Born Again Christians Thread-No Bashing please

[WDWHound]

I have a genuine question. I have stayed away from this thread (other than the occasional lurk) out of respect for the born-again sect to have their own space and to fellowship with one another. But I am curious...

Why do you have faith in something that (IMO) exists mainly as lore that has been handed down through the generations? I honestly don't mean demean your faith; I really am curious. BTW, I have faith as well, just not in the conventional teachings and not in an afterlife.

I wasn't around for the discussion, but I wanted to say thank you for the respectful spirit of your inquiry. It seems from your responses that you understand the fundemental nature of what it is to have faith, which is usually the hard part of my personal beliefs to explain to anyone. The experience of faith gives us a common ground for understanding, even if our understanding of the nature of the source of that faith differs. Perhaps using that common ground, I can give you sense of why I believe what I do.

Regarding the heaven and the afterlife, myn own personal beleif in it comes from 2 seperate experiences. First, my personal experience of God is that I in the presence of the eternal when I come into his presence. Thats a tough thing to describe, but the sense is there and very real. Think about how you experience the power and love that you have found. I beleive experience at least some of the nature of God in similar ways. Its very much and experiential type of thing. That does not make it less powerful or real, but it makes it very difficult to put into words. Its is through this and the experience of God's love (I beleive you have already felt the love part) that I get just a glimpse of what heavan must be.

The second reason I beleive in heaven is a but more striaght forward. Jesus clearly promises that those who know him and follow him will join him in heavan. I have found, by litterally testing it out, than any promise Jesus makes is true. Every single time I have put my trust in God's word, he has come through. This extends from simple things like tithing to more complex thing like the power of repentance and acceptance of his forgiveness. So, it stands to reason that if God has held to every promise he has made to me so far, I can count on him keeping his promises in the future. Quite simply, he has earned my faith and trust.


So you see, its more than lore and story, at least for me. Its experiencing a God who is eternal and loving. Its trusting in that which have proven itself trust worthy. In many respects, it starts out as almost blind faith in story and lore, but the path that begins there leads to something much deeper, stronger and concrete.

I wish you all the best sir. Thank you for your thoughtful questions and for sharing your experiences with us here.

 

[ead79]

mick67, I think you’ve received some wonderful responses from several folks on this thread. Here’s my story:

I believe because of my experiences. I have experienced God in a personal way, and because of this I know He is real. Just as others have said, it is difficult to explain personal experience, yet it makes it no less true.

I grew up in a Christian home, so I was exposed to Christ at a very young age. The time then came for me to choose if I believed what I had been taught, and I made the decision that I do. I accepted Christ as my Savior at a young age, so I have lived most of my life as a Christian. I have been through some difficult times, and I felt the very real presence of God during those times. He helped me through them in a way that made me understand all the more deeply how real He is and how he wants a relationship with each of us. I have also had some experiences that have shown Scripture to be true in my life. Some of these experiences have been with other believers, and some have been from those who do not believe. God has made a very real, tangible difference in my life.

I understand that you see Christianity as essentially identical to any other belief system in that you feel they were invented by man to help explain the unexplainable and to give us hope for an afterlife. I guess the next logical question would be why do I think my beliefs are any different from any others. I believe that most other religions involve mankind trying to reach God through things like good works, prayers, ceremonies, etc. I believe that Christianity is how God reached down to us and offered us the gift of salvation. We can’t earn it, it was freely given to us. God took 99 steps down toward me, and all I had to do was take one step of faith toward Him. My answer to this really boils down to a phrase from a common hymn. I think it sums it up pretty well, despite how simple the phrase itself is: “You ask me how I know He lives. He lives within my heart.”

 

[live4christp1]

Wow, so much since I last posted, hard to catch up. Just wanted to comment on the nice dicussion that took place last night. This is what I feel.

From the time that God created Adam, His desire was to have fellowship with man. He spoke with Adam and also with Eve in the garden. We aren't told how much time passed before the temptation in the garden but after Adam & Eve both at of the fruit this is what we read;

Genesis 3
v8. And they heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God among the trees of the garden. (I am sure this wasn't the first time God walked in the garden)
v9. Then the Lord God called to Adam and said to him, "Where are you?" (He already knew this BTW)
*** If you read on there is a whole dialoge there with God, Adam & Eve

Genesis 4
V6. So the Lord said to Cain, "Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen?"
*** Followed by more conversation between God & Cain

These are followed by many others, Noah, Abraham (Abram), Moses. The Lord even came and spoke with Moses in the tabernacle.

God has always pursued a relationship with us. Where does the still small voice come from that we hear that prompts us in right & wrong? It isn't something that can be learned, its there. How about sinful nature......it isn't something we go out of our way to teach our child but they have it and act on it. Also, to me, creation speaks volumes of God......the complexity of the universe.....how if anything where off just by a bit we would be too close to the sun and burn, or to far away and freeze. IMO, none of that could happen just by chance.

This is one of my favorite songs and speaks what I am trying to say, better than I can say myself:

There is a God - By: Carman
93 million miles from the blistering surafce of the sun stands the planet earth. A rotating sphere perfectly suspended in the center of the universe. The ultimate creation from an infinate mind. An unbelievably intricate complex design. A supernatural testimony, an irrefutable sign that there is a God.

The size, position and angle of the earth is a scientific phenomenon to see. A few degrees closer to the sun we'd disintegrate, a few degrees further we'd freeze. The axis of the earth is titled at a perfect 23 degree angle and it's no mistake that it is. This allows equal global distribution to the rays of the sun making it possible for the food chain to exist.

Or take for example the combination of nitrogen and oxygen in the atmosphere we breathe every day. It just happens to be the exact mix that life needs to prosper, it doesn't happen on any other planet that way.

You see, the Bible says the invisible things of God are seen through His creation, to believe this is not err. If there's a design, there's a designer, if there's a plan, there's a planner and if there's a miracle, there is a God.

CHORUS:
There is a hope, there is a light
There is an answer to all answers
There is a flame that burns in the night
And I know, I know, I know there is a God

The Scripture says the heavens decalre the glory of God and the skies proclaim the work of His hands. If we allow our minds to drink in all the truth that surrounds the truth that just surrounds us, creation itself with help us understand.

Did you know the moon controls the tides, it's the maid that cleans the oceans. Even the waves don't crash the shores in vain. The tides drag impurities from the depths of the sea, it's nature's constrant recycling chain.

It simply boggles the mind to think that the stars will rotate with such exact precision that it's true. That the atomic clock with an error factor of less than three seconds per millenium is set by the way they move.

Though they silently orbit, the sun, the moon, the stars are like celestial evangelists above. Who circle the earth every 24 hours shouting in every language that there is a God. Atheism is the wedge under the foundation of our faith, trying to topple our relationship with Christ. When the fool said in his heart, there is no God, he rejects the truth God painted on the canvas of the night. Atheism has never created an artistic masterpiece, never healed a fatal disease or calmed a fear. Atheism has never still given answers to our existence, peace to a troubled mind or even dried a tear.

For it's God who created heaven and earth and flung the stars in space and breathed in the handful of dirt and it became a man. It's God who sits on the circle of the earth and measures the mountains in a scale, and holds the seven seas in the palm of His hand. It's God who sent His only begotten Son to the cross of Calvary to save our souls from Hell and the grave. It's God who creates, God who delivers, God who heals and who is worthy of a thunderous ovation of praise.

CHORUS(2x)

There is a God, there is a God
And I know, I know, I know there is a God

 

[Grandma Bear]

Wow, so much since I last posted, hard to catch up. Just wanted to comment on the nice dicussion that took place last night. This is what I feel.

From the time that God created Adam, His desire was to have fellowship with man. He spoke with Adam and also with Eve in the garden. We aren't told how much time passed before the temptation in the garden but after Adam & Eve both at of the fruit this is what we read;

Genesis 3
v8. And they heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God among the trees of the garden. (I am sure this wasn't the first time God walked in the garden)
v9. Then the Lord God called to Adam and said to him, "Where are you?" (He already knew this BTW)
*** If you read on there is a whole dialoge there with God, Adam & Eve

Genesis 4
V6. So the Lord said to Cain, "Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen?"
*** Followed by more conversation between God & Cain

These are followed by many others, Noah, Abraham (Abram), Moses. The Lord even came and spoke with Moses in the tabernacle.

God has always pursued a relationship with us. Where does the still small voice come from that we hear that prompts us in right & wrong? It isn't something that can be learned, its there. How about sinful nature......it isn't something we go out of our way to teach our child but they have it and act on it. Also, to me, creation speaks volumes of God......the complexity of the universe.....how if anything where off just by a bit we would be too close to the sun and burn, or to far away and freeze. IMO, none of that could happen just by chance.

This is one of my favorite songs and speaks what I am trying to say, better than I can say myself:

There is a God - By: Carman
93 million miles from the blistering surafce of the sun stands the planet earth. A rotating sphere perfectly suspended in the center of the universe. The ultimate creation from an infinate mind. An unbelievably intricate complex design. A supernatural testimony, an irrefutable sign that there is a God.

The size, position and angle of the earth is a scientific phenomenon to see. A few degrees closer to the sun we'd disintegrate, a few degrees further we'd freeze. The axis of the earth is titled at a perfect 23 degree angle and it's no mistake that it is. This allows equal global distribution to the rays of the sun making it possible for the food chain to exist.

Or take for example the combination of nitrogen and oxygen in the atmosphere we breathe every day. It just happens to be the exact mix that life needs to prosper, it doesn't happen on any other planet that way.

You see, the Bible says the invisible things of God are seen through His creation, to believe this is not err. If there's a design, there's a designer, if there's a plan, there's a planner and if there's a miracle, there is a God.

CHORUS:
There is a hope, there is a light
There is an answer to all answers
There is a flame that burns in the night
And I know, I know, I know there is a God

The Scripture says the heavens decalre the glory of God and the skies proclaim the work of His hands. If we allow our minds to drink in all the truth that surrounds the truth that just surrounds us, creation itself with help us understand.

Did you know the moon controls the tides, it's the maid that cleans the oceans. Even the waves don't crash the shores in vain. The tides drag impurities from the depths of the sea, it's nature's constrant recycling chain.

It simply boggles the mind to think that the stars will rotate with such exact precision that it's true. That the atomic clock with an error factor of less than three seconds per millenium is set by the way they move.

Though they silently orbit, the sun, the moon, the stars are like celestial evangelists above. Who circle the earth every 24 hours shouting in every language that there is a God. Atheism is the wedge under the foundation of our faith, trying to topple our relationship with Christ. When the fool said in his heart, there is no God, he rejects the truth God painted on the canvas of the night. Atheism has never created an artistic masterpiece, never healed a fatal disease or calmed a fear. Atheism has never still given answers to our existence, peace to a troubled mind or even dried a tear.

For it's God who created heaven and earth and flung the stars in space and breathed in the handful of dirt and it became a man. It's God who sits on the circle of the earth and measures the mountains in a scale, and holds the seven seas in the palm of His hand. It's God who sent His only begotten Son to the cross of Calvary to save our souls from Hell and the grave. It's God who creates, God who delivers, God who heals and who is worthy of a thunderous ovation of praise.

CHORUS(2x)

There is a God, there is a God
And I know, I know, I know there is a God

I agree! What a beatiful way to express it.

 

[JoyG]

I love that Carman song! I have it on my Ipod right now!

Joy

 

[Albertan mom]

Great song.

God is all around, all it takes to believe that is to look around
Only God could make something as beautiful as a rainbow.
Look at a zebras stipes, a leopards spots, or a peacocks feathers. They could have been just all one plain old color. God made them beautiful!
Little things like how a butterfly comes to be. How a beaver knows how to build a dam. How bees know how to make honey.
When I see beautiful things around me, I am thankful to God.
Things that science can't explain away, I am amazed by God!

 

[live4christp1]

http://www.leadingtheway.org/

God is so awesome to me and shows me everyday how He is concerned with each aspect of our life. Here we have been discussing faith and there is an excellent message on my radio right now by Michael Yossef about faith.


Also Jenny and I were discussing some Jewish beliefs and the covenant yesterday and this morning guess what David Jeremiah spoke on, the covenant.

I think you can listen online at the line above or here www.wmbw.org

 

[caitycaity]

i feel like i should almost apologize for posting here, so i do apologize in advance if my presence on this thread is unwelcome. that said, i have been reading this thread with great interest since page 1 and feel the need to address a few points.

I may be a crazy Christian on an Internet BB to them but Jenz and others are real people to me and I really don't want to be the one responsible for turning them off.

brenda, i have to say that you, hound, elisabeth, and many others have been nothing but kind to me since the first day i started posting here. all of you have really helped me on my spiritual journey, and i have always enjoyed conversing with you. anyways, just wanted to give some .

The usual theory attached to Jesus (mainly by agnostics and atheists) is that He was a schizophrenic suffering from delusions and hallucinations.

i am not sure why you have decided this is the "usual theory" among agnostics and atheists. i am an atheist and i do not know anyone who believes this. i certainly do not. as a matter of fact, your post is the first time i have ever seen anyone (who was not a nutjob) give that kind of idea creedence. when hound posts that there are misunderstandings on both sides...i believe this is a prime example of that. i do realize however that some of you do not wish to understand people like me's perspectives, and that is fine with me.

also, just ftr, i do not mind being prayed for. however, i do agree with a previous poster that context is everything in terms of people interpreting the manner in which prayers are offered.

i sincerely hope i have not interrupted your thread too much.

 

[live4christp1]

caitycaity - I don't think you have to apologize.

To me this is a great way of witnessing and it doesn't bother or offend me to answer questions posted by non-believers or even those of different faiths.


Fellow BAC, I think there are probably more people than we realize who come here to read these threads and our responses. Lots of people who would probably never ever enter the doors of a church......we need to remember this in our approach to them. Christians (IMO) have long been blown out of proportion by distorted opinions and views of those on the outside and the media, we are often prelabeled and prejudged and viewed by what their other experiences with BAC have been. Lets not add to that distorted world view with angry, hateful responses. It is possible to state the Word of God without beating someone over the head with the Bible.

We can't force our religion on anyone and we can't make them believe it, accept it, or agree with it. But IMO if they are here, they are curious, they are searching........do you remember being there?


Another favorite song that speaks what I feel about this: Newsong - Jesus to the World

A little girl who is hungry
Prays for something she can eat
A single mom doing all she can
Finds herself out on the street
Will we see their need and hear their cries
Look at our watch and just walk on by
Or will we stop and take the time
To be Jesus in their lives

CHORUS:
We need to be lambs that roar
We need to be eagles that soar
We need to be salt
We need to be light
We need to be Jesus to the world

We need to take love into the streets
Be willing to turn the other cheek
We need to be strong
We need to be weak
We need to be Jesus
Jesus to the world

Jesus came with a message
That would change the way we live
He showed us all by example
What the heart of heaven is

He saw our need and He heard our cry
He loved us so much that He gave His life
He taught us by his sacrifice
How we should live our lives

CHORUS

BRIDGE:
We can talk and talk about what is wrong
But that won't change one thing at all
We must take God's love where the hurting live
'Cause that's what Jesus did

CHORUS

We need to be Jesus
Jesus to the world

 

[Aidensmom]

i feel like i should almost apologize for posting here, so i do apologize in advance if my presence on this thread is unwelcome. that said, i have been reading this thread with great interest since page 1 and feel the need to address a few points.

No need to apologize, your presence is welcome. I think everyone just wants things to remain respectful, which your post most certainly is. Thanks for your insight.

 

[ford family]

I have enjoyed reading your thread even though I disagree with your beliefs. It is imposssible to prove either way that there is a God or not and there the argument ends, normally.

But I have the draw the line at the contents of the song posted by live4christp1 because it contains so many inaccuracies. By all means have faith and take pride in it, but don't post rubbish that insults our intelligence.

ford family

 

[ead79]

Hello caity! Please don’t feel unwelcome here. You are always respectful in your religious discussions, and I enjoy your perspective. Thanks for the good vibes, LOL! I think the OP was just afraid the thread would become a huge debate and was looking for a place where Christians can enjoy each other’s company. However, I think that the desire to avoid debates (which is understandable, since there are always lots of thread where that can be done) was taken too far and left an overall unwelcoming tone to this thread. People who don’t believe are welcome to ask questions here as long as everyone is respectful. How could anyone outside our faith learn about our beliefs if we didn’t let them ask questions? As long as the questions are presented respectfully and politely, I think that everyone is welcome to ask about our beliefs.

 

[ThAnswr]

As I consider the universe around me I see that it is no accident or random occurence. A loving God has ordered things "just so" in this universe so life can exist.

In the idea that this world is no accident, you and I are in complete agreement. Well, whattayanno!

(snipped)

Now, having said that, I know that to an unbeliever, especially a cynical one, this may sound like infantile twaddle.

I wouldn't be so sure of that if I were you. I'm an unbeliever, and I still agree that this is no accident.

 

[ead79]

A while back on this thread there were some posts about sin and how we classify “degrees” of sin. I don’t think I ever got a chance to talk about that, so here goes.

I believe that all sins are the same in God’s eyes to the extent that they separate us from God and are the reason we need His salvation. All sins have the same eternal consequence—eternal separation from God. However, I don’t believe that all sins have the same earthly consequence. In other words, I think the repercussions of sin on this side of heaven vary according to the “degree” of sin. In other words, the punishment for murder is much greater than the punishment for lying. While God can forgive all sins no matter how severe, I believe that He doesn’t always remove the earthly consequences of those sins. As an example, there was an interview on TV once with a lady on death row for murder. While in prison, she accepted Christ as her Savior and asked forgiveness for her sins. If she was sincere, then I believe that God forgave her and accepted her into His Kingdom. The interviewer was astonished that she wasn’t trying to get out of her death sentence since she has become a totally different person. She told him that while she knew God has forgiven her, she knows that she must be punished for those actions here on earth. While God will always forgive us if we are sincere in our acceptance of His Son and repentance from our sins, I don’t believe that He always removes the earthly consequences of our actions.

 

[Miss Jasmine]

Hi Caity and Ford Family!!! It is so nice to see you here!!!! No need to apologize for your presence.

I do find it ironic that the person who most wanted to avoid debate and controversy made the most controversial statement here though.

Anyway, I believe the more we discuss the more we all learn.

 

[Miss Jasmine]

A while back on this thread there were some posts about sin and how we classify “degrees” of sin. I don’t think I ever got a chance to talk about that, so here goes.

I believe that all sins are the same in God’s eyes to the extent that they separate us from God and are the reason we need His salvation. All sins have the same eternal consequence—eternal separation from God. However, I don’t believe that all sins have the same earthly consequence. In other words, I think the repercussions of sin on this side of heaven vary according to the “degree” of sin. In other words, the punishment for murder is much greater than the punishment for lying. While God can forgive all sins no matter how severe, I believe that He doesn’t always remove the earthly consequences of those sins. As an example, there was an interview on TV once with a lady on death row for murder. While in prison, she accepted Christ as her Savior and asked forgiveness for her sins. If she was sincere, then I believe that God forgave her and accepted her into His Kingdom. The interviewer was astonished that she wasn’t trying to get out of her death sentence since she has become a totally different person. She told him that while she knew God has forgiven her, she knows that she must be punished for those actions here on earth. While God will always forgive us if we are sincere in our acceptance of His Son and repentance from our sins, I don’t believe that He always removes the earthly consequences of our actions.

Oh there are definite earthly consequences for sin, even if they aren't crimes. Such as infidelity, lying, etc. By our free will we chose those things, so we have to deal with the consequences. However, we can pray for the strength to get through such things.

 

[disneymom3]

Elisabeth-interesting thoughts. Thanks for sharing them. I am the person who originally posted about our sermon being on sin. I am going to think about what you have said. It makes a lot of sense to me. I know God forgives all sin if forgiveness is sincerely asked for, I think it is the repercussions concept that was making me get stuck.

I also wanted to say that I appreciate the foks who are not Christians and have come on this thread and asked questions in a respectful way. I think that is great and that the concept of the thread not being one for debate is overall being very respected. I especially wanted to say to Caitycaity, Rick in new york, mick and Jenny that I think your questions and thoughts have added a lot to the thread and that I for one would hate for you to not feel welcome. I think we have a rather mixed thread here and that the majority of us who are posting here because we are Christian are open to sincere questions and thoughts from anyone who wants to post them. As long as a poster doesn't come on here making inflamatory comments, then I personally see no harm in it at all and think it should be welcome.

I wanted to address the Why Do I Believe question. For me, it probably does start and end with the "feeling" and the knowing God. There is peace in my life when I follow God and chaos when I do not or when I step away and try to do my own thing. I also believe that the Bible is true but not only from feeling or belief but because it is logical to me. Throughout the Bible, God is consistent. He is all knowing and all loving no matter what book or chapter you turn to. Man is not that consistent and since we know that books of the Bible were written at different times in history, there is no way a bunch of different men could have pulled this off on their own. (The consistency that is.) I also am continually astounded at the amount and accuracy of prophecy from the OT to the NT. Again, there is not anyone brilliant enough on this earth to have made up these stories. I am not a Biblical scholar and in fact am not even very good at memorizing scripture, but I know there are many many places that the birth and life of Jesus are prophecied in ways that could not just be chance.

And yes, I also believe that someone planned this all out. The world and in my opinion the human body, just for a start make way too much sense to have happened by chance or accident. When my son was sick with kidney disease, I learned a heck of a lot about kidneys. That one organ alone was astounding to me! No way, someone (that someone being God) didn't plan this all on purpose.

 

[dcentity2000]

don't post rubbish that insults our intelligence.

I like the song. Quit bashing the song!



Rich::

 

[macraven]

i want to share this with you. it is one of the things that made me feel in my heart there is a God.

i was not raised in a christian home. i came to Christ when i was in my 30's.
my religious practice prior was basically what i now call a cult.
thank you God for your Grace.........


i was one that needed proof of God's existence. i found something that has reassured me that only truth is in the Bible, God's holy word.

In the late 60's, mankind was in the space age and plans made for putting man on the moon. scientists were concerned about the space ship landing on the moon..they built long legs so the engiine would not be full of debrie and dust once landing on the moon.


that moon dust made me a believer............


scientists said the universe/earth are billions of years old. and with that passing of times, the moon would have many feet of dust on its surface. therefore the need to build the space ship with elongated legs to land safely and be able to take off again.

when the ship landed on the moon, there was only 1/4 - 1/2 inch of moon dust on the surface.

hey.............the scientists were wrong...........
if the universe was billion of years old, then, the dust would have been there.

i always remembered that and when that time in my life came to know the Lord, the moon dust came to my mind in a flash . first time in this christian church........and i knew God was real because of the moon dust.


thank you for letting me share

 

[disneymom3]

Making a new post because my last one is pretty long and I wanted to ask advice of other Christians to get some perspective.

I am going to a weekly Bible study that I really enjoy. I do not feel I get anything much out of my small group but have been open to what God wants me to get out of it. However, my 9 year old is having a hard time with the babysitting situation they have available. There is one 8 year old in there and several kids who just finished first grade. Now, we homeschool so my DD works well and interacts with kids of all ages. In fact, one group we are in she is the oldest by a couple of years and has no problem with it, plays well with all the other little girls and one of them who just finished first grade is one of her best friends. However, there is one of the teenage babysitters who is really troubling my DD. She says she treats her like a baby adn she calls her by a nickname that would work for her name, but she doesn't like to be called. (Like Jenny for Jennifer.) She really doesn't want to go.

So, what would you do? I have talked to her about choosign how we respond to people adn choosing to let something bother us or let it go. She has asked this girl repeatedly not to call her the nickname and says she is always polite when she talks to her, but the girl doesn't answer her questions (Like, where are the coloring sheets when other kids have them.) Should I not go anymore? I really don't feel it's workth it to approach this girl, though I would tell the woman in charge why I was quitting. I need advice.