Born Again Christians Thread-No Bashing please

[Buckalew11]

I think what people aren't understanding is this-- You don't accept Christ as your savior and then go about doing wrong because you ared saved and safe. You accept Christ as your savior and go around trying to do good. It just is that that "doing good" isn't what gets you into Heaven--it is Christ's actions on the cross and afterward and your belief and acceptence of that. Again, there is no "free ticket" to doing wrong things.

BACs sin and ask for forgiveness also. Maybe they aren't doing it through the priest in the church but they are to still ask for forgiveness when they do wrong. We believe our actions have consequences also. But I don't think because I sin today that my consequence will be Hell if I die. I thought we discussed purgatory here before and it was said that Catholics aren't really taught that anymore?

In keeping track of the good and the bad, I know what I meant what I said it was this: If I could lose my salvation because I sinned and wasn't forgiven for that sin, it'd be hard to know where I stood before God and I'd worry myself sick about "Yes, I am. No, I'm not." What if you died suddenly of a heart attack and were in the state of sin?! What if you hadn't had time to ask forgiveness from the priest or even by yourself from God--do you think you'd go to Hell or, less worse, purgatory? If that was the case, why wouldn't you worry about that?
Yes, I believe that all Christians should try to be good people. But not because that action gets us to Heaven. And I don't think someone who claims to know Christ as their savior and walks around doing terrible actions and treating others badly is who they think they are in Christ. You just can't do that.

 

[dcentity2000]

I have two follow-up scenarios for you:

1. A child is born in Africa to a remote tribe that has not yet even heard of Jesus. The child grows up, believing in the religion of his tribe; he leads as good a life as he can. Where does he go upon death?
2. A child is strictly bought up in an alternative religion that does not feature Jesus. He hears of Christianity, but his access to it is limited and the concept ridiculed by his family. He is strong in faith as to his family's religion and leads as good a life as he can. Where does he go upon death?

Just to make it even more interesting, if either of the two's religion features a central deity, would worship to said deity be construed by the Lord as worship unto him?

______________________________________________________

For the record, I leave my opinions below, based on Progressive Christianity; these views are hotly debated and as such may not be representative, but here goes:

1. The first child goes to heaven. The Lord is kind and merciful; it was not the child's fault that news of Jesus had not swept to him.
2. The second child probably goes to heaven. The child had shown loyalty to his family and to religion as far as was permitted. The Lord, being merciful and just, knows that human beings, being imperfect, are vulnerable to their surroundings and their upbringings.

And if they worshipped a different deity? I think that God would be the one to receive the worship, if the deity was all powerful like He is. Differences in name, I feel, do not trouble Him.



Rich::

 

[live4christp1]

Sorry?
I wasn't debating , I was correcting an incorrect (and offensive) statement that someone put in their post.

And before you move me on, why isn't my question considered "genuine" anyway?

ford family

Yesterday I apologized for posting that and it being offensive and admitted it was in bad taste on such a vastly read/diverse board.

Later in the evening I was thinking about those lyrics and I see what your point is but I think the authors point was not saying that there were no atheist that had contributed to society because he says atheism. I think what he is saying is that atheism doesn't believe in a higher power thus they don't have a view of God as we do. In the statement creating a masterpiece I think he is refering to the creation as he had been describing it earlier in the song and how it is a great masterpiece that God created but since atheism doesn't acknowledge a God it can't make that claim. To the never drying a tear part I think he is refering to the belief of Christians as God as our comforter and we are told that one day in heaven we will wipe every tear from our eye. And lastly about healing a fatal disease, we know Him as the Great Physician and the ultimate healer. I don't think he was saying that there were not any doctors that were atheist that help people every day.

Not trying to start this up all over again. But I really believe that was the point he was trying to make.......not that he was saying that people who are atheist make no contribution to the world at all and I certainly don't believe that.

 

[live4christp1]

I used to be a post-tribber, now a pre-tribber. I have taken a Revelation class in Bible College where I attend and have viewed all of the beliefs about pre, mid and post. Pre makes the only sense from a Bible perspective. The other two make the immanence of Christ a lie (which we know is not) and would also make "no man knows the day or the hour" a lie because a post-trib rapture would allow you to know the exact day. The Desocration would give it away.

If you want to read a good book that is very factual and not bias or finger pointing, I suggest The Revelation of Jesus Christ by John Walvoord.

As far as seeing Jesus on a white horse in the clouds, you will see it because you and I and all other children of God will be with Him.

What an amazing sight.......
Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Even now, come Lord Jesus

 

[saucymb]

I think what people aren't understanding is this-- You don't accept Christ as your savior and then go about doing wrong because you ared saved and safe. You accept Christ as your savior and go around trying to do good. It just is that that "doing good" isn't what gets you into Heaven--it is Christ's actions on the cross and afterward and your belief and acceptence of that. Again, there is no "free ticket" to doing wrong things.

BACs sin and ask for forgiveness also. Maybe they aren't doing it through the priest in the church but they are to still ask for forgiveness when they do wrong. We believe our actions have consequences also. But I don't think because I sin today that my consequence will be Hell if I die. I thought we discussed purgatory here before and it was said that Catholics aren't really taught that anymore?

In keeping track of the good and the bad, I know what I meant what I said it was this: If I could lose my salvation because I sinned and wasn't forgiven for that sin, it'd be hard to know where I stood before God and I'd worry myself sick about "Yes, I am. No, I'm not." What if you died suddenly of a heart attack and were in the state of sin?! What if you hadn't had time to ask forgiveness from the priest or even by yourself from God--do you think you'd go to Hell or, less worse, purgatory? If that was the case, why wouldn't you worry about that?
Yes, I believe that all Christians should try to be good people. But not because that action gets us to Heaven. And I don't think someone who claims to know Christ as their savior and walks around doing terrible actions and treating others badly is who they think they are in Christ. You just can't do that.

I agree with you, Buckalew11.

When someone is truly saved, Jesus will live in their heart. Although they will still be tempted to sin, and will commit sin, they will strive to follow Jesus' teachings and live a pure life. It will obviously not be perfect! But Jesus creates in me a clean heart, and renews my spirit, and therefore living in sin would not be possible. Some Christians will stumble, and lose their way, but if they were truly saved, they will be in heaven; some, however, may not have been truly saved to begin with.

 

[live4christp1]

Chonda is a woman (think Shanda) she is a Christian Comediane

Very funny too. If you ever get a chance to see her....GO!!!!! You will laugh & cry. She has a heart wrenching story but tells it so beautifully.

 

[Aidensmom]

Yesterday I apologized for posting that and it being offensive and admitted it was in bad taste on such a vastly read/diverse board.

Later in the evening I was thinking about those lyrics and I see what your point is but I think the authors point was not saying that there were no atheist that had contributed to society because he says atheism. I think what he is saying is that atheism doesn't believe in a higher power thus they don't have a view of God as we do. In the statement creating a masterpiece I think he is refering to the creation as he had been describing it earlier in the song and how it is a great masterpiece that God created but since atheism doesn't acknowledge a God it can't make that claim. To the never drying a tear part I think he is refering to the belief of Christians as God as our comforter and we are told that one day in heaven we will wipe every tear from our eye. And lastly about healing a fatal disease, we know Him as the Great Physician and the ultimate healer. I don't think he was saying that there were not any doctors that were atheist that help people every day.

Not trying to start this up all over again. But I really believe that was the point he was trying to make.......not that he was saying that people who are atheist make no contribution to the world at all and I certainly don't believe that.

I actually took it in a similar manner. It says "atheism" never....not an "atheist" never. I kind of took it that whenever anyone, whatever their religion or lack thereof, creates a masterpiece or heals a fatal disease, etc, that it is actually God that has given the people the gifts to do these things, whether or not they acknowledge it.

That being said, however, a song, like any work of art, is pretty open to interpretation, so I understand people interpreting it more literally also. And I guess there are those that would still be offended by the idea that God gave them the ability to do something.

 

[bytheblood]

I think what people aren't understanding is this-- You don't accept Christ as your savior and then go about doing wrong because you ared saved and safe. You accept Christ as your savior and go around trying to do good. It just is that that "doing good" isn't what gets you into Heaven--it is Christ's actions on the cross and afterward and your belief and acceptence of that. Again, there is no "free ticket" to doing wrong things.

Very nicely said.

BACs sin and ask for forgiveness also. Maybe they aren't doing it through the priest in the church but they are to still ask for forgiveness when they do wrong. We believe our actions have consequences also. But I don't think because I sin today that my consequence will be Hell if I die.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

I thought we discussed purgatory here before and it was said that Catholics aren't really taught that anymore?

The catholic church still teaches purgatory. The pope stands firmly on catholics having to pay for their sins after death. (referred to as purification)

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2N.HTM

My husband's family is catholic and the younger ones in CCD are taught purgatory.

 

[RickinNYC]

I think it would be exhausting to always wonder if my deeds are good enough- is this going to get me to heaven? Ok, I am good today. Ooops-I messed up and sinned-now I am in trouble, going to hell. OK, helped a lady across the street with her groceries-wooohoo heaven-here I come!.........
I am so glad to know that I am going to heaven. Not because I am perfect and sinless-but becaue God is good, Jesus paid my price. Not leading a pure life, doing good deeds, tithing, helping the needy.
Jesus is the ONLY way to Heaven (John 3:16)

AuntieM03-I bought that book for my dad for Christmas a couple of years ago, He is a big Lord of the Rings fan, and a stumbling christian! He really enjoyed it.

Given the fact that I have managed volunteers at non-profits for several years now, I find your sentiment rather sad. I know it's not only your own belief but a belief that many have, so this isn't an observation personally directed at you but to the community at large that believes as you do. I see men and women, old & young, of all races, religions, orientations, etc... doing amazing work helping those less fortunate. I see them running movie marathons for children who couldn't normally afford to go to the theater. I watch as others run art therapy programs for homeless adults with mental disabilities. I see yet others run reading groups for the illiterate. Preparing and serving food, painting shelters, creating murals, providing free medical exams, or simply holding hands with someone just because they need a little personal contact and comfort. Working alongside these people is an honor.

I am fortunate, and yes, blessed, to have the job that I do that I can meet so many incredible people who give so much of their time, their lives and their heart to the chronically homeless. To think that because they might not be born again, thus not allowed into Heaven, is simply wrong. Your ideologies are one of many hundreds if not thousands in the world. People accept God and Christ not just through prayer, reading the Bible, witnessing and convicting, confessing and tithing, but through their actions.

 

[ead79]

bytheblood, is the book you mentioned, The Revelation of Jesus Christ by John Walvoord, a book that discusses pre, mid, and post-trib? I am very interested in hearing different perspectives, though I myself lean pre-trib.

 

[live4christp1]

Is anyone else amazed by the way God is involved in even the little things in our lives, things we sometimes see as a hinderance or a delay.

One that comes to mind for me is during the school year DS and I started to leave (takes us about 15/20 minutes) and there was an oh so slow moving train that we had to wait on. (You have to cross over a double RR crossing coming up our driveway) We are usually pushing it right to the minute and any delay can mean tardy for DS. I was so irritated as we had actually been running early this morning and now we would be late. After we got of the interstate we came upon 2 different car accidents involving more than 2 cars in each along our route and it just made me give pause and say thank you Lord, even though I don't always see, you do. You see, if it hadn't been for that train making us late......we could have very likely been right in the midst of one of those accidents.

Anyone else want to share a similar experience?

 

[saucymb]

I have two follow-up scenarios for you:

1. A child is born in Africa to a remote tribe that has not yet even heard of Jesus. The child grows up, believing in the religion of his tribe; he leads as good a life as he can. Where does he go upon death?
2. A child is strictly bought up in an alternative religion that does not feature Jesus. He hears of Christianity, but his access to it is limited and the concept ridiculed by his family. He is strong in faith as to his family's religion and leads as good a life as he can. Where does he go upon death?

Just to make it even more interesting, if either of the two's religion features a central deity, would worship to said deity be construed by the Lord as worship unto him?

______________________________________________________

For the record, I leave my opinions below, based on Progressive Christianity; these views are hotly debated and as such may not be representative, but here goes:

1. The first child goes to heaven. The Lord is kind and merciful; it was not the child's fault that news of Jesus had not swept to him.
2. The second child probably goes to heaven. The child had shown loyalty to his family and to religion as far as was permitted. The Lord, being merciful and just, knows that human beings, being imperfect, are vulnerable to their surroundings and their upbringings.

And if they worshipped a different deity? I think that God would be the one to receive the worship, if the deity was all powerful like He is. Differences in name, I feel, do not trouble Him.



Rich::

DH and I were discussing this topic over the weekend, and we consulted the Bible, then went online to find out what other Christians were saying.

The Bible clearly states that the only way to get to heaven is by Accepting Christ as Lord and Saviour. One must understand and believe the gospel. This sounds harsh, as you are correct in that there are people who will have never even heard of the Bible or Jesus.

Acts 17:30 says "Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent (31) because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead."

I take that to mean that there was a time when God was tolerant to people's ignorance, but that since Jesus rose from the dead, the only way to heaven now is to believe and accept Jesus as Saviour.

As harsh as that sounds, I believe it to be the truth. It should motivate even more Christians to go out and minister to lost souls.

I will say that prior to my research over the weekend, I was of the mind that people ignorant to the Bible would go to heaven if they somehow acknowledged a "higher being" by looking around them at creation and nature and reconizing the majesty of it all, and that it must have been created by God, whether or not they knew that name. But having re-read some of the gospel, I know now that a person must understand and accept the gospel.

Lastly, regarding your scenario, you were saying "child" and "children". I don't know if you were referring to what happens to children when they die, but I will give you my understanding here. There is an age of accountability, which is when a child is able to understand the plan of Salvation. For some children that is very young, say 4-5 years old. For others, it is older, 8-10 years old. It depends on the child. If they have reached their personal age of accountability, and have accepted Jesus, then they will go to heaven. This concept also applies to people who have various degrees of mental retardation, or who have other physical disabilities which prevent them from understanding.

Oh, and I know not all Christians will agree with all that I have just written, and I am still learning about this topic as well, so please if anyone has more insight about this subject, I would love to hear it.

 

[live4christp1]

On Turning Point (Dr. David Jeremiah) today he is reading and speaking on Revelations Chapter 2, I think the name of the series is called Escape the Coming Night.....very good.

Any way, the reason I am posting this is that they are offering a free resource called The Route 66 Road Map......I think it is a kind of devotional guide. All you have to do to get one is write one of the address or call and request the Route 66 Road Map. They have offices in USA, UK, and Canada so I have listed all three below.

Telephone (800) 580-0863
Fax (619) 258-3636
Mail P.O. Box 3838
San Diego, CA 92163
Email info@turningpointradio.org
Web Sites www.turningpointonline.org


Turning Point in Canada

Turning Point Ministries
C/O World Outreach Communications
PO Box 75300
White Rock BC V4B 5L4
1-800-946-4300


Turning Point in the United Kingdom

Turning Point Ministries
C/O Trans World Radio
PO Box 2858
Bath BA2 5XN
United Kingdom

 

[live4christp1]

Anyone else listen to Christian radio? If yes, what do you listen to......do you feel it benefits you? If yes, how?

When driving I usually listen to J103 or WAYFM which for the most part is just Contemporary Christian Music. At work I listen to Moody Radio via WMBW 88.9 (sometimes WDYN which is the station affiliated with DS school but not often), some music, lots of teaching. The music on the drive to and from work gives me an opportunity to worship God, gets me going in the morning and helps me relax on the drive home. The teaching I hear via WMBW has helped me grow so much. If a speaker is speaking on something and I don't agree, I always make a note of the scripture he is referencing and go back and look at it myself when I get home, there have been lots of times I was wrong in my thinking.

Remembering back in 1997 when my dad's aorta ruptured (I was expecting DS in a couple of months) after the surgery and all, they finally had him in ICU and we got to see the doctors etc.....which gave us the worst case scenario. My mom and my DH wouldn't let me stay at the hospital all night and when we started home the song by Rich Mullins "Awesome God" came on and I knew that no matter what, my dad would be all right.

So many times it seems that whatever I am facing, struggling with, etc....I turn on the radio and there is a song or someone speaking and it is as if they are speaking directly at me.

Coincidence.....I don't think so, I believe it is the ever present hand of God.....showing me still again how much He is involved in my life.

 

[live4christp1]

DH and I were discussing this topic over the weekend, and we consulted the Bible, then went online to find out what other Christians were saying.

The Bible clearly states that the only way to get to heaven is by Accepting Christ as Lord and Saviour. One must understand and believe the gospel. This sounds harsh, as you are correct in that there are people who will have never even heard of the Bible or Jesus.

Acts 17:30 says "Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent (31) because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead."

I take that to mean that there was a time when God was tolerant to people's ignorance, but that since Jesus rose from the dead, the only way to heaven now is to believe and accept Jesus as Saviour.

As harsh as that sounds, I believe it to be the truth. It should motivate even more Christians to go out and minister to lost souls.

I will say that prior to my research over the weekend, I was of the mind that people ignorant to the Bible would go to heaven if they somehow acknowledged a "higher being" by looking around them at creation and nature and reconizing the majesty of it all, and that it must have been created by God, whether or not they knew that name. But having re-read some of the gospel, I know now that a person must understand and accept the gospel.

Lastly, regarding your scenario, you were saying "child" and "children". I don't know if you were referring to what happens to children when they die, but I will give you my understanding here. There is an age of accountability, which is when a child is able to understand the plan of Salvation. For some children that is very young, say 4-5 years old. For others, it is older, 8-10 years old. It depends on the child. If they have reached their personal age of accountability, and have accepted Jesus, then they will go to heaven. This concept also applies to people who have various degrees of mental retardation, or who have other physical disabilities which prevent them from understanding.

Oh, and I know not all Christians will agree with all that I have just written, and I am still learning about this topic as well, so please if anyone has more insight about this subject, I would love to hear it.

Just wanted to say that I agree with you, especially in regards to what you posted about children. Very nicely stated!

 

[cardaway]

Is anyone else amazed by the way God is involved in even the little things in our lives, things we sometimes see as a hinderance or a delay.

One that comes to mind for me is during the school year DS and I started to leave (takes us about 15/20 minutes) and there was an oh so slow moving train that we had to wait on. (You have to cross over a double RR crossing coming up our driveway) We are usually pushing it right to the minute and any delay can mean tardy for DS. I was so irritated as we had actually been running early this morning and now we would be late. After we got of the interstate we came upon 2 different car accidents involving more than 2 cars in each along our route and it just made me give pause and say thank you Lord, even though I don't always see, you do. You see, if it hadn't been for that train making us late......we could have very likely been right in the midst of one of those accidents.

Anyone else want to share a similar experience?

Very curious here.

Are you trying to say that God kept you away from those accidents? If so, how does that equate to the people who were in this accidents? Does it mean they had a lesser relationship with God?

I like to think I understand a lot of things, but how people reason that they were watched over in favor of others, given something extra to win the game, and even win the lottery, totally escapes me.

 

[live4christp1]

Very curious here.

Are you trying to say that God kept you away from those accidents? If so, how does that equate to the people who were in this accidents? Does it mean they had a lesser relationship with God?

I like to think I understand a lot of things, but how people reason that they were watched over in favor of others, given something extra to win the game, and even win the lottery, totally escapes me.

No that is not what I am saying at all......as I have no clue as to who those people were and thus no idea of what their relationship with God is. I do think that God can put His hand (something I pray for daily for my family) of protection around us. In no way am I trying to state that bad things won't happen to me because I am a Christian. If I am in an accident I don't think oh well, I must have done something to make God angry and he wasn't looking out for me today. Just think that He is in control and I'm sure He has protected me more times than I even know. I don't consider that to be more favored than any other person.

 

[Miss Jasmine]

Very curious here.

Are you trying to say that God kept you away from those accidents? If so, how does that equate to the people who were in this accidents? Does it mean they had a lesser relationship with God?

I like to think I understand a lot of things, but how people reason that they were watched over in favor of others, given something extra to win the game, and even win the lottery, totally escapes me.

I am curious as well. For example, when Hurricane Frances and Hurricane Jeanne were bearing down on my area, I never prayed for the hurricanes to change path. I always prayed that everyone in the hurricanes' paths would be kept safe, homes and businesses protected. I just don't get the idea of "well gee I was protected, too bad for those other people." I think sometimes people read too much into things.

 

[Miss Jasmine]

As for Christian Radio...I listen to Positive Hits 88.3. Here is its website (you can listen over the internet): http://www.zradio.org/

 

[binny]

Very funny too. If you ever get a chance to see her....GO!!!!! You will laugh & cry. She has a heart wrenching story but tells it so beautifully.

She was a Nazarene PK just like I am and I went to see her with a group of friends EVERYTHING in her set just hit home with me. ( the dress length, Catholic, Baptist, and then Nazarene!) I was laughing so hard and I was about 7 months pregnant my friend swore I was going to go into labour right then and there


It was just hilarious!!!