Bush won't rule out nuclear stike on Iran...

Charade said:
But they still come here in droves for work, to live and to play.

Perhaps nobody told you yet, but the last immgration waves from Europe towards the USA were shortly after WWII. Just because some thousands Americans moved to Canada during the last six years I would neither speak of an emmigration wave ;)

But yes,
I like still like to spend my vacations in the USA. I know that only about 25% of the Americans voted for the Shrub and I still hope that in 2008 your country gets back to normality.

And just because you're no longer considered the 'Good Guy', it doesn't mean that you're the 'Bad Guy' now. I know that for some people it's easier to think in terms of Black & White, but here comes the awful truth for you: There are shades of Greay between those two extremes. Guantananmo, the use of torture in Abu Graib, the lies used to justify that war, etc unfortunately sent your country right onto that 'Grey Zone'.
 
sodaseller said:
Maybe so, though I don't want to believe that. I do think that much of the elite anti Israel coverage in Europe comes from seeing Israel as a "colonial" power like those same European nations were before the last half of the 20th Century. I will wholeheartedly agree that the significant Muslim populations in Europe are very Anti-Semitic. From my limited understanding (correct me if I am wrong) they are responsible for much of the defacement of Jewish cemeteries, etc.

You're the one oversimplifying here:
The majority of the Muslims living in Germany are regular peaceloving people. Simply saying that all Muslims are anti-semitic, because of some fanatics is the same as saying that all Christians bomb abortion clinics or believe in rubbish like intelligent design.
The majority over here thinks that Israelis as well as Palestinians have a right to live in that place, but unfortunately both parties do their best to make that place hell on earth.
Even more unfortunately:
As soon as someone says something against one of those parties he's either 'anti-semitic' or 'anti-muslim'.
Speaking for myself, I'm simply 'anti-fanatic' and 'anit-violence' PERIOD.

BTW,
the defacement of Jewish cemeteries which unfortunately still happens from time to time is usually done by Skinheads/Neo-Nazis, not by muslims.
 
Viking said:
You're the one oversimplifying here:
The majority of the Muslims living in Germany are regular peaceloving people. Simply saying that all Muslims are anti-semitic, because of some fanatics is the same as saying that all Christians bomb abortion clinics or believe in rubbish like intelligent design.
The majority over here thinks that Israelis as well as Palestinians have a right to live in that place, but unfortunately both parties do their best to make that place hell on earth.
Even more unfortunately:
As soon as someone says something against one of those parties he's either 'anti-semitic' or 'anti-muslim'.
Speaking for myself, I'm simply 'anti-fanatic' and 'anit-violence' PERIOD.

BTW,
the defacement of Jewish cemeteries which unfortunately still happens from time to time is usually done by Skinheads/Neo-Nazis, not by muslims.

I will stand corrected if the defacements are skinheads instead of Muslims. That is not what I have read, but you are plainly more knowledgeable about the reality on the ground than I. I have read fairly persuasive tomes about the fact that Muslims in Europe do not enculturate, even generations hence. I have had that confirmed by reading and by an admittedly unreprsentative sample of European opinion (a professional colleague in Belgium). I have also read that Euro politicians (don't you just love a grossly overbroad phrase like that - apologies) are cognizant and influenced by those segments of population in setting Mideast policy, although not in the way that ignorant Rightwingers here suggest
 
sodaseller said:
I will stand corrected if the defacements are skinheads instead of Muslims. That is not what I have read, but you are plainly more knowledgeable about the reality on the ground than I.

I believe you are correct about anti-semetic acts in France (large muslim population from former French colonies in North Africa) but not in Germany (large Muslim population from Turkey, a secular democracy with little history of antisemitism)

You cannot lump Europe together as the constituent countries are different in their attitudes and history.
 

punkin said:
I believe you are correct about anti-semetic acts in France (large muslim population from former French colonies in North Africa) but not in Germany (large Muslim population from Turkey, a secular democracy with little history of antisemitism)

You cannot lump Europe together as the constituent countries are different in their attitudes and history.
Thanks for the correction - I am happy to be corrected on such matters.

You raise the Turks, which are an interesting case study. In many ways the most progressive predominantly Islamic state available, allies in large part with Israel, no real jihadis, secular in government. Then again, we are only 90 years removed from a pogroms against Christians there, the Armenian genocide, although that was before Kemal Ataturk's reforms. Pope Benedict XVI has opposed Turkish integration into Eusrope on identity terms, and I'm not sure I agree with him - sounds too much like Said's Orientalism. Plus, no nation or peoople stand up well to even the most cursory review of history. We all have our atrocities in our background
 
Khamenei ratchets up the rhetoric considerably....


Iran Willing to Share Nuclear Information
By VOA News
25 April 2006



Iran's supreme leader says his country is willing to share nuclear technology with other countries.

Ayatollah Ali Khamenei told visiting Sudanese President Omar al-Bashir that Iran is prepared to transfer the nuclear experience, knowledge and technology of its scientists.

Their talks came as Iran's top nuclear negotiator, Ali Larijani, warned that Iran would stop cooperating with the United Nations' nuclear agency if the Security Council imposes sanctions against Iran. He said Iran would also hide its nuclear activities if there is a military action against it.

The negotiator spoke Tuesday, three days before the Security Council deadline for Iran to stop enriching uranium.

The U.S. ambassador to the U.N. says the Council plans to consider a resolution to legally require Iran to comply with international nuclear demands. But permanent Council members China and Russia have opposed such a measure.

Russia and China say the matter should be handled by the International Atomic Energy Agency.

Washington and the European Union are pressing for U.N. sanctions against Iran for refusing to stop its nuclear program. They say the program could lead to the production of nuclear weapons. Tehran insists its aims are peaceful.

Separately, Russia launched an Israeli reconnaissance satellite into orbit. News reports from Israel say the satellite is designed to improve the country's surveillance of Iran's nuclear program.

So, what do we do about this?
 
Viking said:
BTW,
voicing criticism about Israel's policies has nothing to do with anti-semitism, but is so easy to simply discard that criticism by simply calling in anit-semitism.
It's the same with people being considered anti-american, just because they are anti-Bush. :confused3

Which is no different than being labeled anti-muslim just because they are anti-muslim-extremist terrorists.
 
Charade said:
But they still come here in droves for work, to live and to play.

Exactly.

Typcial America bashers --they say one thing and do another. Why don't those losers protest against terrorism instead of those fighting it.

Just like those countries that take our millions in aid and then protest against our country. :sad2:
 
bsnyder said:
Khamenei ratchets up the rhetoric considerably....




So, what do we do about this?

I think we should ask Bush to look deeper into Putin's eyes and see what kind of vibes he picks up this time. :lmao:
 
JoeEpcotRocks said:
There definitely is good vs. evil in this world.

Here I am quoting JoeEpcot and agreeing with him in every particular.

I firmly believe that some things are just pure unadulturated evil that have to be fought against to the last breath in my body (much as I dislike Bush and Co., they are not in that league).

The moral relativism in which some posters on this thread have engaged is astounding.
 
Of course there is good and evil in the world. Speaking personally, no concept is more central to my worldview. But let us not forget Hannah Arendt's "banality of evil" in writing about the Nazi regime. We often let evil take hold by not recognizing how mundane its forms can be and thinking each human is either constitutively good or constitutively evil. In point of fact, all of us have the capacity for evil, left unchecked (Daniel Jonah Goldhagen wrote about this with reference to the Holocaust). And many of mankind's most heinous acts have been undertaken in the name of a crusade against evil. Resisting evil requires both group action against evil protagonists and also self-reflection and moral analysis of our own actions.

Equating Bush and Hiter is nonsense. But denying our own capacity for evil on a smaller scale is dangerous
 
I have to rely on my rusty memory of Arendt's book, but I believe her point was precicely that Eichman was evil. The fact that he concentrated on the logistics of train schedules and other "banalities" does not excuse him from being labled evil becasue he knew very well that those numbers on paper represented real people being systimatically exterminated.

I do not believe your point is substantiated by the content of her book.

As for the other work you quoted, I have not read it and can have no independent opinion.

However, overall I agree with you. I just don't think Arendt ever addressed the issues in the way you are presenting them.
 
sodaseller said:
Equating Bush and Hiter is nonsense. But denying our own capacity for evil on a smaller scale is dangerous

Time tempers the impact of terrible evils over generations. Sometimes even less than that. I just shake my head in bewilderment when I see comparisons made between true evil and the current administration. As you said, it's nonsense but gets lots of air play and makes good rhetoric.
 
punkin said:
I have to rely on my rusty memory of Arendt's book, but I believe her point was precicely that Eichman was evil. The fact that he concentrated on the logistics of train schedules and other "banalities" does not excuse him from being labled evil becasue he knew very well that those numbers on paper represented real people being systimatically exterminated.

I do not believe your point is substantiated by the content of her book.

As for the other work you quoted, I have not read it and can have no independent opinion.

However, overall I agree with you. I just don't think Arendt ever addressed the issues in the way you are presenting them.


The way I meant it, and my exegesis may be faulty, is that evil does not always take the monstrous form so clear in cinema, where there is a large dark Darth Vader figure who kicks his cat as he enters the house and slaps his wife. At its most basic, Arendt was referring to the fact that while Eichman was malevolent, he cut a fairly unremarkable figure in person, and that many of the overt acts he engaged in were logistical, not dramatic.

One of my common lines, and I have no idea if it is true, is that Hitler may have been nice to animals. There is no clean Manichean dualism that lets you identify a particular person as "evil" and another as "good". Moral judgment requires that we recognize that evil can be charming and seductive, and, most importantly, that is can be rationalized by common people without great animus. Daniel Jonah Goldhagen undertook the famous "Hitler's Willing Executioners", a book about how ordinary German citizens undertook most of the acts that created eh Holocaust, most without any significant moral reasoning, with rationalization. The same author did a strong piece on my church titled "A Moral Reckoning" in which he addressed via contrast how many Jewish lives could have been saved by internal moral outcry at what all recognized was occurring but imagined themselves powerless to prevent and at peril if they protested.

To apply all this to the points, there is definitely evil in the world, but it doesn't always take the form of a mass movement that is easily branded such that military action is the simple solution. It is not always the Rebel Alliance against the Evil Empire. Much of the battle against evil is internal based on moral reasoning addressing complex factual patterns. Of particular application to the Iraq question is Just War Doctrine, jus ad bellum. Before the war, Bush apologists like Michael bnovak tried to take an overly reductive view of the doctrine, focusing solely on intent, i.e. war could not be wrong if our intent were pure.

That's not the doctrine, and there are six conditions to a just war, and I will concede that for my purposes the doctrine is overly restrictive. For moral analysis of the use of force by a state in war, I tend towards Reinhold Neibuhr, who referred to Moral Man and Immoral Society and the state's obligation to resort to patent immorality to oppose evil. But that doesn't mean that none of the planks of JWD are applicable, and we have seen here that by avoiding the principle of due discrimination, of proportionality and studied attempt toward probability of success and last resort and comparable harms, we may have made matters worse, not better, for a region. It's also a corollary of the law of double effect.

Having an outlook like Joe's, which hubristically claims to advance good without serious reflection of the nature of the acts or concern about the actual effect of those acts, has historically been a recipe for evil. The belief that one always make moral decisions without reflection and defend it by reference to broad themes is morally flawed. And it's what our President does. I understand that a public persona requires a bit more certitude in oratory than in private thoughts. But I don't believe that he has internal reflection, that there is a well formed conscience, as we say in Catholic moral thought

There's a million subpoints here, all of which leave this cursory address into serious questions subject to caricature or misinterpretation. But I think a large cause of evil in today's world results from the fact that we cannot honestly engage in moral reasoning. I interpret his statement as an attempt to short-circuit serious discussion, which almost always leads to evil.
 
Charade said:
Time tempers the impact of terrible evils over generations. Sometimes even less than that. I just shake my head in bewilderment when I see comparisons made between true evil and the current administration. As you said, it's nonsense but gets lots of air play and makes good rhetoric.
Yes, Bush is not Hitler. But the issue is, why not? None of our 43 Presidents have led this nation within light years of the evil of the Nazi state. Why is that? Is it because we use a superior selection (electoral) process? Is it because we are a superior people to post Weimar Germans? I think not in both instances.

No doubt that over 43 chances, we have selected many Presidents with the capacity for deep evil, if not Hitlerian then some lesser species. In fact, I would note that only Lincoln and Washington would undisputedly qualify as a superiorly enlightened moral actors, even in the face of temptation. No U.S. President has been Hitler or anything close because our political system is designed to check the potential human corruption that comes from amassed power. As Lord Acton noted about the papacy, absolute power corrupts absolutely. Our constitutional structure recognizes that power corrupts any individual. It resolves that not by implementing a section process designed to find the rare incorruptible human, but by limiting the power than any individual can exercise. Had we created a monarchy or some other singular arrogation of power, we would have produced tyrants by now, for sure.

The problem with this President is that he seems singularly unreflective about limitations on his power or the effects of his selected uses of it. That raises the specter of evil corruption. I would daresay that we have never had a President more retrograde in his moral decisions compared with the morality of the times. I am a big believer is judging moral acts in their historical context. Andrew Jackson's Trail of Tears was morally abhorrent and Teddy Roosevelt's "White Man's Burden" (originally Kipling) was disgusting, but neither was out of step with the prevailing moral consensus as this President's regression towards torture as an element of statecraft. Yes, there are cultures and leaders far more evil even today, but we are the world's last best hope, as Lincoln noted, the city of the Hill, modern Rome, the agent behind the moral progress since WWII, the world's first modern democracy. Yet we are led someone who feels none of that.
 
sodaseller said:
Having an outlook like Joe's, which hubristically claims to advance good without serious reflection of the nature of the acts or concern about the actual effect of those acts, has historically been a recipe for evil. The belief that one always make moral decisions without reflection and defend it by reference to broad themes is morally flawed. And it's what our President does. I understand that a public persona requires a bit more certitude in oratory than in private thoughts. But I don't believe that he has internal reflection, that there is a well formed conscience, as we say in Catholic moral thought

There's a million subpoints here, all of which leave this cursory address into serious questions subject to caricature or misinterpretation. But I think a large cause of evil in today's world results from the fact that we cannot honestly engage in moral reasoning. I interpret his statement as an attempt to short-circuit serious discussion, which almost always leads to evil.

I agree. Sort of. I think the label of good and evil is too strong in some ways. Yes, Bush is intellectually (if not morally) incapable of internal reflection. Therefore, many of his acts, which he perceives as moral ultimately lead to an evil outcome. He is, in short, a blundering fool who dabbles in things he does not fully comprehend.

However, my original agreement with Joe as well as my apparent disagreement with you is that some evil is more evil than others (yes I know that is not a very clear way of putting it). If you assign the same "fault" for each bad act, you are engaging in moral relativism, which I find abhorent. There realy are categories of evil.

For example, IMO WWII was a "just war." According to another person on this thread, it was not because the Japanese never invaded the US and Stalin was worse than Hitler anyway. Therefore, it seems that our entry into WWI was wrong and unjustified. The same poster then compares WWII to the current situation in Iraq and Israel's actions against the Palestinians. I really don't see how the three situations are in any way analagous.

Even if you believe (which I do not) that WWII was not "just," how can you compare it with Iraq? We had many good and just reasons for joining the Allies in WWII. We had nothing but lies and distortions coupled with a strong evangelical drive in Bush (My way is right. All who do not follow, are heretics) as flimsy justification for Iraq.
 
I did not mean to suggest that all evil is equivalent - I thought that I said just the opposite. I wholeheartedly agree that there are gradations of evil and that WWII was a Just War. As to the former, I said earlier

There is much in Israel's actions to condemn, but your post suffers from a common malady of late - the inability to engage in moral reasoning absent a clean Manicheean dualism. Life is never so simple (more to the chagrin of the Right here), but that can't paralyze us from making judgments. To condemn some of the IDF actions as not being sufficiently discriminatory against noncombatants and otherwise dehumanizing is valid; to equate them morally to Hamas one to one is not.

One is a force that while not perfect and sometimes not even good in discriminating for noncombatants, follows that principle, and is answerable to a civilian democratically elected government with transparency. The other has been extragovernmental (at least in the past), and targets noncombatants, and celebrates atrocities. We could go on and on, and we should not give Israelis a carte blanche (Sabra and Chatilla were plain evil, as are many of the acts of the former SLA, the Maronites). But that does not make the sides morally indistinguishable. Not even close. That is a fiction of European anti-Israeli bias, stepped in the original sin of colonialism coloring your views

I was saying there that Israelis have committed evil acts, but that they are not equivalent to Hamas. I also thought I made clear that I think JWD can be too restricting and that I embraced Neibuhr. Here is some of what I am getting at there

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinhold_Niebuhr

During the outbreak of World War II, the pacifist leanings of his liberal roots were brought under challenge, and he began to distance himself from the pacifism of his more liberal colleagues, becoming a staunch advocate for the war. Niebuhr soon left the Fellowship of Reconciliation, a peace oriented group of theologians and ministers, and became one of their harshest critics. This departure from his peers evolved into a movement known as Christian Realism and Niebuhr is acknowledged as its primary advocate. Christian Realism provided a more tough-minded approach to politics than the idealism that was held by many of Niebuhr's contemporaries. Within the framework of Christian Realism, Niebuhr became a supporter of US action in World War II, anti-communism, and the development of nuclear weapons.


In the rise of fascism and the horrors of World War II in Europe, Niebuhr saw an evil which demanded opposition by force, even by Christians. Taking this lesson further, he wrote concerning the need for a form of democracy that would empower people and rid the world of the human sin of lording power over others.

The issue with agreeing that "there is good and evil in the world" in the context stated is that it would be employed in that context to promote evil. It is Manicheean. Whoever we oppose is subhuman, and whatever we do to them is therefore moral, because our leader said they burned down the Reichstag and pollute our race, and I am too patriotic to consider good and evil beyond those constructs. What is really being argued there is tribalism above personal moral conscience, which is the antithesis of the whole conception of human rights that evolved after the Nazi state. Loyalty to the Sovereign does not absolve one of crimes against humanity
 
One other thought. I think a better historical analog to the reductionst end of the lack of moral reasoning from the poster referred to is not so much Nazism but the Turks genocide of the Armenians. The Nazi darkness is so difficult to imagine because it was such a clear act of aggressive evil against the weaker party that presented it no threat. hard to see that happening again in any Western polity.

But the Armenian genocide is different. Vast oversimplification - the Ottomans are a world power, among the most powerful at the time. The Serbs, Greeks and other Christians break off in a violent action in which the Sultan's armies are routed. The empire is suffering in self image. It then attempts to reassert its world role in battle against the Russian, at which it is again defeated. In that battle, some Christian Armenians join the Russians against the Turkish state in which they are a lightly persecuted minority. It is also true that the Russians then marched towards Anatolia (where most Armenians were) and that a small portion of their forces were 6000 Armenians Turks. Turkey, a fairly enlightened state even then, responded wit a mass deportation and genocide of the "disloyal" Christian minority.

It was evil, but it could easily be dressed up in loyal patriotism against a real threat (the Ottoman Empire was in its death throes). The issue of identity was also present (Turkey a Muslim state with a Christian minority that chafed to the point of disloyalty). Without moral reasoning, an "us against them" mentality could serve as an internal rationalization for participating in or at least not opposing the genocide. It was ordered from on top (I have seen video of interviews with grandchildren of protagonists that reported their grandparents' eternal lament that they could never forget the screams of those they killed on order from the state, realizing, but only in retrospect, how evil their acts were.
 
Yes, Soda. I did read what you wrote regarding Israel and Hamas.

As far as agreeing with Joe; the context, I believe was when he answered another poster regarding America's entrance into WWII to fight "evil". Iraq did not enter into my view of the context. Therefore, I agreed with him and I believe you do too that limited to our entry into WWII, we were doing it (in large part) to combat evil.

I also agree with you, that at some point personal responsibility overrides orders. That is what the world took away from the Neurenburgh (sp?) trials, and that is a good thing.

Finally, I find it difficult to understand why (in another thread on which you also posted) Bush supporters who disagree with his actions regarding the deficit/debt refuse to acknowledge that he could be wrong about anything. That is taking tribalism to a level I have never seen in this country. The US has a long-standing tradition of outspoken opposition to the government. And this is what scares me.

If it is unpatriotic to oppose the leader, then who is to tell the leader when his actions are wrong? Do we become automotons follwing orders blindly. If so, what makes us different from the Germans during the Holocaust?
 
Then I messed up. I looked back at the thread for context and couldn't find it and presumed the context was for Iraq. My error then.

The budget stuff is crazy, I agree. Ditto for the claim to support the leader.

Swift had a quote that always comes to mind then - "it is useless to attempt to reason a man out of what he was never reasoned into". Of couse, that is applicable across genders
 


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