Buy at SSR to save money

[KAT4DISNEY]

Here is something that I don't understand, please help me.

I get saving money-but if Disney added a new restriction that resale points were not available to make reservations at the 11 month window, there would be complaints and lawsuits galore and yet that is what happens when you (not refering to the OP, just any person in general) buy with no intent of ever staying at your home resort-you are restricting yourself to rooms you can get at the 7-month window. (It's the Opposite DRR restriction- only rooms at the 13 other resorts at 7 months)

I know that you can, in theory, stay at SSR and may even put down a reservation there for backup, but from the posts I've read, people who do this will then stalk day and night until they get something that better fits what they want.

It just doesn't make sense to me. You are getting cheap points but the points don't have the value that points at a resort that you would stay at would have.

I am not even getting into the fact that returning to the same resort regularly makes it feel like more than just a room. I don't think you get that by hopping around WDW on every trip.

There would certainly be complaints but it's not a given it would be from those who bought cheaper points to stay elsewhere. They might though if it meant the terms affected the points when they went to sell thus potentially adding restrictions that didn't apply to them and what they bought. Sound a little familiar?

For the other part it must vary on how you view your ownership. I don't actually consider it my "home". It's still essentially a hotel or rather hotels that I visit and get to know pretty well. There's a couple other hotels various places that I view the same way and those are cash rooms. I know them but they are hotel lodging accommodations to me. We like lots of the DVC resorts so why limit ourselves to one? If we had to we could but we like to experience different places.

Do you think there is anything in the POS from preventing them from doing this 7 month point chart revision only for resale points? By maintaining the chart for direct points they could tout that as another “benefit”...

If they did that it likely wouldn’t make that much of a difference for availability for direct points if the resale population is a relatively small percentage of all point but it sure would suppress the idea of buy cheap points and book popular resorts strategies. I suppose it would be more of a PR/value perception change than a functional one.

Personally I think that one is fairly safe and I don't feel that they could differentiate out resale points for different charts. Drusba isn't incorrect that they are violating some parts of the contract. Of course they've done that all for the good of the owners. They are allowed to do different 7 month charts but I think it would have to be all or none.

 

[samcdonald2019]

We are thinking about buying points at Saratoga Springs to save money, both up front and in maintenance fees. We don't plan on ever staying there and instead would book 1 or 2 bedroom villas at the other DVC properties. We live in Florida, so we can go for 2 or 3 nights with flexibility. Is this a bad strategy? The only resort we would like to stay at and may have trouble booking at 7 months is a studio at the Poly. Has anyone else used this strategy and does it work for you? Thanks!!

I'm a Florida resident and have thought about this too, but am not a fan of SSR or DS. Right now I'm stalking the sites looking for a small contract at BR, Poly or GF. I have foster kids and dog that I take to Fort Wilderness cabins or campsites. Though on a solo trip recently I scored $120/night at Waldorf Astoria on Priceline with view of 2 fireworks shows and boy was that nice

 

[kniquy]

The only resort we would like to stay at and may have trouble booking at 7 months is a studio at the Poly. Has anyone else used this strategy and does it work for you? Thanks!!

The real answer is - it depends. When would you want to travel? Because you live in FL are you just planning on looking a month out to see what you can book?

DVC works for those who plan ahead of time. If plan on staying from Oct to Mid Jan -- then at 7 months you might only have SSR or OKW to choose from. Other times of the year are slower times for DVC so you should have pretty good options at the 7 month mark. But if your plan is to only book a month or two out you might not have much to choose from or you could piece together a split stay for a 2-3 days - so not really ideal to be moving between resorts for such a short stay.

Because you are looking for 1 or 2BR you should have some decent options at 7 months. I would not buy into DVC if you really intend on using on short notice because you might be frustrated with the lack of options.

As for Poly availability - again if you can book at 7 months, then you should be able to find a room there between Mid Jan to sept, but don't expect to stay there Oct - Jan.

What you can do is book SSR during your 7-11 month window. This will at least ensure something on site. This is especially necessary during the high demand fall frenzy. Then at 7 months check and see what else is open.

 

[dvcsince93]

There would certainly be complaints but it's not a given it would be from those who bought cheaper points to stay elsewhere. They might though if it meant the terms affected the points when they went to sell thus potentially adding restrictions that didn't apply to them and what they bought. Sound a little familiar?

For the other part it must vary on how you view your ownership. I don't actually consider it my "home". It's still essentially a hotel or rather hotels that I visit and get to know pretty well. There's a couple other hotels various places that I view the same way and those are cash rooms. I know them but they are hotel lodging accommodations to me. We like lots of the DVC resorts so why limit ourselves to one? If we had to we could but we like to experience different places.

Here is my concern- it is precisely about "what you bought"- DVC is not selling, and even resale purchasers are not buying, memberships in a "club" or in a "hotel group", everyone in DVC has bought an ownership interest in a single resort.
Now, DVD has expanded DVC, and their profits, by offering 11 of these resorts on WDW property. The issue is what does that purchase of an interest in a single resort give you now and in the future.

To me, it is not a question related to people who stay at both their home resort and other resorts, it is a more narrow question as to whether the purchase of an interest in one resort -to avoid the cost of resorts you actually want to stay in- is good for all members of DVC. I would be interested in knowing more about DVD expected point usage but my guess is that the system was not set up for a significant number of people to actively avoid the resort that they own. My guess (and its only a guess) is that DVD imposed the new restrictions to eliminate this practice in the future.

I find it difficult defending DVD, but I believe that they have grandfathered all purchases for any of the restrictions that they have made- so I disagree with the idea they they have added any restrictions to something you already own. If anything, gaming the system by buying cheap points solely to use at expensive resorts is arguably restricting my point usage at 7 mos and making it different than what I bought. Sadly, that does sound familar to me.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

Here is my concern- it is precisely about "what you bought"- DVC is not selling, and even resale purchasers are not buying, memberships in a "club" or in a "hotel group", everyone in DVC has bought an ownership interest in a single resort.
Now, DVD has expanded DVC, and their profits, by offering 11 of these resorts on WDW property. The issue is what does that purchase of an interest in a single resort give you now and in the future.

To me, it is not a question related to people who stay at both their home resort and other resorts, it is a more narrow question as to whether the purchase of an interest in one resort -to avoid the cost of resorts you actually want to stay in- is good for all members of DVC. I would be interested in knowing more about DVD expected point usage but my guess is that the system was not set up for a significant number of people to actively avoid the resort that they own. My guess (and its only a guess) is that DVD imposed the new restrictions to eliminate this practice in the future.

I find it difficult defending DVD, but I believe that they have grandfathered all purchases for any of the restrictions that they have made- so I disagree with the idea they they have added any restrictions to something you already own. If anything, gaming the system by buying cheap points solely to use at expensive resorts is arguably restricting my point usage at 7 mos and making it different than what I bought. Sadly, that does sound familar to me.

You misunderstood my post. I meant that I purchased use at a hotel. It's not a "home" of any sort for me vs your wanting to stay at the same resort because it then feels like more than a room. It's a difference in view and I'm sure there are other POV about it too.

The system is even now still sold as "purchase here" but "you can trade to xxx". When you purchase we all have the 11-7 month window to book at a home resort. In the beginning they had a big concern about even starting DVC without a trade and I do think that adds value to the product. It requires more planning than booking a hotel room if you want to be certain to stay at your home resort but that also is part of the product. It is not the only way to stay onsite at Disney or in any of the areas that DVC has built the 3 offsite resorts. If you don't want to plan or don't want to risk not staying at a particular place then that needs to be factored in especially since what we purchased is pretty up front in the documentation that there is no guarantee of a room of the exact type at the time you want to visit. There's little we buy that doesn't have some pluses or minus. But I don't think that trading is a minus. I'll dispute that it's anything even close to "gaming a system" when it all falls within the rules. DVD/DVC is the only one at fault for any disparity between the resorts they build.

 

[crisi]

Anecdotally I’m finding one and two bedroom availability at seven months harder to come by. Perhaps because we do long stays. I find myself at AKL the majority of the time. Again, not a problem, but if I found myself at SSR all the time, I wouldn’t be pleased.

As information shifts, so will booking patterns. Back when we bought (going on twenty years ago), BW was easy to get in October - F&W started later. Even for the first few years of the early October F&W start, it was easy to get that reservation (our kids were in school and our state has a second week in October break). But that tightened up over a few years.

Right now, September F&W is fairly easy to get - but it WILL tighten up over time.

Likewise one bedrooms are easy to get - but as people start planning for "I really want to try BWV or BCV at F&W, lets pool two years of points to be able to get a one bedroom - or pick up a small contract so we have the flexibility to book one bedrooms" that will change as well. (And Disney WILL complete that point reallocation which will make studios more expensive and one bedrooms less - but probably over time and less dramatically).

The other thing that will continue to impact booking patterns is sales - both sales of new resorts and resales. As DVC puts more rooms into the system, there continue to only be a handful of rooms at VGC - but more people who want a sometimes stay at Disneyland. As more resales happen, people will by where they want to stay - booking home at eleven months - leaving availability even shorter at the high demand resorts. As people discover that with a few extra points, a world opens up with one bedrooms, they will buy a few extra points - and one bedrooms will become harder to come by.

 

[zavandor]

Here is my concern- it is precisely about "what you bought"- DVC is not selling, and even resale purchasers are not buying, memberships in a "club" or in a "hotel group", everyone in DVC has bought an ownership interest in a single resort.
Now, DVD has expanded DVC, and their profits, by offering 11 of these resorts on WDW property. The issue is what does that purchase of an interest in a single resort give you now and in the future.

Not entierly true.
We bought an ownership interest in a resort which belongs to a Vacation Club (not just a marketing term, I've found references to Vacation Clubs in the Florida law). Our contract says that as long as our resort belongs to the club we can exhange with other resorts and that other resorts must join the club with the same conditions as existing resorts. It's in the contract.

This could be enough for legal action against the recent resale restrictions, but currently there aren't enough people affected by them. Maybe in a few years, especially with Riviera resale owners, someone will be motivated enough to start a "Would you join a lawsuit" thread that will be successful. I bet that if they make a 7 months point chart only for resale owners one would immediately be created.

 

[Jerry@dvcstore]

I own Saratoga Springs and Boardwalk and have been a member since 2004. I live in Florida and typically book all my reservations less than 7 months in advance. I think your strategy is spot on, but you may need to be flexible with your dates or size of the villa you stay in.

Saratoga has a longer deed than most resorts, it has one of the lowest annual fees, and it cost less than most locations (except HH, VB, and OKW). I never planned to book more than 7 months in advance (unless using BW for Food and Wine), so Saratoga was a perfect fit for my family. I have been more than happy with Saratoga and would recommend that location to anyone who doesn't plan on booking more than 7 months out and can be flexible.
Be aware you can book 11 months a SSR if you'd like, and then at the 7 month window, look to see what else is available too.

 

[Spartan86]

but unbeknownst to many, the POS documents specifically allow DVC to change the 7-month point charts to be entirely different from the 11-month point charts and, unlike for the 11-month point charts, there is no rule for the 7-month point charts that would require any increase in nightly points for rooms to be met by a like decrease at other times.

I don’t believe I’ve seen this discussed before. I’ve worked through the various POS’s a bit but not to the extent you have. Is this as you say specifically laid out as in: “we reserve the right to produce different point charts for different times”; or more implied as in the language that essentially states: “we can make necessary changes to address demand at various times”?

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

I don’t believe I’ve seen this discussed before. I’ve worked through the various POS’s a bit but not to the extent you have. Is this as you say specifically laid out as in: “we reserve the right to produce different point charts for different times”; or more implied as in the language that essentially states: “we can make changes to address demand at various times”?

As drusba stated, it is in the POS. All of them afaik. And the Master, not just the individual POS. I don't have one in front of me right now to point you directly to it but it's under a booking section that shares how BVTC is in charge of the 7 month booking and it is somehwere there about the ability to have different point requirements at 7 months.

 

[Spartan86]

As drusba stated, it is in the POS. All of them afaik.

Thanks.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

Thanks.

There's another unique option they have available for Aulani too. It's been awhile since I read it but it might allow them to charge a fee to book if demand warrants it?

 

[Jkarrows]

My family has stayed at Saratoga so many times and we love it, ideally located and will be looking good after the planned re-fit.

I would recommend anyone to stay here for location alone.

 

[Deb & Bill]

DVC usually lists the resort availability for one week out, two weeks out, up to 60 days out. Right now at 60 days out, you could get three nights or two nights in a SSR studio or one night in an OKW studio. A week in a SSR or OKW one or two bedroom, a BRV one bedroom, a week in a THV or GV at SSR, one night in a BLT GV or a week in a Bungalow. It gets less and less as you move closer to next week. Plus you don't know if there is one studio or two or three. Same with the larger villas. If you can't book sooner than this, you are going to be disappointed. 60 days out from Oct, Nov or Dec, there will be even less inventory.

 

[drusba]

I don’t believe I’ve seen this discussed before. I’ve worked through the various POS’s a bit but not to the extent you have. Is this as you say specifically laid out as in: “we reserve the right to produce different point charts for different times”; or more implied as in the language that essentially states: “we can make necessary changes to address demand at various times”?

Under the DVC Membership Agreement, DVCMC is to set the points needed to reserve your Home Resort, and it is subject to the rule that that when changes are made for any year, any increase in some nights for rooms must be offset by an equal decrease for other nights. DVCMC is actually given no power anywhere in the official documents to determine the points needed per night when using the Disney Reservation Component run by BVTC that applies to making reservations at 7 months out for DVC Resorts other than the one you own.

That power is given solely to BVTC. The Multi-Site Public Offering Statement (sec 3(a)(2)(b) in the BWV POS) provides: "The number of DVC Vacation points required to make reservations at a DVC Resort from any other DVC Resort is determined by BVTC in its sole discretion from year to year." See like language in the DVC Resort Agreement (sec 5.2 of the BWV agreement). There is no requirement that an increase in some nights must be met by an equal offset in other nights. To date, BVTC has simply always just followed the Home Resort point requirements determined by DVCMC but it is not required to do so. Moreover, unlike DVCMC which focuses on evening out demand at each particular resort when it makes changes, BVTC is supposed to consider demand patterns between and among the resorts and evening out demand among the resorts (see sec 3(a)(2)(b) of the MSPOS), and thus to lower the too high demand for the near park resorts at 7 months out and raise the too low demand for other resorts like SSR, it could easily just raise the points needed per night to reserve those near park resorts at 7 months out.

 

[Wakey]

There were unequivocal statements made in sales and even videos now online that points will never go up. I still believe this realisation was one of the reason for backtracking on the lockoff premium as it would lead to a lawsuit. They stated points wouldn’t go up- full stop- not that they won’t go up at certain times. It may now say something different in the POS but you cannot mislead buyers who bought on the back of such statements. Unless of course they lowered points at 11 but the declarations say they can only do this to balance demand.

 

[Hjs33]

Under the DVC Membership Agreement, DVCMC is to set the points needed to reserve your Home Resort, and it is subject to the rule that that when changes are made for any year, any increase in some nights for rooms must be offset by an equal decrease for other nights. DVCMC is actually given no power anywhere in the official documents to determine the points needed per night when using the Disney Reservation Component run by BVTC that applies to making reservations at 7 months out for DVC Resorts other than the one you own.

That power is given solely to BVTC. The Multi-Site Public Offering Statement (sec 5.2 in the BWV POS) provides: "The number of DVC Vacation points required to make reservations at a DVC Resort from any other DVC Resort is determined by BVTC in its sole discretion from year to year." See like language in the DVC Resort Agreement (sec 5.2 of the BWV agreement). There is no requirement that an increase in some nights must be met by an equal offset in other nights. To date, BVTC has simply always just followed the Home Resort point requirements determined by DVCMC but it is not required to do so. Moreover, unlike DVCMC which focuses on evening out demand at each particular resort when it makes changes, BVTC is supposed to consider demand patterns between and among the resorts and evening out demand among the resorts (see sec 5..2 of the MSPOS), and thus to lower the too high demand for the near park resorts at 7 months out and raise the too low demand for other resorts like SSR, it could easily just raise the points needed per night to reserve those near park resorts at 7 months out.

This would make no sense. Under this scenario a Saratoga Springs owner would see the cost to rent a room drop at 7 months. Wouldn’t this cause there to be too many Saratoga Springs points left over as basically people would be able to book more nights for the same number of points. Eventually they would run out of available nights and some owners would have points they couldn’t use. I think they can shift points around busy and slow periods, but have to keep the total points the same at each resort. In theory that way every owner should be able to book a room with their points.

Also, this would be horrible marketing. Can you imagine Disney trying to sell new resorts with this change? Yes, you can exchange into one of the other resorts, but your points could be worth less depending on how popular that resort is.... Or the number of nights you get for your points at the resort you are buying could go down at the 7 month point.

 

[drusba]

What I described is something that could occur not that it will. When it comes to taking steps that can have a negative impact on the resale market, e.g., possibly lowering resale demand for cheaper resorts like SSR and OKW, which could occur with the change I mentioned, the "new" DVC does not seem to care about horrible marketing. The Riviera resale restrictions are perceived by many to be horrible marketing but the "new" DVC was willing to take the risk because it assumed people would still buy the new resort even with that awful resale restriction, and early sales figures appear to indicate DVC may be correct.

Also, the example I gave would not change the points needed at SSR at all. BVTC could issue charts that simply raised the points needed for near park resorts at 7 months out, leaving SSR as is. Such would likely lower demand for the near park resorts at 7 months out while raising it for SSR by having more SSR owners reserving SSR, which, for much of the year, currently has large numbers of vacancies at 7 months out.

And further on the "horrible marketing" point, this would really not be any worse than the suggested point changes that DVC attempted to make for 2020 and still believes it can make. Over a period of ten years, it raised point prices close to 100% while purchasers real income increased little if at all. It "oversold" studios by selling those very expensive points for showcase rooms like the bungalows and cabins to persons who could afford only enough points to get studios. It thus created high over-demand for studios. Was its proposed solution to create more studios in new resorts or lower the sale prices? No. Its proposed solution was to continue its sales practices that oversell studios while raising the points needed to reserve studios (and 1BRs) year round. That itself should have created "horrible marketing" because what it tells purchasers is that DVC believes it can just arbitrarily raise the points you need year round whenever it feels like it. It convinced all those purchasers they would be fine buying just enough points to get studios and then decided to punish those purchasers by raising the points needed year round. So what we may perceive to be horrible marketing and something that makes no sense is clearly not what the "new" DVC perceives.

Also, the sales rule that prevents selling more points at a resort than needed to reserve all the rooms for a year likely has no applicability to the 7-month reservation points. Since DVC is set up to have an 11 month window limiting the reservations to those who own at the resort, it keeps in compliance with that sales rule by having home resort point charts that meet that sales rule and require decreases in points for nights when increases are made for other nights. The 7-month reservation window, when purchasers of other resorts can reserve a resort, does not need to meet that sales rule because the system is set up to give the owners of the resort the longer window, and thus BVTC can just raise points needed to reserve at 7-months out at any given resort without lowering points anywhere else.

Also, mentioned above are historical representations made, including in the Product Understanding document, that stated total points for a resort could not go up and any increase in points for nights in a room type had to be met by an offsetting decrease for other nights. The problem with any new purchaser relying on those historical representations is two-fold: (a) the "new" DVC has expressly disclaimed that it is bound by any such prior representations; and (b) if you review those representations, you will find that DVC can assert they are talking about home resort reservations and point charts and not those that BVTC could create to apply at 7 months out for reserving a resort other than the one you own.

As I stated, the possibility of changing the 7-month window points is just a risk a new purchaser should be aware of. Six months ago, I would have concluded it likely would never occur. The actions of the "new" DVC in the last six months indicate the possibility exists.

 

[dvcsince93]

I believe what you characterize as "horrible marketing", DVD is using to sell direct points.

You know and follow the resale market. My guess is that most direct buyers don't follow the resale market or even consider it. For example, it appears only 10-12% of DVC contracts are ever sold by their original buyer, so I don't think DVD is overly concerned that direct buyers see resale as their major concern. They want to stay at WDW resorts.

I do think most members are aware of the reservations challenges once the 7 month window kicks, and DVD can sell the idea to purchasers of new resorts- DRR, Reflections, and others coming, that the new restrictions will keep people from buying resale points and then using them at these new resorts. Fewer points with the ability to make reservation at the new resorts, ultimately means less competition for rooms at those resorts.

 

[zavandor]

And further on the "horrible marketing" point, this would really not be any worse than the suggested point changes that DVC attempted to make for 2020 and still believes it can make.

They have said that they belive it. We'll see if they really believe it (and are ready to face a lawsuit) when the 2021 point charts will be published.