Buses, ECVs, and the Law

[bookwormde]

Schmeck,

In the first scenario there is unequal access, therefore it could be a basis for a challenge. If this were an isolated situation it would likely be unsuccessful. If it could be established that there was a pattern of this occurrence then WDW would likely be directed to come up with a solution, obviously the solution is to add more wheelchair locations to the busses. It only reaches the level of being a sanctionable situation if WDW fails to develop and effective solution once a pattern of unequal access is identified.

In the second situation ADA has no individual sanctions for not following the rules, there are only “provider sanctions”. So the bus would be considered full and everyone would wait for the next one.

I agree there is an increased use of ECV’s, I wonder if it is some of what some posters were worried about in earlier threads when rental rates went up so precipitously, that a lot more strollers and ECVs would have to be accommodated on the busses as people brought their own or rent off site.

As a note if WDW had a formal queuing system at the loading points, it would not be a denial of equal access for individual needing WC positions to be boarded in que groups, as long as if “bunching occurred” there were adequate position in the busses to prevent this from becoming a secondary effect of the configuration “pattern”.

bookwormde

 

[SueM in MN]

As a note if WDW had a formal queuing system at the loading points, it would not be a denial of equal access for individual needing WC positions to be boarded in que groups, as long as if “bunching occurred” there were adequate position in the busses to prevent this from becoming a secondary effect of the configuration “pattern”.

bookwormde

The problem I see coming with having people with wheelchairs and ECVS queue with everyone else (besides the good possibility of the seats needed by the person using the ECV/wheelchair being already filled) is that it would take extra time.
With no one on the bus, it is much easier to load and tie down the wheelchair/ECV than it is if guests are already on. Doing the ECV/wheelchair first also makes it less likely that anyone would be hurt in the process.

The driver also has to go to the back door to open it and deploy the ramp/lift.

There is a big difference comparing riders of WDW buses to riders of city transportation buses. Most city bus riders are experienced and know what to expect. That makes it faster and easier to load people, wheelchairs or not.
Many people riding WDW buses have never ridden anything like the WDW buses before - their bus experience was probably school buses.

If WDW ever gets buses with the wheelchair spots loaded and tied down in the front, then they could do wheelchairs/ECVs queuing with everyone else. But, that would mean all/majority of buses would have to be like that for it to be an efficient process.

 

[bookwormde]

Sue,

I was not advocating a queue system since as you said it would be very difficult to implement (queue area, redistribution area to allow ECV/wheelchairs to load first within the group etc). I was just using it as an example of what would have to be done to insure equal access to be in keeping with order of arrival, since that was a concern for some people, and gives an idea of some of the complexity and secondary effects in designing a system.

bookwormde

 

[Schmeck]

Open access for everyone. Really. And how do they avoid people in ECVs and PWCs injuring others in the free for all. Doesn't sound like a good idea to me.

Yeah, I guess it would have to depend on the politeness of everyone, and we know that won't happen. My husband's cousin works/lives in Vietnam, and she travels all over Asia on her free time, and she tells such horrid stories of how the buses load and unload over there!

But what if there were queue lines like at Test Track and Soarin' for buses? Then people would know if they were going to get a seat, or opt to stand, and also queue up for a tiedown. Then one side of the bus would open up for everyone to get off, close back down, and then the other side would open for people to get in. Too hi-tech to happen right now (think how much fun it would be if the doors got stuck up in the air!) but I hope it could happen in the future. Imagine no need for ADA because everything would be accessible! I know we're just talking about physical needs here, of course.

 

[Talking Hands]

I must say that family is not a big issue with me as I travel with my husband or alone. Never have a big group now my kids are grown. I have seen huge groups get on with wheelchair guests and that would bug me as well. Another thing that bothers me is the people who try to claim to be with me and aren't. Sorry get in line with everyone else.
I am quite willing to wait if the line is full. I give myself plenty of time to get places, but it does bug me when I leave the time and still end up late because of drivers who refuse to load me when there is room. For me it is not the same as most guest who can go to any show in any order they want. Because I also am hard of hearing and prefer interpreted shows I am limited to on show time per show and only on the day that park is interpreted. Means a schedule to be followed. I miss a show it often means I don't see it until my next visit. We do more short trips as we live only 4 hours south of Disney

 

[toocherie]

I know this sentiment has probably been expressed elsewhere--but I just think it is so sad--and an indictment of what America has become--that people can actually even "think" to complain about whether a handicapped person gets on a bus first--let alone actually post those sentiments for everyone else to see.

To me it is just pure selfishness and so prevalent in our society today.

 

[SueM in MN]

I know this sentiment has probably been expressed elsewhere--but I just think it is so sad--and an indictment of what America has become--that people can actually even "think" to complain about whether a handicapped person gets on a bus first--let alone actually post those sentiments for everyone else to see.

To me it is just pure selfishness and so prevalent in our society today.

 

[bavaria]

I know this sentiment has probably been expressed elsewhere--but I just think it is so sad--and an indictment of what America has become--that people can actually even "think" to complain about whether a handicapped person gets on a bus first--let alone actually post those sentiments for everyone else to see.

I posted this elsewhere, and hesitate to criticize as I am not a citizen of America, however I certain that when the time comes that I am no longer as mobile as I am now (and that time will come), that I will not be travelling to WDW unless there is a significant change in attitude. I rarely ask for assistance, and the few times that I do I have seen the looks, or heard the comments, or read things here which pain me.

While other parts of the world may have less access, the mentality that people are faking or scamming, or 'getting something' just isn't expressed in the manner that I have witnessed here or in person at WDW in recent years. I get weary reading a lot of the threads here and the things which people post, expressing that their needs are more important than anyone else's.

This is not a competition, but until people realize that and stop putting their own desires first, the attitudes will not change.

I too am shocked at some of the posts I read and am sorry for those of you who have to endure such behaviour.

 

[cmwade77]

Ok, first I have to say equal access to the busses is impossible, until the same number of wheelchairs and ECVs can be loaded per bus as able bodied people. Equal access means that anyone in a wheelchair or ECV should have the same exact wait time as anyone that isn't. That would be equal access, so for now we settle for as close as we can get and many times that is 3-4 times longer than anyone else, so how can that be equal? Well, the only way that I can come up with to make it absolutely equal is to put barcodes on the GACs, when you get in line for something (a WDW bus, ride, whatever) your pass is scanned, then when you get on it is scanned again recording the time that you waited and comparing it to other people's wait time currently, then at the next attraction that you go to you would wait the normal standby time minus any "credit time" that you have before boarding immediately after that, if it means you board right away the stand by time would be deducted from your "credit"

Yes this would mean some major changes, i.e. a CM at all the bus stops at all times, GAC cards distributed by the resorts, scanners at all places that people wait, etc. but it would be the only way to completely ensure equal access and not make it unfair to either the person with a disability or to the avrage guest. Also to make is as accurate as possible stand by times would have to be reduced by about 30% when recording them, as this is about how much longer it takes for a person with a disability to get around than a person without.

In addition, GACs need to be accepted at the water parks(this would pose some issues as well, but I am sure a reasonable system could be accommodated), restaurants and shops.

Bottom line is I have timed things out with using a GAC compared to the posted stanby times at the end of the day I generally have waited in lines about 60 minutes longer than the average guest, according to the posted wait times, now my wait has been more comfortable with my needs, but I still waited longer, that is not equal access. Again, this is compared to posted times and those are usually inflated a fair amount, I know many times I asked about the 40 minute posted wait and people have told me the actually waited 20-25 minutes (timed it), so if that were taken into consideration then I have waited a lot longer (not counting times when rides broke down while in line either, as that would not be fair). In addition, waiting to get off of rides when they break down is a lot longer for us as well and for good safety reasons, I understand, but it is still less that we are able to do that day.

The above system could also work with FP, if you have one and come back during the window, hen they simply change it to compare to how long the FP line is currently waiting (again minus 30% for the extra time it takes to get to places).

 

[Schmeck]

Ok, first I have to say equal access to the busses is impossible, until the same number of wheelchairs and ECVs can be loaded per bus as able bodied people.

So, are you saying that for every ablebodied person at WDW, there is one in a wheelchair? That's the only way a 50-50 bus of tiedowns/seats and standing would be equal access.

Of course there is no way to get a precise ratio at a given time for wheelchair/ECV users at WDW vs those walking, but I'd give it about a 1:20 ratio, not 1:1. So, if there was 1 tiedown spot for every 20 seats, and then 1 for every 20 people standing, then it would be equal access. Having it 1:1 would be superior access, which is illegal under the ADA. Of course it's illegal the other way around too, not having enough tiedown spots available.

 

[BillSears]

So, are you saying that for every ablebodied person at WDW, there is one in a wheelchair? That's the only way a 50-50 bus of tiedowns/seats and standing would be equal access.

Of course there is no way to get a precise ratio at a given time for wheelchair/ECV users at WDW vs those walking, but I'd give it about a 1:20 ratio, not 1:1. So, if there was 1 tiedown spot for every 20 seats, and then 1 for every 20 people standing, then it would be equal access. Having it 1:1 would be superior access, which is illegal under the ADA. Of course it's illegal the other way around too, not having enough tiedown spots available.

I guess it all depends on what you consider equal. Equal access to me is no matter what combination of guests arrive at the bus stop all get to board up to the total capacity of the bus. So if 10 walking and 10 rolling people are at the bus stop equal access would mean they all get to board since a bus can hold more then 20 people.

 

[cmwade77]

So, are you saying that for every ablebodied person at WDW, there is one in a wheelchair? That's the only way a 50-50 bus of tiedowns/seats and standing would be equal access.

Of course there is no way to get a precise ratio at a given time for wheelchair/ECV users at WDW vs those walking, but I'd give it about a 1:20 ratio, not 1:1. So, if there was 1 tiedown spot for every 20 seats, and then 1 for every 20 people standing, then it would be equal access. Having it 1:1 would be superior access, which is illegal under the ADA. Of course it's illegal the other way around too, not having enough tiedown spots available.

No, what I am saying is that to ensure that those of us who have various needs that we wait no longer than everyone else there would have to be an equal number of spaces available (of course this is impractical). This would not be superior access, as those spaces could be used for those that don't have the needs when those that have needs don't need them. Again, equal access means an equal wait, period, not shorter or longer wait, right now there are longer waits on the whole, this is not equal access, now some attractions do offer shorter waits, so it at least balances out to some degree, but not enough, it is still longer on the whole.

 

[SueM in MN]

This would not be superior access, as those spaces could be used for those that don't have the needs when those that have needs don't need them.

As it is right now on the buses, if the spots for wheelchairs are not needed to put a wheelchair or ECV in, they are seats that can be used by people who have walked into the bus. When someone needs to use them for a wheelchair/ECV, the seats are flipped up and out of the way.
So, as it is now, 100% of the wheelchair spots would be useable by someone who can walk on the bus and sit on that seat. Since there are only 2 wheelchair/ECV tiedown spots on each bus, only a small percentage of the seats are useable by someone with a wheelchair/ECV.

If they made ALL the seats able to be flipped up like that for wheelchair access, they would be 100% accessible for people who can walk in and sit on them. Even though they could convert to wheelchair accessible spots, they might not be usable by someone with an ECV/wheelchair. If the bus was too full, they could not manouver into the space (even though there would probably be enough room for someone to walk in and sit in that same spot).

 

[cmwade77]

As it is right now on the buses, if the spots for wheelchairs are not needed to put a wheelchair or ECV in, they are seats that can be used by people who have walked into the bus. When someone needs to use them for a wheelchair/ECV, the seats are flipped up and out of the way.
So, as it is now, 100% of the wheelchair spots would be useable by someone who can walk on the bus and sit on that seat. Since there are only 2 wheelchair/ECV tiedown spots on each bus, only a small percentage of the seats are useable by someone with a wheelchair/ECV.

If they made ALL the seats able to be flipped up like that for wheelchair access, they would be 100% accessible for people who can walk in and sit on them. Even though they could convert to wheelchair accessible spots, they might not be usable by someone with an ECV/wheelchair. If the bus was too full, they could not manouver into the space (even though there would probably be enough room for someone to walk in and sit in that same spot).

I did say it wouldn't be feasible, my point is that waiting longer is not equal access, which is why in my previous post I mentioned that there should be a system in place to level out the wait times throughout the day, this would be fair to all those involved.

 

[Schmeck]

I guess it all depends on what you consider equal. Equal access to me is no matter what combination of guests arrive at the bus stop all get to board up to the total capacity of the bus. So if 10 walking and 10 rolling people are at the bus stop equal access would mean they all get to board since a bus can hold more then 20 people.

That was my vision with the full-opensided buses - that it wouldn't matter what accomodation you needed, everyone just got on at the same time. It was panned here as impractical.

Seems to me that there is a no-win attitude here. No matter what is suggested, unless those in wheelchairs and ECVs get on when they want, as many as they want, then it's no fair? Ablebodied people do not always get on the bus, sometimes have to wait for the next bus, etc, as well. Many times a half full bus went right past our bus stop as well.

 

[bookwormde]

The accommodations for ADA are never perfect and are based on what is practical and effective and accomplishable. Every accommodation I devised were always in the end a compromise, which at times inconvenienced non-disabled people and in unusual situations did not create the ultimate goal of equal access, but in the end were acceptable accommodations within the statute and its guidelines and rulings.

bookwormde

 

[seashoreCM]

By and large the accommodations for the "disabled" have to be reasonable and not require tremendous expenditures by the owner or operator or landlord.

Note that the playing field can be leveled somewhat by considering the total guest experience, for example a solution satisfactory to many might consist of reducing the wait time at rides and attractions to make up for an increased wait time for buses. Disney already has appropriate technologies here.

There are some buses (don't know if Disney has any) where the front door accommodates wheelchairs. Still, the first wheelchair tiedown has to be somewhat further back because there isn't enough room for tiedowns and the bus wheels and the aisle.

 

[BillSears]

One thing to consider is the whole tie down situation. I've riden standard buses here in Baltimore a couple of times and no tie downs are used. The busses kneel down and extend a ramp from the front door, I enter in the front and go to a spot near the front door of the bus. Then I lock my wheels and hold on to a pole... it is a ride all to itself. It could be that tie downs are required at Disney because the buses travel on higher speed roads.


E.T.A. I just checked out the MTA(Mass Transit Administration) website and it seems the buses are supposed to be equipped with tie downs of some sort. I don't remember ever seeing them and the bus driver didn't mention them. However it has been a few years since I've riden an MTA bus so things may have changed.

 

[heatherfeather24]

Does anyone know if WDW has ever considered some sort of paratransit system wherein there was a fleet of dedicated vehicles dispatched by radio (or some other viable means)? I understand that paratranist is not required by the ADA when the bus fleet is accessible, but it seems to me that a dedicated fleet could be particularly useful during high traffic hours (such as open, close, etc.) as a way to lessen wait times for everyone. As an aside, please don't take this thought to suggest an excuse for WDW to deny boarding of accessible busses to individuals using wheelchairs or ECVs, I'm envisioning it as more of a supplement.

 

[SueM in MN]

One thing to consider is the whole tie down situation. I've riden standard buses here in Baltimore a couple of times and no tie downs are used. The busses kneel down and extend a ramp from the front door, I enter in the front and go to a spot near the front door of the bus. Then I lock my wheels and hold on to a pole... it is a ride all to itself. It could be that tie downs are required at Disney because the buses travel on higher speed roads.


E.T.A. I just checked out the MTA(Mass Transit Administration) website and it seems the buses are supposed to be equipped with tie downs of some sort. I don't remember ever seeing them and the bus driver didn't mention them. However it has been a few years since I've riden an MTA bus so things may have changed.

Securement (i.e. tiedowns) are required by the ADA - it's in 49 CFR part 38 of the ADA, part d) almost at the end. The last part talks about seat belts.
The wheelchair tiedowns are meant more to make sure the wheelchairs are secured down to the same extent as the regular bus seats are secured, from what I understand.
We actually made a complaint that involved just this situation to one of the car rental places that use a shuttle bus. The driver deployed the ramp, I helped DD wheel on and we asked where the tiedowns were. The driver said just to park anywhere and lock DD's brakes. I said, "I don't think so. We are going on the highway at highway speeds." DD and I got off and waited while my DH took the shuttle bus to pick up the rental car and come back for us.

There are some buses (don't know if Disney has any) where the front door accommodates wheelchairs. Still, the first wheelchair tiedown has to be somewhat further back because there isn't enough room for tiedowns and the bus wheels and the aisle.

As far as I know, Disney does not have any of the wheelchair accessible buses that load at the front.
Unless they replaced all their buses with those, I think it would be rather confusing for guests. Also, the lowered floor buses that are some of the newer ones actually have the front few seats over the front wheels.

Does anyone know if WDW has ever considered some sort of paratransit system wherein there was a fleet of dedicated vehicles dispatched by radio (or some other viable means)? I understand that paratranist is not required by the ADA when the bus fleet is accessible, but it seems to me that a dedicated fleet could be particularly useful during high traffic hours (such as open, close, etc.) as a way to lessen wait times for everyone. As an aside, please don't take this thought to suggest an excuse for WDW to deny boarding of accessible busses to individuals using wheelchairs or ECVs, I'm envisioning it as more of a supplement.

They don't have a fleet of paratransit buses; they do have a couple.
It appears they are used most for situations where a group of 3 of more people are traveling with wheelchairs/ECVs.
We rode one once. I don't remember the particulars, but do remember it involved a long wait at a park to get back to our resort, a couple of buses which could not take us (back in the days where not all buses had wheelchair spots). It also involved several other passengers with a wheelchair.