Cafeteria Catholics?

[JunieJay]

Baptised Catholic but never attended church until I started dating my wife and then went through all the sacrements in 6 months so we could get married in the church. Attended off and on till about five years ago at which time we went to a Methodist church with friends. We now go to church every week and are very involved as I sing in the Choir and help with musicals and plays and my wife serves on the Trustee committee. We decided to switch because we fundamentally did not agree with many points of the Catholic doctrine.

As we were deciding to change I spoke with our priest and did a lot of research on the beliefs and customs of the church and came to the conclusion that much of it was driven by the leaders of the church, circumstance and tradition as opposed to actual biblical facts. So in the end I did not feel as bad leaving.

I wonder if your decision to leave was easier than it would have been for those of us who were reared in the Catholic Church? We did some church shopping a few years ago, mainly because I felt so torn between my love of the Church and my opposing viewpoint with much of the doctrine. But I never could really find one where I felt so at home and so at peace, so I figured the point was moot. And it was at that point I decided I would just be a proud cafeteria style Catholic. I figure had I converted and joined a church where I agreed with the doctrine but didn't get the spiritual connection, that would be like throwing the baby out with the bath water.

To me, when I went to those other churches, it felt so odd. Almost like I just decided to dump my parents and get new ones.....And I wonder, because it wasn't part of your upbringing save the 6 month period where you and your wife went to Church, was the transition easier? I'm betting it was, and this is why you went in with a more open heart. I'm betting cradle Catholics who convert probably have a much more difficult time of it, or like Jenny, choose a path that has many similarities.

 

[Jenn Lynn]

That's the reason. Catholics believe that we are receiving the Body and Blood of Christ in Communion and that the Mass is a sacrifice. Most other Christian faiths view Communion as a memorial and that the bread and wine remains bread and wine.

Missouri-Synod Lutherans believe you are receiving the body and blood of Christ. Other faiths are allowed to take Communion at all of the MSL churches I have been to/been a member of. They have a short list of questions either printed in the bulletin or somewhere available in the pew for you to look over. If you answer yes to these questions you can take communion. The answers, of course, are between you and God.

Wanted to add that I am enjoying this discussion of the Catholic faith. I was baptized Catholic and most of mine and DH's realtives are Catholic.

 

[momof2inPA]

Hope that answers your question

Yes, and it makes perfect sense. Thank-you.

 

[Fitswimmer]

Missouri-Synod Lutherans believe you are receiving the body and blood of Christ.

I did not know that. I didn't even know that there were branches of Lutherans. (sorry if I'm using bad terminology)

 

[brerrabbit]

I wonder if your decision to leave was easier than it would have been for those of us who were reared in the Catholic Church? We did some church shopping a few years ago, mainly because I felt so torn between my love of the Church and my opposing viewpoint with much of the doctrine. But I never could really find one where I felt so at home and so at peace, so I figured the point was moot. And it was at that point I decided I would just be a proud cafeteria style Catholic. I figure had I converted and joined a church where I agreed with the doctrine but didn't get the spiritual connection, that would be like throwing the baby out with the bath water.

To me, when I went to those other churches, it felt so odd. Almost like I just decided to dump my parents and get new ones.....And I wonder, because it wasn't part of your upbringing save the 6 month period where you and your wife went to Church, was the transition easier? I'm betting it was, and this is why you went in with a more open heart. I'm betting cradle Catholics who convert probably have a much more difficult time of it, or like Jenny, choose a path that has many similarities.

I attended for many years after our marrage as we have been married going on 25 years before we switched. Also my DW is a cradle Catholic and she did not have a problem with the change. Granted we had specific issues with our life and our Church. My DS confirmation class was told to meet at the church one Sunday afternoon at 2:00. We dropped him off and they told us they would be finished at around 5:00 and we could pick him up then. Well either DS forgot to tell us or maybe he wasn't told but the Sunday class consisted of the kids being taken to the busiest intersection in town to spend two hours protesting abortion to all the passing cars. Also my DMIL is a lifetime Catholic who has had a rough life(husband died when my DW was 5, from alcoholism, single mother breast cancer twice, and a 45 year old son still with no job and on drugs and alcohol) and she accepts all this as her lot in life and is almost a marter (sp) about it and talks about how God is punishing her but its okay because it was meant to be. She attended the Catholic church every Sunday for her entire life and never found joy in God only her own sorrow. There were just a lot of things pushing us and we felt the need to give our kids a different perspective about church.

 

[JunieJay]

I attended for many years after our marrage as we have been married going on 25 years before we switched. Also my DW is a cradle Catholic and she did not have a problem with the change. Granted we had specific issues with our life and our Church. My DS confirmation class was told to meet at the church one Sunday afternoon at 2:00. We dropped him off and they told us they would be finished at around 5:00 and we could pick him up then. Well either DS forgot to tell us or maybe he wasn't told but the Sunday class consisted of the kids being taken to the busiest intersection in town to spend two hours protesting abortion to all the passing cars. Also my DMIL is a lifetime Catholic who has had a rough life(husband died when my DW was 5, from alcoholism, single mother breast cancer twice, and a 45 year old son still with no job and on drugs and alcohol) and she accepts all this as her lot in life and is almost a marter (sp) about it and talks about how God is punishing her but its okay because it was meant to be. She attended the Catholic church every Sunday for her entire life and never found joy in God only her own sorrow. There were just a lot of things pushing us and we felt the need to give our kids a different perspective about church.

Yikes! I can see why you made the switch. I've never had any experience like that in my parish or the one I grew up in.

I'm sorry, I misunderstood your first post and thought you said you were only a practicing Catholic for a short time. I'm sorry your experience was so negative, but am so glad you found a better fit for you and your family.

 

[gobears!]

My father gave each one of us a bill for our Catholic school education at Christmas. Does that give an idea of how good a Catholic I am?

 

[mickeyfan2]

Missouri-Synod Lutherans believe you are receiving the body and blood of Christ. Other faiths are allowed to take Communion at all of the MSL churches I have been to/been a member of. They have a short list of questions either printed in the bulletin or somewhere available in the pew for you to look over. If you answer yes to these questions you can take communion. The answers, of course, are between you and God.

Wanted to add that I am enjoying this discussion of the Catholic faith. I was baptized Catholic and most of mine and DH's realtives are Catholic.

Anybody could go up and take communion since nobody asks you are you Catholic, but the Church prefers if you don't take communion.

From what I understand you would be allowed to take communion at a Catholic Church because you do believe it is the body and blood of Christ. Sodaseller am I right about this?

 

[brerrabbit]

Last bad thing promise.

The reason I was baptised Catholic but never attended as a kid was because of my Father. He was a cradle Catholic who was involved with Knights of Columbus, helped raised money for a new church in Houston, and was very active in the church overall. When his then wife of 23 years (before he married my mother) was dieing of Lukemia, he asked the priest at the hospital (St Joesephs in downtown Houston) to come and administer last rites. As the priest was talking to him he learned that my Father and his first wife were not married in the church (they were married during the depression in 1934). The priest then informed my Father that unless he confessed to living in sin with her for the past 23 years he would not give her last rites. My Father was furious and sent the man away. After that day he only set foot in the Catholic church three times until the day he died. One was my wedding day and the two other times were for the baptism of my children. In 2001 as he lay dieing and basically out of it totally as he did not recognise me or my Mother the only thing he knew and could do was to say the Hail Mary prayer over and over again. He had loved the Church for so long and so much that till the day he died he still held a resentment about it but still wanted in his heart to go back but just never could.

 

[mickeyfan2]

Last bad thing promise.

The reason I was baptised Catholic but never attended as a kid was because of my Father. He was a cradle Catholic who was involved with Knights of Columbus, helped raised money for a new church in Houston, and was very active in the church overall. When his then wife of 23 years (before he married my mother) was dieing of Lukemia, he asked the priest at the hospital (St Joesephs in downtown Houston) to come and administer last rites. As the priest was talking to him he learned that my Father and his first wife were not married in the church (they were married during the depression in 1934). The priest then informed my Father that unless he confessed to living in sin with her for the past 23 years he would not give her last rites. My Father was furious and sent the man away. After that day he only set foot in the Catholic church three times until the day he died. One was my wedding day and the two other times were for the baptism of my children. In 2001 as he lay dieing and basically out of it totally as he did not recognise me or my Mother the only thing he knew and could do was to say the Hail Mary prayer over and over again. He had loved the Church for so long and so much that till the day he died he still held a resentment about it but still wanted in his heart to go back but just never could.

So he did not attend your baptism? So why did he want you baptized?

The Church then and the Church now are very different. I know that some diocese and arch-diocese are different. I tended to grow up and now live (not the one I grew up in) in more forward thinking diocese and churches. I found the ethnic churches to be stricter. My DH grew up in an ethnic church across the river from me. Mine was not ethnic. I did not feel comfortable in his church and at first he found mine to be uncomfortable. Now he prefers the non-ethnic Catholic church.

 

[sodaseller]

Baptised Catholic but never attended church until I started dating my wife and then went through all the sacrements in 6 months so we could get married in the church. Attended off and on till about five years ago at which time we went to a Methodist church with friends. We now go to church every week and are very involved as I sing in the Choir and help with musicals and plays and my wife serves on the Trustee committee. We decided to switch because we fundamentally did not agree with many points of the Catholic doctrine.

As we were deciding to change I spoke with our priest and did a lot of research on the beliefs and customs of the church and came to the conclusion that much of it was driven by the leaders of the church, circumstance and tradition as opposed to actual biblical facts. So in the end I did not feel as bad leaving.

1. Contraception/ Homosexuality. Believe it or not in the Catholic way of thinking these two issues are related. While Romans says that men laying with men is a sin and an abomination the Catholic church also points out that the "spilling of the seed" is a sin. In other words sex leading to ejaculation that has no chance of bringing new life into the world is a sin. I don't remember the exact biblical reference but someone was told to lay with his brothers wife and while reluctant to do so did but did not finish the act and spilled the seed. For doing so he was punished by God. Therefore if we take this reasoning to its logical conclusion then any sexual act where the married participants are aware that conception will not occur is a sin. So that means older couples who because of natural conditions can't have kids, then they can't have sex. Using even the "rythem method" when the woman knows she is not fertile is a sin. ************ is a sin, any birth control, a sin. The list goes on. This is the root of the Catholic belief that contraception is a sin.

2. No Married Priests. In the beginning of the church priests were in fact allowed to be married. Study Catholic history and you will find many were married long ago. The primary reason the church decided against them getting married was self serving. Since in the early church many of the parishes buildings and land were titled to the local priest there were numerous incidents where upon the priests death local custom allowed that all the deceased's assets were given to the first born male son. This meant assets the Church (Rome) felt belonged to them were being lost to the heirs of the married priests. They chose to stop that by merely passing a new rule in the church that said priests can't get married. No biblical reason merely financial reasons. If that decision was so arbitrary then why can't they make another arbitrary decision to let women become priests?

3. You should never take communion unless you are truley repentent, clean of heart, and have confessed your sins to God, (through a priest of course). Every Sunday we attended mass almost everyone took communion however confession at our parish was for a 45 minute period on Saturday afternoon with usually only one priest hearing confession. Our Parish lists over 4,000 members. You do the math.

4. Catholic tradition is such that over the years since its inception the church preached to the masses that long ago were very illiterate and quite frankly printing had not been invented so each week at mass the priest read parts of the bible to the people and then told them what it meant. No bible study classes, no Sunday school just come on in sit right down and let me tell you what to think. Fast forward 14 or 15 millienium to the year 2000. Come right in sit right down and let me tell you what the bible says. Still no Sunday school (except CCE for the kids) no bible study. The church will tell you what to think.

After considering all these issues and visiting other churches we made the choice to change. I could have stayed and pressed for change in the church but it would have been a life time battle and I would have lost. I also understand that my parrish was not necessarily representative of all Catholic churches but similar to most in my area. So we chose to go elsewhere and it has honestly brought both myself and my family much closer to God than ever before.

You speak on Onanism, from Onan in the OT. You are correct that the prohibitions on homosexuality are the same with any sexual act that is not "open to the transmission of life." I would just clarify that the roots are more in Thomistic (ST. Thomas Aquinas) natural law, framed in terms of open to life and "complementarity", a nice way of referring to what Anya on Buffy used to call "interlocking parts" as she discovered her newly human sexuality

I generally concur with the remainder of your points as well, though I must "confess" a la rankin Roger that I often take Communion without a correct disposition, though neither my DW or I will if we're fighting too badly and feel as if the sacramental union is a little frayed at the moment.

As for #4, you are correct as a matter of history, but the Church has come a long way, and though there is no "Sunday School" per se, most religious education ministries require a fairly strong formation program before receiving the sacraments. Our parish uses "Whole Community Catechesis", details at http://www.stpatricktampa.org/church/rel_ed/catechesis_01.htm and following pages. That said, in PreVatican II days, there was even a phrase for it - "Ignorancia Beatissima" - blessed ignorance, meaning the laity were blessed in their ignorance so long as they followed blindly.

 

[Marie17]

Also regarding Communion- the Catholic Church only allows Catholics to take Communion. Other baptized Christians are excluded. That's something that kind of bothers me.[/QUOTE

Why should it bother you? If you go into a Catholic Church and go up to communion and you DID NOT believe you were actually receiving the Body and Blood of Christ - why take it? To most religions, communion is just a "symbol" of the last supper. THIS is NOT the case to those who believe in the Real Presence. I wouldn't say "amen" to something I did not believe in. It is out of respect for that religion to not participate in something you do not have the faith or belief in.

Personally, I wouldn't go into the LDS church and take communion just because I was there. I wouldn't accept communion in a Baptist church for the same reason.

I used to be a Eucharistic minister for a previous parish we were in and it was not on our checklist to ask someone their religious background before giving out communion.

 

[Marie17]

I wonder if your decision to leave was easier than it would have been for those of us who were reared in the Catholic Church? We did some church shopping a few years ago, mainly because I felt so torn between my love of the Church and my opposing viewpoint with much of the doctrine. But I never could really find one where I felt so at home and so at peace, so I figured the point was moot. And it was at that point I decided I would just be a proud cafeteria style Catholic. I figure had I converted and joined a church where I agreed with the doctrine but didn't get the spiritual connection, that would be like throwing the baby out with the bath water.

To me, when I went to those other churches, it felt so odd. Almost like I just decided to dump my parents and get new ones.....And I wonder, because it wasn't part of your upbringing save the 6 month period where you and your wife went to Church, was the transition easier? I'm betting it was, and this is why you went in with a more open heart. I'm betting cradle Catholics who convert probably have a much more difficult time of it, or like Jenny, choose a path that has many similarities.

Junie -

If you are still in the process and want a little more than being a cafeteria style Catholic - try RCIA - Rites of Christian Initiation for Adults. It is usually offered at all parishes and is open to anyone who is in the process of learning about the Catholic faith. It is an amazing class and very fulfilling to see other people from all faiths come to learn about being Catholic. Some people do convert at Easter time and some do not. Some are cradle catholics that come to learn more. I would recommend going to that class and if you prefer to not go in your home parish - try a different parish's RCIA class.

 

[Marie17]

I attended for many years after our marrage as we have been married going on 25 years before we switched. Also my DW is a cradle Catholic and she did not have a problem with the change. Granted we had specific issues with our life and our Church. My DS confirmation class was told to meet at the church one Sunday afternoon at 2:00. We dropped him off and they told us they would be finished at around 5:00 and we could pick him up then. Well either DS forgot to tell us or maybe he wasn't told but the Sunday class consisted of the kids being taken to the busiest intersection in town to spend two hours protesting abortion to all the passing cars. Also my DMIL is a lifetime Catholic who has had a rough life(husband died when my DW was 5, from alcoholism, single mother breast cancer twice, and a 45 year old son still with no job and on drugs and alcohol) and she accepts all this as her lot in life and is almost a marter (sp) about it and talks about how God is punishing her but its okay because it was meant to be. She attended the Catholic church every Sunday for her entire life and never found joy in God only her own sorrow. There were just a lot of things pushing us and we felt the need to give our kids a different perspective about church.

My goodness - NEVER have I seen or been near to a parish or youth ministry that would do such a thing without at least someone knowing in the family what sort of meeting it would be. THIS type of information is PUBLISHED in the parish bulletin for weeks before. EVERYONE in the parish knows what the youth group's schedule is and the purpose of their meetings.

Could it be that you did not look at this information? Could it be that your child actually did not want to tell you about it because they knew it would be viewed by you as something derogatory? Not laying any blame but I just have never come across anything about any church groups (from ladies to mens to youth to kids) that their information/agenda is NOT published long in advance of that function actually happening.

If your child did not want to participate in this - I can't believe that a youth minister or the priest did not allow them to call home to say "please come get me."

 

[sodaseller]

Also regarding Communion- the Catholic Church only allows Catholics to take Communion. Other baptized Christians are excluded. That's something that kind of bothers me.[/QUOTE

Why should it bother you? If you go into a Catholic Church and go up to communion and you DID NOT believe you were actually receiving the Body and Blood of Christ - why take it? To most religions, communion is just a "symbol" of the last supper. THIS is NOT the case to those who believe in the Real Presence. I wouldn't say "amen" to something I did not believe in. It is out of respect for that religion to not participate in something you do not have the faith or belief in.

Personally, I wouldn't go into the LDS church and take communion just because I was there. I wouldn't accept communion in a Baptist church for the same reason.

I used to be a Eucharistic minister for a previous parish we were in and it was not on our checklist to ask someone their religious background before giving out communion.

Consubstantiation just won't do! Or as Flannery O'Connor would say, "if it's just a symbol, then to hell with it!". Hope I can say that on the DIS - it is what Ms. O'Connor said after all, and no one ever considered her profane

 

[JunieJay]

Junie -

If you are still in the process and want a little more than being a cafeteria style Catholic - try RCIA - Rites of Christian Initiation for Adults. It is usually offered at all parishes and is open to anyone who is in the process of learning about the Catholic faith. It is an amazing class and very fulfilling to see other people from all faiths come to learn about being Catholic. Some people do convert at Easter time and some do not. Some are cradle catholics that come to learn more. I would recommend going to that class and if you prefer to not go in your home parish - try a different parish's RCIA class.

Thank you, but I was reared in Catholic schools and unless I was on my deathbed (which amazingly never happened ), went to Mass EVERY Sunday and every Holy Day of my entire childhood. I'm pretty familiar with what it means to be a Catholic. I have made the choice to only select a few dishes in the cafeteria line, that is all.

I know many people who have attended RCIA and enjoyed it, so I think its a good suggestion. Just not one that I really need though.

 

[Cool-Beans]

Consubstantiation just won't do! Or as Flannery O'Connor would say, "if it's just a symbol, then to hell with it!". Hope I can say that on the DIS - it is what Ms. O'Connor said after all, and no one ever considered her profane

The Misfit did.

 

[Marie17]

Thank you, but I was reared in Catholic schools and unless I was on my deathbed (which amazingly never happened ), went to Mass EVERY Sunday and every Holy Day of my entire childhood. I'm pretty familiar with what it means to be a Catholic. I have made the choice to only select a few dishes in the cafeteria line, that is all.

I know many people who have attended RCIA and enjoyed it, so I think its a good suggestion. Just not one that I really need though.

I understand you were reared in the faith - but - from some of my experiences with RCIA we've had plenty of people over the years who were taught in Catholic school and went every Sunday and the whole nine yards but NOW that they are more mature in life they sometimes get a new understanding of a concept they thought they knew everything about.

 

[brerrabbit]

My goodness - NEVER have I seen or been near to a parish or youth ministry that would do such a thing without at least someone knowing in the family what sort of meeting it would be. THIS type of information is PUBLISHED in the parish bulletin for weeks before. EVERYONE in the parish knows what the youth group's schedule is and the purpose of their meetings.

Could it be that you did not look at this information? Could it be that your child actually did not want to tell you about it because they knew it would be viewed by you as something derogatory? Not laying any blame but I just have never come across anything about any church groups (from ladies to mens to youth to kids) that their information/agenda is NOT published long in advance of that function actually happening.

If your child did not want to participate in this - I can't believe that a youth minister or the priest did not allow them to call home to say "please come get me."

The couple that was teaching the Confirmation class took it upon themselves to stage this demonstration and no it was not PUBLISHED in any Church bulletin, and no the Parish priest was not aware that it was taking place, and no we were not informed in any way that the protest was happening, and no EVERYONE did not know it was happening. Regardless of my DW feelings or my feelings about abortion the point is 15 and 16 year olds are not at a point to have even considered the overall idea of abortion and even if they were set in their beliefs the couple had no reason to haul the confirmation class out to a demonstration.

 

[Cool-Beans]

Thank you, but I was reared in Catholic schools and unless I was on my deathbed (which amazingly never happened ), went to Mass EVERY Sunday and every Holy Day of my entire childhood. I'm pretty familiar with what it means to be a Catholic.

When you're a kid, it means doing what you are told until you pass out.

Seriously, we were in church one spring and they were doing the up, kneel, up, sit, kneel, say the rosary, walk around with incense thing. It was HOT out and hotter in, and they wouldn't even open the windows...until Jaime passed out.

When fourth graders start dropping, they open the windows.

When you are raised in the church (especially if you have religious family members), you don't need instruction. You know the good and the bad.

Everyone has to do what is right for them. Be Catholic, don't be Catholic. Believe in God, don't believe. We all try to be the best people we can be and go about it in the best way we can.