Calling all Creationists!

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Actually according to the website I was directed to, whales are more closely related to hummingbirds, but even that was contradicted on the final chart. ;)

I am by NO MEANS an expert on whale evolution ;) I think I did say that earlier -- right?

It was an example meant to illustrate the general process. Perhaps I could have been clearer?
 
Do you even know how a fossil forms? Not too long ago there were millions of buffalo in the great plains. Now they are pretty much all gone. So how many fossils of buffalos do we have? I'm not familiar with any, but perhaps there might be one or two. Why not.
Very simply because a fossil is only formed when a creature is wrapped suddenly in a substance that will prevent the decaying process (usually mud). Do you realize that there are hundreds of millions of fossils in the earth. Now two things can explain that.
1) there were a lot of clumsy critters that kept falling into mud to be fossilized.
or
2) a catastrophe happened that caused this huge number of fossils.

the Bible states that a few thousand years ago, God sent a flood to destroy the world and most of the creatures on it. Guess what, the Genesis flood easily accounts for all of the fossils.

Did you know that near the top of Mount Everest they have found thousands of seashells, and fossilized sea creatures? How can you explain that? The Biblical account of the flood easily explains it. Evolution has no explanation for it.

I'm sure that you would like to use fossils of cavemen. Unfortunately every single "man" - Neanderthal, cro-magnon, Lucy... has either been proven to be false (and in some cases deliberate fraud), or is so sketchy as to be a joke (finding one part of the creature in one location, and another 500 yards away). I don't think you would read it, but there's a book called "Bones of contention" that gives a very clear explanation for each and every one of these "missing links" (of course it's only creationist propaganda though).

Few things help prove the creationist theory as much as do fossils.

Fossils certainly do challenge conceived notions of evolution. Here's an example: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/09/science/08cnd-fossil.html Yet, fossils do not negate evolution, nor have they been found to be frauds.

Mount Everest was under water at one time, like a lot of places on our planet. The Himalayas rose from the sea floor because of plate tectonics, not evolution. India smashed into the rest of Asia, basically.

The flood in Genesis may have some basis in history. Noah's story is quite similar to the Babylonian tale of Gilgamesh, as a matter of fact. But these myths may simply be from places where rivers' floods could affect many people's lives, or there may have been a storm.

But they are still fruit flies! They didn't turn into leopards!

They are still bacteria-they didn't turn into bats!

But we did observe that they evolved.
 
There is only Creationism, read your BIBLE !!!

The Bible was not faxed down from Heaven.

It was written by men, many men, hundreds of years after the death of Jesus Christ, then translated from many different languages.

The Bible is STILL being interpreted and translated, that is why there are so many versions.

I am a Christian, a Deacon in my church, a full time staff member of said church, however, I DO NOT believe in Creationism. (Oh! and I am a Sunday School teach too... run now :lmao: )
 
Mikelly, I disagree with you about the attitudes of scientists. I work at a university with quite a few scientists and they are not at all unwilling to admit when they are wrong. Their working lives are devoted to discovering how the world works, and when their hypotheses turn out to be wrong, they are not upset, they see it as an opportunity to learn something new and make new discoveries. Scientists and most of the non-religious people I know don't "believe" in evolution the way you believe in God. It's not a matter of faith. It's as I think I said in my first post - evolution as I understand it makes the most sense in explaining how we got the world we have today. I'll continue to accept/agree with/"believe" that until or unless a better explanation is developed.

I did use dogs as an example of how a species can change, but you've asked to explain the evolution of a number of other species. I'm not able to take the time to explain all of those, but I'm sure that there are scientists who have studied each of these, and could explain to you the entire evolutionary process. There are many volumes of information on just these topics in the university library.

If you think about it for a second, I think you'll realize that mutations are not rare at all. Consider the dogs again. Each of the differences between (say) an old English sheepdog and a chihuahua is the result of a mutation. So one has very long hair, the other has very short hair. One has bulging eyes, one has deep-set eyes. One has a distinctive colour pattern to the fur, the other has different skin colours. And so on, including internal mutations that we can't see that are required to support bodies of such different sizes. Multiply that by the number of different species and all the mutations involved in creating each of those, and you'll see how many are happening all the time! The people who bred these different species didn't create the mutations, they simply took advantage of them and sped up the process of change by deliberately breeding dogs that had the qualities they wanted. But the mutations - the things that made the dogs different from the wolves they started from - all happened naturally.

This should also answer your question about most mutations being harmful. Some are. Some are harmful in one environment and not in another. Sickle cell anemia is one example. If you get one chromosome for sickle cell anemia, you will be mildly ill but you will also be protected from malaria. So this is actually a positive mutation if you are living in an area where malaria is dangerous. It's not so positive if you live where malaria isn't a problem, and if you have a child with someone else who also carries the sickle cell gene, and that child inherits both genes and develops serious sickle cell anemia.

But as you can see from the various mutations in the dog breeds, many of them are not harmful at all. Many will be neutral (such as the ones that determine the colour of the dog's fur). And some, in a particular environment, will be helpful - will let the animal live longer and have more offspring (in the case of dog breeders, the ones that make the animal more suitable for the breeder's goals).

Teresa

Thanks Teresa!
 

A bacteria doesn't turn into a snake or rabbit overnight! Actual Here is a great image for you that might explain a bit about what the lineage is between different looking living things . Remember -- add time and stir!

tree.gif



Although I'm happy to TRY to answer some of your queries about evolution, it does seem like you are missing a fundamental grasp of what evolution actually is or how it works . Regardless of whether you end up believing it or not, it makes sense to do some research so you have a general idea of what scientist are talking about when they say evolution, right! That's why I'd suggest some of the wonderful resources available online. For example, wikipedia can be a good place to start for very general research. There is also a great site through the university of california berkely, written by real scientists, at http://evolution.berkeley.edu/.

Good luck and happy reading! Let me know if you want to talk more about it when we're all on the same page :)

Well, I think I have a general, layman's grasp on it. Based on this chart and other charts I've seen, doesn't the theory of evolution say that every living thing is decended from one ancestor? Regarding your diagram (very nice!), what's at the root of the tree?
 
Actually I do spend a lot of time researching, reading, searching out what the latest evolutionary theories are (it's something that I'm interested in, so I do spend time looking it up), and let me tell you. There is one thing that doesn't change. They change names, they change the amount of time involved, they change positions, but the one thing that hasn't changed is the simple fact "they don't know"
Evolutionists study the facts that we do know, and try to explain them with theories. Evolution is not true science. It cannot be observed, imitated or tested. Like I said, I don't really care if people want to believe in evolution or whatever other theory they have. It is only a theory. To claim anything else is ignoring the fact that nobody who proposes evolution really knows what happened. But to force feed this mis-information to kids, and tell them that it is the only real explanation is ridiculous.

Evolution has been observed and the theory has been tested. Here's one test: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v297/n5863/abs/297197a0.html
Not sure what you mean by "imitated".

Actually there are millions upon millions of fossils in the earth. There are fossils of pretty much every known creature. In fact the only thing that there aren't fossils of are the "missing links" that evolution needs so badly.

That's a gross overstatement. There remain gaps for fossil records for many species, not just humans.

Misconception: “Gaps in the fossil record disprove evolution.”

Response: The fact that some transitional fossils are not preserved does not disprove evolution. Evolutionary biologists do not expect that all transitional forms will be found and realize that many species leave no fossils at all. Lots of organisms don't fossilize well and the environmental conditions for forming good fossils are not that common. So, science actually predicts that for many evolutionary changes there will be gaps in the record.

Also, scientists have found many transitional fossils. For example, there are fossils of transitional organisms between modern birds and their theropod dinosaur ancestors, and between whales and their terrestrial mammal ancestors.
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/misconceps/IICgaps.shtml

Actually, by not allowing informed, intelligent debate, that's exactly what they are doing. Every idea is allowed except the one that says God created it all. Look at the outcry when a debate between the two sides is mentioned!

Science is supposed to allow for intelligent and informed debate. But God is really outside the purview of science. Science cannot prove that God doesn't exist and that God didn't create the universe. It's there so we can understand our surroundings.
 
But we did observe that they evolved.

Ok, but isn't the whole point of evolution theory that all living creatures on earth share one common ancestor? The trunk of the tree, the root of the tree? We all share common DNA, etc. etc. Then if the bacteria reproduce quickly and can show us an example of what maybe happened over millions of years, then shouldn't something a bit more...dramatic have happened?

The fact that they adapted but stayed bacteria says something, I think.
 
Ok, but isn't the whole point of evolution theory that all living creatures on earth share one common ancestor? The trunk of the tree, the root of the tree? We all share common DNA, etc. etc. Then if the bacteria reproduce quickly and can show us an example of what maybe happened over millions of years, then shouldn't something a bit more...dramatic have happened?

The fact that they adapted but stayed bacteria says something, I think.

Well, the point of evolutionary theory is not to prove one particular aspect of the theory. But one piece of evidence for universal common descent is found in genetics--we all have our genetic information encoded in DNA. Also, Teresa's dogs are a good example here. We humans have messed with dogs' genetics, which is why they all look so different, from the Chihuahua to the Newfoundland. But look at wolves, they all look very similar, right? We haven't messed around with their genetic codes.

Here's some more about it:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/
 
Well, the point of evolutionary theory is not to prove one particular aspect of the theory. But one piece of evidence for universal common descent is found in genetics--we all have our genetic information encoded in DNA. Also, Teresa's dogs are a good example here. We humans have messed with dogs' genetics, which is why they all look so different, from the Chihuahua to the Newfoundland. But look at wolves, they all look very similar, right? We haven't messed around with their genetic codes.

Here's some more about it:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/

Here is a quote from the article:

Therefore, the evidence for common descent discussed here is independent of specific gradualistic explanatory mechanisms. None of the dozens of predictions directly address how macroevolution has occurred, how fins were able to develop into limbs, how the leopard got its spots, or how the vertebrate eye evolved. None of the evidence recounted here assumes that natural selection is valid. None of the evidence assumes that natural selection is sufficient for generating adaptations or the differences between species and other taxa. Because of this evidentiary independence, the validity of the macroevolutionary conclusion does not depend on whether natural selection, or the inheritance of acquired characaters, or a force vitale, or something else is the true mechanism of adaptive evolutionary change. The scientific case for common descent stands, regardless.

To put this paragraph in a nutshell, "We can't explain how it happened, but we KNOW it happened." Am I reading it right?
 
Ok, but isn't the whole point of evolution theory that all living creatures on earth share one common ancestor? The trunk of the tree, the root of the tree? We all share common DNA, etc. etc. Then if the bacteria reproduce quickly and can show us an example of what maybe happened over millions of years, then shouldn't something a bit more...dramatic have happened?

The fact that they adapted but stayed bacteria says something, I think.

I'm not sure I totally understand your question, but I'll see if I can take a stab at it.

We all do share a common ancestor. I think our last common ancestor was from a couple of billion years ago or so, though, so it is no longer around today. It would have been bacteria-like and have DNA, although more than that we might never know (bacteria -- except when they live in mats or colonies -- don't leave fossils, so it's kind of hard to know.)

Although we don't know a lot about our last common ancestor, we can look at surviving organisms that are alive today and see how we are decended from them. They are also our ancestors. For example, we can look at an animal's DNA and see that it shares some of our DNA. Animals that are very "close" to us evolutionarily and that came from us not that long ago have DNA that looks really similar. For example, I think orangatangs have DNA that is 97 or 98 or something percent similar to ours (ETA: I am NOT an expert on orangotang DNA ;) ). Basically, we would have to look at a hundred proteins on DNA to tell whether we were looking at a primate or a human! It really is quite amazing. The "code" that tells our bodies how to make a fetus is almost the same as the code that tells a orangatan's body how to make an orangatang fetus (apparently, I don't know how to spell orangotang according to my spell checker ;) )

For the second part of your question, the answer is a bit more complicated. Organisms don't evolve a lot when they don't NEED to evolve. For example, you could take a colony of eels or worms or bacteria or whatever and put them in surroundings that are very good for them, where they always get enough to eat and they are comfortable and healthy. Even if we were able to look at them over a very long time period, they might not evolve much. You would get some random mutations and some very minor mutations, for example some bacteria might figure out how to get a tiny percentage point more nutrition from sugar, and that evolution would propagate. But really the bacteria or whatever would not change much. Now, if you put them in surroundings where it was hard for them to survive -- maybe they don't have enough food, it's too cold for them, they get diseases, whatever, then they will begin evolving very rapidly.

The reason is that that is what natural selection is -- the organisms that do better (have more offspring) propagate their DNA, and the ones that struggle don't get to propagate their DNA. Over time, you get a bunch of organisms that have the DNA that tends to help them survive. There is a lot of pressure when the environment is not good -- when the organisms are doing just fine -- they're in the right "niche", they are not going to change a lot. Historically, we think that a lot of new species and rapid evolution happened when a colony of organisms got into an environment where it was hard -- imagine some eels living in a stream that gets colder because of the ice age or some bacteria that move into a trench in the ocean or primates that start getting killed off by a new disease. These are all pressures that push groups of organisms to start changing faster than they would normally.

Now ... to venture a bit into what I think you're trying to ask -- why if everything is always evoloving and changing, do we still have "primitive" organisms? Why are bacteria still around? The reason is that organisms evolve when they need to., but when they don't need to, they tend to stay sort of the same. And they don't all evolve at the same pace. A group of organisms -- that colony of eels in that one stream -- might start evolving rapidly because their stream is cool. Their brother and sister eels in the lake which stays the same temperature tend to not evolve much. Over a long period of time, the eels in the stream are really different -- they're no longer brothers and sisters to the eels in the lake. They might even be a new species! But the eels in the lake -- they're already evolved for their niche. They like it there. They're going to stay that species of eel for a long time.

Again, add time and stir, and that is why we might see bacteria AND monkeys. Monkeys evolved from bacteria, but that doesn't mean bacteria go away. Everything is always evolving, but there is still a "niche" for bacteria --- most are happy in their environment. They're evolving, just like we are, just like everything is, but often times they're evolving to process sugar better or have thicker flagella (string like fillaments that help them move around) or have more hardy membranes or whatever it is that makes the bacteria happy :) . All this is evolution, too, and we say that bacteria are "evolved" and not really "primitive" because they are doing a great job of continually doing better in their ever-changing environments.

That's a stab at it.... hope that makes sense. Good question.
 
I'm really sorry..I'll try again. I can be a bit computer challenged at times!

How about this: http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/0_0_0/lines_06

This link should be the two skeletons of the baleen whale & hummingbird.

oh that's okay! I haven't read the whole article yet, but I can give you a piece of the puzzle. They are showing the relationship between whales and hummingbirds not because they are closest to each other evolutionarily, but because oftentimes people look at them and think they're FARTHEST away (since they're the largest and smallest animals).

So it is common for anti-evolutionists to say, oh how could such different organisms be related. That particular article is trying to just show -- yes, they look so different, but they are, contrary to what you might think. NOT that they're closest. It really is amazing to look at their skeletons and see the similarities even though we could look at them and say "no way"!
 
oh that's okay! I haven't read the whole article yet, but I can give you a piece of the puzzle. They are showing the relationship between whales and hummingbirds not because they are closest to each other evolutionarily, but because oftentimes people look at them and think they're FARTHEST away (since they're the largest and smallest animals).

So it is common for anti-evolutionists to say, oh how could such different organisms be related. That particular article is trying to just show -- yes, they look so different, but they are, contrary to what you might think. NOT that they're closest. It really is amazing to look at their skeletons and see the similarities even though we could look at them and say "no way"!

Thanks for the info! :)

Overall, I think this has been a respectful debate. I'm going to bow out, now-really tired! I thank those who hold the evolutionist position for making their case respectfully. I do have to say that the more I read, the more awed I became at a Creator that is so creative. I'm not convinced-I think evolutionists are taking all the evidence and coming to the wrong conclusion. I still say a debate in science class between the two views would be educational.

See you around the DIS! :thumbsup2 At least we can agree on that!
 
Thanks for the info! :)

Overall, I think this has been a respectful debate. I'm going to bow out, now-really tired! I thank those who hold the evolutionist position for making their case respectfully. I do have to say that the more I read, the more awed I became at a Creator that is so creative. I'm not convinced-I think evolutionists are taking all the evidence and coming to the wrong conclusion. I still say a debate in science class between the two views would be educational.

See you around the DIS! :thumbsup2 At least we can agree on that!

Thaks, mikelly! I think things started out a bit rocky in this thread, but in the end, it was really nice to chat with you. It's great when discussions like this stay respectful.

If there's one thing we agree about, it is our sense of awe. For you, it might be an awe of the creator, and for me, it is an awe of the intricate processes of the natural world.
 
I think creation and evolution are completely compatible concepts.

I agree; that's what we're taught in my Roman Catholic church. I didn't know how to answer the poll.

Thank you! I was starting to think I was the only one that thought that way. When I have tried to explain my thoughts to others I usually get some very strange stares.

I believe that the Bible is a story book. It was written at a time when the populace was uneducated and life was very simple. Science as we know it didn't exist. To explain the origins of man a plausible story had to be presented otherwise it would have just been put down. The stories themselves contain many interesting questions that have yet to be explained in any satisfactory way. For example, If Adam and Eve were the two original human creatures, where did the rest of us come from? Wouldn't there have had to be incestuous activity to procreate beyond those two?

The Bible is an interesting book to read and if it isn't taken too literally, it can be a pretty good history book as well. Taken word for word, however, it is a little shaky.
 
The scripture in Peter (2 Peter chapter 3) is actually talking about the Second coming of Christ. It's talking about the fact that no one knows when this will happen. A lot of people want to try and put a time for when it will occur, but nobody knows. It's also talking about God's patience, and this is where the verse comes in that says a day is as a thousand years. God is not bound to time like we are, whereas we get impatient, he doesn't. When Christ returns it will be unexpected.
I think a lot of the confusion comes in because it does talk about creation, but it is using creation to demonstrate God's power. That He who created all things is all powerful and that He has a special plan that is not like man's plan. Then it says that Christ will return, but nobody knows only God, and that for Him, time is unlike it is for us. The reference of a day = a thousand years is not referring to the creation.

IA with you about the NT passage. However, Psalm 90:4 says the same thing.

Psalm 90
4 For a thousand years in your sight
are like a day that has just gone by,
or like a watch in the night.




The Bible was not faxed down from Heaven.

It was written by men, many men, hundreds of years after the death of Jesus Christ, then translated from many different languages.

The Bible is STILL being interpreted and translated, that is why there are so many versions.

I am a Christian, a Deacon in my church, a full time staff member of said church, however, I DO NOT believe in Creationism. (Oh! and I am a Sunday School teach too... run now :lmao: )

You seem to be inferring that the Bible was not authored by God. Am I reading your post correctly? If so, how do you deal with these passages?

1 Corinthians 1
17For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

I Cor. 2
13This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.
 

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