Can they do this? Legal question

[MICKEY88]

I've never tried to shoot in a gym, so I'm not speaking from experience. I'm just going on what the speaker said. To be fair to him, he talked about spending time before the games to set up a few powerful studio strobes to shoot against the ceiling and walls. Assuming that he knew what he was doing, he should have been able to get much better lighting than you'd get from an on-camera flash.

One thing that really stuck with me from his presentation was how bitterly he felt about hobbyist shooters undercutting his business. It was an odd attitude presenting to a photography club. Still, I could understand his concern because their hobby was threatening his career. I guess it's sort of like fearing that your job will be offshored, but even worse - (relatively) rich people will voluntarily do your job for free.

The only indoor athletic shooting I've had much experience with is shooting gymnastics a couple of times. I haven't really been happy with the results. I don't like the look of on-camera flash but the motion and light levels have made flashless shooting difficult. Next time I'll bring my thing for holding the flash off of the camera.



Most of my sports shooting has been pee-wee league soccer. There is no distinction between field access and the stands. The stands consist of the lawn chairs of other parents.

My son spent his last few games anxious to be rotated out so that he could operate the video camera and do color commentary. I had the camera set up on a tripod with a fluid head set up for horizontal panning. He'd pan with the action and zoom in and out as the action move towards or away from us. We never published or distributed the videos, so I'm pretty sure that he's not a criminal.

that amazes me that they'd allow that much lighting, I would think that would be more annoying to the athletes and fans, perhaps because I live in a small town ,and all my sporting events are at smaller schools, I've never heard of using that much light..with the exception of team photos which are definitely set up differently..

although he should definitely be able to get better lighting, I would think it wouldn't look natural to anyone who attends a lot of games in that particular gym

 

[MICKEY88]

Or a 300mm f2.8

for daytime outdoor sports the 2.8 isn't even neccessary, but the press credentials still get you a better view point,

our HIgh school softball team made it to the state final game last spring, for the first time ever in school history, so I took of work and took my stepson, since he was a senior and good friends with most of the girls, after walking around the field looking for a good spot to shoot from I decided to use my press credentials. to see how far they'd get me since I hadn't registered in advance, I was given a nice orange tag to wear that gave me access to all press platforms around the field, that made it so much easier than shooting around or over people since there was a rather large crowd..

 

[MICKEY88]

One tries not use an on camera flash because it tends to bother the players when shooting up close(like under the basket). It is very common to setup a few strobes farther away(like in the gym corners up in the stands). They also give a better overall photo, without the harsh shadows a single on camera flash might give.

I've only ever seen on camera flash used in my area, by the local newspaper guy yearbook photographers..

that's all I used for years at volleyball games sitting by the net so I could shoot either team, I asked the girls from our school if it bothered them and they said they don't even notice it,
maybe because i'm in smaller gyms it's easier to bounce flash..

 

[Anewman]

I've only ever seen on camera flash used in my area, by the local newspaper guy yearbook photographers..

that's all I used for years at volleyball games sitting by the net so I could shoot either team, I asked the girls from our school if it bothered them and they said they don't even notice it,
maybe because i'm in smaller gyms it's easier to bounce flash..

My daughter plays varsity volleyball, todays ref stopped play twice asking spectators to stop using flash. I am sure he would not have allowed strobes bounced off the walls either. Most officials allow it from anywhere, and some allow it from up in the stands but not up close(sidelines). And I have also seen coaches ask for the flash photography to stop. I did not really shoot today but I usually set up right next to the main officials stand.

 

[Anewman]

that amazes me that they'd allow that much lighting, I would think that would be more annoying to the athletes and fans, perhaps because I live in a small town ,and all my sporting events are at smaller schools, I've never heard of using that much light..with the exception of team photos which are definitely set up differently..

although he should definitely be able to get better lighting, I would think it wouldn't look natural to anyone who attends a lot of games in that particular gym

It is not really that distracting as the strobes are positioned behind the spectators backs and bounced off the walls/ceilings, it does not really hit anyone directly in the eye as apposed to how an on camera flash would if positioned on the baseline. And depending on the gym the light will be coming from the same general direction as some of the gyms lights.

 

[MICKEY88]

It is not really that distracting as the strobes are positioned behind the spectators backs and bounced off the walls/ceilings, it does not really hit anyone directly in the eye as apposed to how an on camera flash would if positioned on the baseline. And depending on the gym the light will be coming from the same general direction as some of the gyms lights.

true but you'd still get a sudden increase in light..

 

[MICKEY88]

My daughter plays varsity volleyball, todays ref stopped play twice asking spectators to stop using flash. I am sure he would not have allowed strobes bounced off the walls either. Most officials allow it from anywhere, and some allow it from up in the stands but not up close(sidelines). And I have also seen coaches ask for the flash photography to stop. I did not really shoot today but I usually set up right next to the main officials stand.

interesting I wonder if he had a complaint from players or coaches, or if it just distracted him, I've never had that happen, I used to sit in the first or second row right at the net..

although we had one ref, who would stop play to tell students they were cheering too loudly, needless to say he was not well liked by the fans, the students were doing nothing wrong, just showing their support for their friends..

all the other refs we normally had, would only prohibit cheering during the serve..

 

[Geoff_M]

interesting I wonder if he had a complaint from players or coaches, or if it just distracted him, I've never had that happen, I used to sit in the first or second row right at the net..

although we had one ref, who would stop play to tell students they were cheering too loudly, needless to say he was not well liked by the fans, the students were doing nothing wrong, just showing their support for their friends..

all the other refs we normally had, would only prohibit cheering during the serve..

The "battle" to use strobes in gyms is fairly common, though thankfully I've never personally encountered it. I use two off-camera speedlights on light stands with PocketWizard remotes when I shoot basketball. Of the people that report having problems, almost all of the complaints are from coaches or officials. Ironically, when actually polled, the players often don't recall ever seeing a flash during the game! They're too busy concentrating on the game to notice the "pops"... even with on-camera flashes. But coaches assume they'll distract, and if their team is struggling in the game, then it must be those darned flashes!

Many state athletic associations, in responses to appeals from media photographers, are now starting to write rules that actually make it harder for officials, coaches, or ADs to prohibit strobes. About the only two sports remaining were flashes are almost universally banned are volleyball (since the players spend so much time looking upwards) and swimming (that uses strobes as well as a horn at the start of each event).

 

[bostran1]

True, within the statute of frauds (as I think Bostran posted a few pages ago). More difficult issue with an oral agreement is proof of what, if anything, was said, meant. Much safer to get it in writing!

Yep, the only contracts governed by the statute of frauds (ie the only contracts that need to be in writing to be enforcible) are contracts for the sale of land (and leases for more than a year), contracts in contemplation of marriage (ie prenuptial agreements), contracts for the sale of goods over $500, contracts for the lease of goods over $1000, contracts that by their terms cannot be performed in one year, contracts to answer for the debt of another. I think that covers it and it will vary by state. However, anything can be contracted orally. The only thing the statute of frauds does is make certain contracts unenforcible if they aren't in written.

 

[MICKEY88]

Many state athletic associations, in responses to appeals from media photographers, are now starting to write rules that actually make it harder for officials, coaches, or ADs to prohibit strobes. About the only two sports remaining were flashes are almost universally banned are volleyball (since the players spend so much time looking upwards) and swimming (that uses strobes as well as a horn at the start of each event).

interesting, I guess the ban didn't hit central PA, because that's where I shot all my volleyball stuff, without a single complaint,

never thought about it before but maybe sitting low helped, since as you stated the players are almost always looking up..

 

[jann1033]

True, within the statute of frauds (as I think Bostran posted a few pages ago). More difficult issue with an oral agreement is proof of what, if anything, was said, meant. Much safer to get it in writing!

even in writing if someone doesn't feel like paying they can get around it but making it to expensive for you to collect via fees etc..did work for a company who does this routinely,course only found that out after the fact...my attorney said..."a signed contract is only as good as the two parties who sign it" so anyone who goes by verbal contract is really asking for problems imo

but just so i get this right...say i take a fantastic rolleyes1 ) shot of some stranger windsurfing and sports illustrated wants to give me $$$ i'm ok. but if some friend of mine wants a copy i can't sell it to him?????.. or should i wade out to get the release?

 

[MICKEY88]

but just so i get this right...say i take a fantastic rolleyes1 ) shot of some stranger windsurfing and sports illustrated wants to give me $$$ i'm ok. but if some friend of mine wants a copy i can't sell it to him?????.. or should i wade out to get the release?

Just yell SHARK !!! and wait for the surfer to come to you..

 

[Geoff_M]

interesting, I guess the ban didn't hit central PA, because that's where I shot all my volleyball stuff, without a single complaint,

never thought about it before but maybe sitting low helped, since as you stated the players are almost always looking up..

Yep, for example here's Ohio's policy regarding high school volleyball: http://www.ohsaa.org/news/media/photopolicy.htm

The outright bans include gymnastics, diving, and volleyball.

Other states such as Illinois, just passed policies that allow it at volleyball games, but a number of permissions (coaches, site managers, etc.) must be obtained in advance. See http://www.ihsa.org/activity/vbg/2007-08/t-and-cs.pdf Section IX-K.

You can also go to Sportsshooter's forum area and search on the words "volleyball flash" and see all the people that have had problems trying or know that they cannot use flash period.

 

[Anewman]

Yep, for example here's Ohio's policy regarding high school volleyball: http://www.ohsaa.org/news/media/photopolicy.htm

The outright bans include gymnastics, diving, and volleyball.

So the ban even covers camera mounted strobes, interesting.

 

[MICKEY88]

Yep, for example here's Ohio's policy regarding high school volleyball: http://www.ohsaa.org/news/media/photopolicy.htm

The outright bans include gymnastics, diving, and volleyball.

Other states such as Illinois, just passed policies that allow it at volleyball games, but a number of permissions (coaches, site managers, etc.) must be obtained in advance. See http://www.ihsa.org/activity/vbg/2007-08/t-and-cs.pdf Section IX-K.

You can also go to Sportsshooter's forum area and search on the words "volleyball flash" and see all the people that have had problems trying or know that they cannot use flash period.

wow looks like PPA needs better lobbyists to prevent such rules...

 

[JediTim]

Jumping into this late but this is probably part of a bigger problem than most people realize. I post my pictures on Flickr and anyone has access to these pictures and can either upload and print them to their computer or even have Flickr print them.

I was reading an article Monday that pointed to a picture taken from Flickr of a girl. The picture was now in Australia as part of an ad by Virgin Mobil. Someone in Australia saw that at the bottom of the picture it referenced where in Flickr the site was found. The original person in the picture then saw the reference and no way gave permission. To top it off the picture was insulting to the person.

This is something people will really need to be aware of...as more pictures are posted on the internet there is a greater chance the picture will be used by someone else.


Tim

 

[Geoff_M]

wow looks like PPA needs better lobbyists to prevent such rules...

Speaking of that matter and your state, guess what...? Starting this year if you take a photo at one of your state's HS tournaments, per the PIAA, they own the copyrights, not you! The people in the stands, the press, etc... they now lay claim to ownership of every image and grant newspapers the "right" to use "their" images of the event.

POLICIES REGARDING CABLECASTING/TELECASTING, FILMING, PHOTOGRAPHING, VIDEOTAPING, AND/OR WEBCASTING (VIDEO STREAMING)
A. Photography, Film, Video, and Audio. – PIAA is the owner of the rights to and the copyright holder of all audio and visual depictions of PIAA Inter-District Championship Contests, including all still photographs taken of such Contests, all film, analog and digital videos, audiotape, and Internet depictions of such Contests and the live audio, visual, and webcasting broadcasts of such Contests. Still photography, filming, videotaping, audio recording, and webcasting are prohibited at PIAA Inter-District Championship Contests, except as expressly and specifically authorized by this policy. All video, broadcast, title, and broadcast rights for PIAA Inter-District Championship Contests are the exclusive property of PIAA. PIAA Inter-District Championship Contests cannot be reproduced, rebroadcast, or used for any other purposes without the express written consent of PIAA.
B. General Policies Applicable to All Classes of Photographers, Videographers, etc.
1. Still photographs, films, videotapes, and audiotapes may not be used to review decisions of Contest officials.
2. Still photographs, films, videotapes, or audiotapes, in full or in part, may not be used for any commercial purpose unless authorized in writing by PIAA.
3. Any still photography, filming, videotaping, audiotaping, telecasting, webcasting (video streaming), and cablecasting shall not interfere with the visibility and comfort of spectators, shall not present a safety hazard to spectators, and shall not disrupt, disturb, or interfere with the competition or with any competitor.
4. Any person conducting photography, filming, videotaping, audiotaping, telecasting, webcasting (video streaming), and cablecasting shall not stand on any unsafe or potentially hazardous physical object
or facility.
5. Any person conducting photography, filming, videotaping, audiotaping, telecasting, webcasting
(video streaming), and cablecasting must remain in the areas that have been designated for spectators, sports photographers, schools, cable/television stations, or Internet video broadcasters, as appropriate.
C. Specific Classes of Photographer, Videographers, etc.
1. Member Schools. Representatives of PIAA member schools are authorized, at their own expense, to take still photographs and to film, videotape, and/or audiotape PIAA Inter-District Championship Contests.
2. Spectators. Individual spectators are authorized, at their own expense, and from the seating area or other designated space, to personally take still photographs, film, videotape, and/or audiotape PIAA Inter-District Championship Contests for strictly personal use.
3. Media
a. Members of the media are authorized, without paying a fee, to take still photographs and take short film, video, and/or audio clips of PIAA Inter-District Championship Contests for print and electronic news coverage.
b. With advanced permission from PIAA, members of the media may take still photographs and film, videotape, and/or audiotape PIAA Inter-District Championship Contests.
c. The filming or taping of the majority of a PIAA Inter-District Championship Contests is prohibited absent PIAA approval.

Link, Page 77

 

[Geoff_M]

Jumping into this late but this is probably part of a bigger problem than most people realize. I post my pictures on Flickr and anyone has access to these pictures and can either upload and print them to their computer or even have Flickr print them.

I was reading an article Monday that pointed to a picture taken from Flickr of a girl. The picture was now in Australia as part of an ad by Virgin Mobil. Someone in Australia saw that at the bottom of the picture it referenced where in Flickr the site was found. The original person in the picture then saw the reference and no way gave permission. To top it off the picture was insulting to the person.

This is something people will really need to be aware of...as more pictures are posted on the internet there is a greater chance the picture will be used by someone else.


Tim

As long as the photos you post to Flickr can't be considered an "invasion of privacy" when you took them, there's nothing to worry about from a legal ramification standpoint by merely posting them. The legal problems in the case you mention rest with Verizon and their ad agency who commercially used the image without permission. It doesn't matter if the use was "insulting" or not. Companies often pay photographers and models thousands of dollars for such photo usage. I'd sue too.

But you are correct that you need to be aware that you are putting them out in the public view. For example, last season I posted photos of my son's hockey team to webshots. Even though the last ones I've posted were from March, I still get about 100 hits on the photos each week from who knows who. I was careful not to mention player's names or even the team's home town in the galleries.

 

[MICKEY88]

Speaking of that matter and your state, guess what...? Starting this year if you take a photo at one of your state's HS tournaments, per the PIAA, they own the copyrights, not you! The people in the stands, the press, etc... they now lay claim to ownership of every image and grant newspapers the "right" to use "their" images of the event.



Link, Page 77

very interesting... back in the spring I went to the state softball championship game,

nothing was posted there....

I showed my press pass at the main gate and they barely looked at it, they handed me an orange pass that I needed to show, to gain access to any of the press platforms surrounding the playing field...

obviously they don't follow there own poilicy since I never followed the process in advance...LOL



I'd think their policy is loosely based on those such as the nfl, they own all rights, but to the best of my knowledge wouldn't prosecute anyone for selling a few shots here and there

 

[MICKEY88]

Speaking of that matter and your state, guess what...? Starting this year if you take a photo at one of your state's HS tournaments, per the PIAA, they own the copyrights, not you! The people in the stands, the press, etc... they now lay claim to ownership of every image and grant newspapers the "right" to use "their" images of the event.



Link, Page 77

ahhhhhhh section C 3 H,

says I may sell pictures to any participating school or student, or the student's family...

thank goodness I'm not going to jail...LOL