Can An Atheist Be President.

Can an atheist be President?

  • It wouldn't matter to me. I would vote for the "man".

  • I would prefer to vote for an atheist.

  • I would only vote for someone who believed in God.

  • I would only vote someone who is in my religious denomination.


Results are only viewable after voting.
Originally posted by AirForceRocks
Children are not only permitted to pray silently before a meal, but they are permitted to pray out loud before a meal as well.

Well, since you wrote this, I looked up some things and found out that I was looking at stories dated before Feb. 7 2003, when Rod Paige issued new student free speech guidelines. These provide that schools--if they want to keept heir federal aid--must permit students their right to free expression--including religious expression including voluntary prayer and Bible reading in school. "Public schools should not be hostile to the religious rights of their students and their families. Students may read their Bibles or other scriptures, say grace before meals, and pray or study religious materials with fellow students during recess, lunch hour, or other noninstructional time to the same extent that they may engage in nonreligious activities"

Regarding the President being chastized for being a Christian. . .I guess that's my interpretation of many of the comments on these boards and in the news that are not pleased that he "consults" God or that once, on this board, some derided him for stating, "God speaks through me" or something similar. That, to me, is not alarming at all, but Bush's comments were used against him derisively and literally. I have also found that some take issue with his 'faith-based initiatives".

Maybe sometime this week, I'll find some links about what I'm talking about and start a thread. I'm sorry I hijacked this one about this. I have read a lot of stories about the hypocrisy with public funding, inicidents that are still going on in schools (although now I see that those policies would be considered to be incorrect), and lawsuits that have been filed regarding some of these issues, etc. I might have to go look them up--which is something I'm not really eager to do now.

Thanks, though.
 
We no longer have the Lords prayer before class starts at school here and have not for a very long time. Personally I would ratehr vote for an atheist than a religious man as then I know they will not be trying to play up the religion card while out campaining and such.
 
Well, since you wrote this, I looked up some things and found out that I was looking at stories dated before Feb. 7 2003, when Rod Paige issued new student free speech guidelines. These provide that schools--if they want to keept heir federal aid--must permit students their right to free expression--including religious expression including voluntary prayer and Bible reading in school. "Public schools should not be hostile to the religious rights of their students and their families. Students may read their Bibles or other scriptures, say grace before meals, and pray or study religious materials with fellow students during recess, lunch hour, or other noninstructional time to the same extent that they may engage in nonreligious activities"

Yes, but even prior to this guideline, schools could not legally keep students from praying out loud before meals.
 
Originally posted by AirForceRocks
Yes, but even prior to this guideline, schools could not legally keep students from praying out loud before meals.

I didn't know this for sure, but I definitely believe you. However, many schools TRIED to. And, no, I don't have any links now, but you've heard of some of the cases I'm referring to, right?
 

I'd be a lot more worried about someone like Nancy Reagan who talked to Astrologers. In my opinion (as a non-religious person) when someone talks to God they are really just talking to themself anyhow. They are talking to the inner voice that guides you to do the right thing.
 
Originally posted by Kendra17
I didn't know this for sure, but I definitely believe you. However, many schools TRIED to. And, no, I don't have any links now, but you've heard of some of the cases I'm referring to, right?

Absolutely, and many succeeded because the parents didn't fight it. But while everyone seems to remember the establishment clause, many seem to forget the free exercise clause. Prohibiting a child to pray on his or her own when it doesn't involve disruption of school activities would be a violation of that child's Constitutional right to practice his or her religion.
 
Originally posted by kpgclark
I'd be a lot more worried about someone like Nancy Reagan who talked to Astrologers. In my opinion (as a non-religious person) when someone talks to God they are really just talking to themself anyhow. They are talking to the inner voice that guides you to do the right thing.

Well, that's what I meant about derision. And, no, I'm not accusing you of deriding Bush. I meant that it's clear that's what Bush meant. . .he was asking for guidance and was trying to "hear" the correct answer. And, he felt that he made the correct choice.

Those who took issue with his statement were doing it to paint him as a looney, when it's clear he wasn't.
 
/
Originally posted by Kendra17
Well, that's what I meant about derision. And, no, I'm not accusing you of deriding Bush. I meant that it's clear that's what Bush meant. . .he was asking for guidance and was trying to "hear" the correct answer. And, he felt that he made the correct choice.

Those who took issue with his statement were doing it to paint him as a looney, when it's clear he wasn't.

Your point? So, George Bush thinks God speaks to him. Osama Bin Laden thinks Allah speaks to him and Meir Kahane (The Jewish Defense League) also felt God spoke to him.

Btw, how is it derision when a non-religious person expresses an opinion regarding prayer? Ever stop to think maybe you really are talking to yourself when you pray?

I believe one's religious affiliations truly are a private matter and no indication of character.
 
Originally posted by ThAnswr
Your point? So, George Bush thinks God speaks to him. Osama Bin Laden thinks Allah speaks to him and Meir Kahane (The Jewish Defense League) also felt God spoke to him.

Btw, how is it derision when a non-religious person expresses an opinion regarding prayer? Ever stop to think maybe you really are talking to yourself when you pray?

I believe one's religious affiliations truly are a private matter and no indication of character.

What are you saying exactly? Of course, I can believe the poster I was referring to (on another thread) was being derisive. It was clear. . .it was a comment made to Characterize Bush negatively. If I'm wrong, he or she certainly didn't clarify that when I had attempted to question him about it.

I don't care that the poster was nonreligious. I care that he characterized Bush as being unbalanced for BEING religious. Is this clearer?

If you truly believe that "one's religious affiliations truly are a private matter and no indication of character", then you'd agree that the poster I was referring to (I don't remember the name; it was in a previous thread), was finding yet another way to make fun of our President.

Instead of attacking me. . .why not take some time and read the full exchange?

BTW, bin Laden and his millions of followers are nuts. Kahane was extreme, but it was a response to millions of nuts committing acts of terrorism.
 
Originally posted by WDWHound
Your comparing the deplorable act of judging someone based on their skin color to the act of voting for someone becuase you beleive they share your values and perception of reality based on a common faith. I personally don't agree with voting only for Christians (as I stated earlier), but these 2 cases are completely different.


It seems that sharing values and perception of reality do not
necessarily require common faith. Kendra17 for instance lines
up quite succinctly with strict Christian interpretation in her beliefs
and core values, don't you think? She says she is not Christian
and I believe her, that is not the point here. It's that people
would judge simply on religion or skin color and many do.
I do not believe any man or woman who is not Christian would
have a snowballs chance in.... to get elected POTUS in the
climate we currently have. Look at the hoopla when Gore chose
Lieberman. Many discussions about Lieberman not being able
to work on Saturday and other nonsense. I say it won't happen
in my lifetime. I'd be amazed to see a Christian woman elected
much less someone of a religious orientation other than Christian.
 
Originally posted by Kendra17
What are you saying exactly?

I believe you figured it out all on your own. It wasn't that difficult unless you wanted to muddy up the waters.


Originally posted by Kendra17
Of course, I can believe the poster I was referring to (on another thread) was being derisive.

I don't know what the hell was said on the other thread. If there was another thread you were pontificating on that was important to this thread, give us a link.

Originally posted by Kendra17
It was clear. . .it was a comment made to Characterize Bush negatively. If I'm wrong, he or she certainly didn't clarify that when I had attempted to question him about it

I don't care that the poster was nonreligious. I care that he characterized Bush as being unbalanced for BEING religious. Is this clearer?

Provide a link so we can see for ourselves. And, frankly, that's an opinion.

Here's my opinion.........George Bush has provided more than enough for me to vote against him and I don't have to dig too deep to look for reasons.


Originally posted by Kendra17
If you truly believe that "one's religious affiliations truly are a private matter and no indication of character", then you'd agree that the poster I was referring to (I don't remember the name; it was in a previous thread), was finding yet another way to make fun of our President.

No, I don't agree to any such thing.

My comment about "religious affiliation" is self-explanatory and your attempt to muddy up the waters is self-serving drivel.

Originally posted by Kendra17
Instead of attacking me. . .why not take some time and read the full exchange?

If you consider asking questions to be "attacking you", hey whatever blows your skirt up.

Originally posted by Kendra17
BTW, bin Laden and his millions of followers are nuts. Kahane was extreme, but it was a response to millions of nuts committing acts of terrorism.

I could play the game of asking you if you think Kahane's extremism was justified, but frankly, I just ain't in the mood.

I'm sorry if it bothers you when someone points out that history is littered with people who felt God spoke to them and then committed the most horrific acts because of that special relationship.

Then again, who am I kidding, I'm not sorry at all.
 
Originally posted by ThAnswr
I believe you figured it out all on your own. It wasn't that difficult unless you wanted to muddy up the waters.
I don't know what the hell was said on the other thread. If there was another thread you were pontificating on that was important to this thread, give us a link. Provide a link so we can see for ourselves. And, frankly, that's an opinion.

No, I'm not going to do that. I was talking mostly to kpgclark and the others that were on here before. I certainly am not going to spend the time now to find a quotation for you. Also, if that WAS NOT what the poster meant, the poster would have said so when I challenged him. Instead, he stuck to his guns and stated that (and I'm paraphrasing) said people that profess to have God speak through them weren't mentally balanced.

You are correct that "that is an opinion". Obviously it was the poster's opinion. That isn't too profound an assessment on your part. However, my opinion is that he was trying to depict Bush as unbalanced--and I used that as an example on this thread. You don't like it? Fine with me! :)

Here's my opinion.........George Bush has provided more than enough for me to vote against him and I don't have to dig too deep to look for reasons.

frankly, do I care? Not in the least. Thankfully, I'd wager that more than half of the voters out there will put Bush in office for another term. Your opinion matters not in the least to me. I'm answering you out of courtesy.

My comment about "religious affiliation" is self-explanatory and your attempt to muddy up the waters is self-serving drivel.

If that's what you truly believe, more power to you. However, you said this:
Btw, how is it derision when a non-religious person expresses an opinion regarding prayer? Ever stop to think maybe you really are talking to yourself when you pray?

I believe one's religious affiliations truly are a private matter and no indication of character.

I answered this:
I don't care that the poster was nonreligious. I care that he characterized Bush as being unbalanced for BEING religious. Is this clearer?

If you truly believe that "one's religious affiliations truly are a private matter and no indication of character", then you'd agree that the poster I was referring to (I don't remember the name; it was in a previous thread), was finding yet another way to make fun of our President.

If you perceive that to be "muddying up the waters", that's fine with me too. As I've said before, your opinion isn't too important to me.

Truthfully, it was an attempt to clarify a previous statement, since I thought (maybe wrongly) that you had misunderstood. I took the time to clarify something so you'd understand and you took the time to accuse me of "muddying up the waters". Alright.

If you consider asking questions to be "attacking you", hey whatever blows your skirt up.

Okay. Poor choice of words. Since you began your post with "your point?" I interpreted your post as being antagonistic. If you weren't being antagonistic. I should have just used the word "challenge", since that's really what I meant. :)

I could play the game of asking you if you think Kahane's extremism was justified, but frankly, I just ain't in the mood.

Okay. Just so you know, I used to think Kahane's extremism was not justified. Now, however, I tend to think that it probably was. But, you probably already knew my stance on that! :)

I'm sorry if it bothers you when someone points out that history is littered with people who felt God spoke to them and then committed the most horrific acts because of that special relationship.

Yes, you are absolutely correct. This is a good point that people bring up on here often--I'm sure you've seen it. This is key. The difference is, if one is a moral or cultural relativist, one may see a Conservative Christian as the same as an Islamic Fundamentalist. Someone who has actually has a moral compass would be able to assess the situation and state that the Islamic Fundamentalist's behavior is worse. On a grand scale. Sure, both believe in God, both believe that committing certain acts will get them into heaven. They may both be wrong but it is definitely likely at least one of them is wrong.

I won't ask you what your opinion is on the matter, because most people following these threads actually know my opinion on the matter. You want to characterize both bin laden and Bush the same? Okay. I and many others disagree. I believe one of those religions are based on Goodness, and one is based on Murder. You don't believe that and want to tell me Islam is a religion of peace? Okay. That's fine. I disagree, the survivors in Chechnya disagree, the survivors in Sudan disagree, the survivors in Indonesia disagree, survivors in Israel disagree, survivors all over the world who have suffered under Islamic Fundamentalism would disagree. So, you see, as you said, "whatever blows your skirt up". . If you're actually a male, don't be too insulted that I used that phrase.

Then again, who am I kidding, I'm not sorry at all.
:)

I didn't think you were.
 
Originally posted by ThAnswr
Your point? So, George Bush thinks God speaks to him. Osama Bin Laden thinks Allah speaks to him and Meir Kahane (The Jewish Defense League) also felt God spoke to him.

Btw, how is it derision when a non-religious person expresses an opinion regarding prayer? Ever stop to think maybe you really are talking to yourself when you pray?

I believe one's religious affiliations truly are a private matter and no indication of character.

Well said!!!
 
Originally posted by shortbun
It seems that sharing values and perception of reality do not
necessarily require common faith. Kendra17 for instance lines
up quite succinctly with strict Christian interpretation in her beliefs
and core values, don't you think? She says she is not Christian
and I believe her, that is not the point here. It's that people
would judge simply on religion or skin color and many do.
I do not believe any man or woman who is not Christian would
have a snowballs chance in.... to get elected POTUS in the
climate we currently have. Look at the hoopla when Gore chose
Lieberman. Many discussions about Lieberman not being able
to work on Saturday and other nonsense. I say it won't happen
in my lifetime. I'd be amazed to see a Christian woman elected
much less someone of a religious orientation other than Christian.

I do agree with everything you've said here. I don't think an athiest would be able to get elected anytime soon. Maybe, but I'd doubt it. I personally would have no trouble voting for an athiest who was also a Conservative. Had Lieberman been running, I think he may have had a good chance--Jewish or not. The point was, he was conservative democrat, he has moral conviction, etc., he sees the War on Terror as something we need to wage.

I can't believe being black would be an issue anymore either. I could see Colin Powell, Condi Rice, Thomas Sowell, in office.. I'd vote for Rice or Sowell definitely. Probably Powell, too. Could I see Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson? No--and, thankfully, I might add.

I think it's the person, not the religion. Although, here in America, many of us WANT a person that shares a similar background based on their value system. I do not think most Muslims share that same value system, since certain tenets of their faith that are still being practiced today are in direct contrast to how we live. A black person? Certainly. A Jew? Absolutely.
 
Ove rhere it is possible:
Our Chancellor G. Schröder refused in both his inaugural ceremonies in 1998 and 2002 to use any reference to god when speaking his oath. He was the first Chancellor to do so, but the religious afffiliation of politicians is not exactly a big issue over here anyway- except on the local level in some backwood-villages perhaps ;)
 
Originally posted by Viking
Ove rhere it is possible:
Our Chancellor G. Schröder refused in both his inaugural ceremonies in 1998 and 2002 to use any reference to god when speaking his oath. He was the first Chancellor to do so, but the religious afffiliation of politicians is not exactly a big issue over here anyway- except on the local level in some backwood-villages perhaps ;)

Viking, I usually disagree with you, but I do want to add something. I've been saying I'm not a Christian, because I am not and because I want it clear that my beliefs weren't formed by a Christian theology.

However, I do see your point. I think the Conservative message could be shared more easily if religion wasn't talked about quite as much. I know that puts some people off. However, it's really the value system that makes up the Conservative movement. Many Christians SHARE that value system, but it's not exclusive to Christianity.
 














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