I get to keep my rights, and they share any revenue from sales with me. Before you sign any forms or submit any pictures anywhere, read the text. There's a very good chance there's a rights grab in there! A common place to see them now are with so-called "Citizen Reporter" programs... the ones were if you get a good news photo (or video) on your cell phone camera your local newspaper or TV station (or even CNN) wants you to send it do them. Guess what, they get a good photo (or video), they don't have to pay a nickel for it (because they know you'll just be thrilled to death to see your photo in the newspaper or video on TV!), and when you submitted to them they made you check a box whereby you agreed that the newspaper/TV station can use the photo/video, sell it, license it to others, and do what they want with it (and might even now "own" the work) forever!
 
I agree wit Geoff_M. I don't see this as a positive thing in any way, as a photographer or a parent,

I'd rather have a trustworthy photographer holding the copyright, than a money grabbing organization like the PIAA, they have been very controversial over the past 5 years or so, because every move they make is about money, not about the student athletes best interest...


as a side thought to this issue. that's why I never enter photo contests, most of them have a clause hidden in the rules stating that if you win, you give up the copyright to the image...

The PA Renn FAire has a photography contest, buried in the rules is that clause...sure, you can win a free pass to the faire for next year, sounds nice on the surface, but in reality, they give you a 28 dollar pass, for a photo they want to use for advertising the following year, quite a deal for them..
 














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