BLT Hostility

[TDC Nala]

Actually, Yes they do have a viewing area... its on the 4th floor. Its just not as good as Cali Grill or the BLT areas are.

They do have a viewing deck on the 4th floor, but it is not restricted to Contemporary guests. I believe the question was, does the Contemporary have a restricted viewing area.

 

[Kickapoo Joie Juice]

You didn't PAY for Pool Hopping. You PAID for a DVC membership. Pool Hopping is a perk that hasn't been around for the life of DVC, is not "included" as part of the price and can be revoked at any time.

The ability to pool hop is a perk that contributed to my decision whether or not to buy DVC. It may not be part of the price but it IS part of the value. And if they "devalue" my membership by removing that perk, then I think they should replace it with a perk of similar value...

And jeez, what is up with the snippy tone, jones?

 

[Deb & Bill]

The ability to pool hop is a perk that contributed to my decision whether or not to buy DVC. It may not be part of the price but it IS part of the value. And if they "devalue" my membership by removing that perk, then I think they should replace it with a perk of similar value...

And jeez, what is up with the snippy tone, jones?

Perks come and go all the time. In the Public Offering Statement, it says "From time to time, DVCMC may establish special Club Member benefit programs to enhance the membership for Club Member. Participation in any Club Member benefit program is completely voluntary. These special programs are not a component of any Ownership Interest or Additional Ownership interest. Some or all Club Member benefit programs may be cancelled or terminated at any time."

So your ownership of DVC points only entitles you to stays at your resort using those points. Anything else is gravy.

 

[Kickapoo Joie Juice]

Perks come and go all the time. In the Public Offering Statement, it says "From time to time, DVCMC may establish special Club Member benefit programs to enhance the membership for Club Member. Participation in any Club Member benefit program is completely voluntary. These special programs are not a component of any Ownership Interest or Additional Ownership interest. Some or all Club Member benefit programs may be cancelled or terminated at any time."

So your ownership of DVC points only entitles you to stays at your resort using those points. Anything else is gravy.

I agree. But I won't eat turkey without gravy. So gravy is *very* important to me.

 

[Dean]

The ability to pool hop is a perk that contributed to my decision whether or not to buy DVC. It may not be part of the price but it IS part of the value. And if they "devalue" my membership by removing that perk, then I think they should replace it with a perk of similar value...

And jeez, what is up with the snippy tone, jones?

Something not guaranteed should not have affected your decision. "It was nice while it lasted" should be the motto for such perks. To imply a responsibility on DVC's part to offer the perk or replace it is unrealistic and not reasonable. I'm guessing that you bought after they started limiting it by blocking SAB and the blackout times but that you knew (or should have known) these changes had happened previously. If your view of the system and your ownership rests on this issue, you're in a very tenuous position IMO.

I suspect the number of LEGAL pool hoppers are very small but the number of pool crashers are large. Lest anyone misunderstand, I'm grouping most members that PH in the pool crasher group. A legal PH is someone who is staying on points (or cash through MS) during a time that is not blacked out and actually checks with the destination resort's front desk presenting their KTTW card that says member on it and actually receives permission. Even then they could get settled and be asked to leave a few minutes later due to capacity issues. Or you could call and ask if it's OK and arrive only to be turned away by the lifeguard once you get there. I know it's a very round about system but "them's the rules".

 

[lugnut33]

When my wife and i pool hopped from Kidani to the Contemporary nobody asked to see our KTTK or DVC card. Let's face it, anybody to could walk into the pools without a problem.

 

[d-r]

I wouldn't look at it that way. Once you trade out you give up the right to that time, hence the use of the word trade. IF DVC allowed day use, as many timeshares do, it would be a different story. If you trade out you should be allowed access to where you're staying and to the same non residence properties that all other owners do who are staying on points at the same time. It's not the restriction I have an issue with, it's the one way aspects that are the issue to me. IMO, what is paid has nothing to do with it just like there is no adjustment for any of the club related options based on dues, price or points owned. How about if DVC only allowed those that owned more than say 500 points to PH, it would be just as fair as the current system we're discussing and is really the same philosophy used for a different group.

I don't choose to trade out if my home resort is all booked and there is nothing available, then I am stuck. It is till one way because we don't pay the same in dues. I don't get the example of only those > 500 points though. But it would be fine with me I guess. It is a different "group" because anybody can stay at bcv, all they have to do is trade out, right.

 

[Dean]

I don't choose to trade out if my home resort is all booked and there is nothing available, then I am stuck. It is till one way because we don't pay the same in dues. I don't get the example of only those > 500 points though. But it would be fine with me I guess. It is a different "group" because anybody can stay at bcv, all they have to do is trade out, right.

If your home resort is booked and you trade, it's still your choice even if it's pressured. The other point was that the current system is selecting out a group to give special benefits to, I was merely pointing out that they could just as easily select a different group, X number of points, only those that bought directly from Disney, etc.

 

[jade1]

Something not guaranteed should not have affected your decision. "It was nice while it lasted" should be the motto for such perks.

Dean is convincing me more and more. Why should I care if an OKW owner for example wants to have the ability to pool hop to 20 or so resort pools (but not to 3). But why stop at PH-especially since we dont even really know if its a problem. They also should eliminate reserving at resorts you dont own at as well IMO. Unlike Pool Hopping-we know ressies at BCV and soon BLT are short on supply for the demand. Hey we all knew, or should have known it could happen.

 

[Dean]

Dean is convincing me more and more. Why should I care if an OKW owner for example wants to have the ability to pool hop to 20 or so resort pools (but not to 3). But why stop at PH-especially since we dont even really know if its a problem. They also should eliminate reserving at resorts you dont own at as well IMO. Unlike Pool Hopping-we know ressies at BCV and soon BLT are short on supply for the demand. Hey we all knew, or should have known it could happen.

I know your being extreme to try to make a point but there is no guarantee of being able to book other resorts, for that matter, there's no guarantee a given resort will continue in the system. However, the safeguards and level of expectation of one vs the other is significantly different. PH, as are other perks, are specifically labeled as items that could be taken away at any moment. Equating the two situations is not reasonable. When, not if, PH is eliminated, I'll reserve the right to say you heard it here first.

 

[jade1]

I know your being extreme to try to make a point but there is no guarantee of being able to book other resorts, for that matter, there's no guarantee a given resort will continue in the system. However, the safeguards and level of expectation of one vs the other is significantly different. PH, as are other perks, are specifically labeled as items that could be taken away at any moment. Equating the two situations is not reasonable

Extreme? How, I do have an issue with BCV always being full and therefore harder to get in and much more wear and tear. Larger resorts are easier to keep in better shape with the lower capacity. This is a way bigger issue than PH IMO. And it can be corrected, and everyone has known from the start. Of course your issues may be the only important ones I guess.

When, not if, PH is eliminated, I'll reserve the right to say you heard it here first.

Actually, PH elimination has been brought up many times before-this is far from the first.

Renee' beat you by 8 years in 2001:

"Viking,

I was simply using that example (9am empty pool) to illustrate my point. This whole thing is completely out-of-hand. I think I'll be the first to recommend that DVC discontinues pool hopping. "

 

[d-r]

Dean is convincing me more and more. Why should I care if an OKW owner for example wants to have the ability to pool hop to 20 or so resort pools (but not to 3). But why stop at PH-especially since we dont even really know if its a problem. They also should eliminate reserving at resorts you dont own at as well IMO. Unlike Pool Hopping-we know ressies at BCV and soon BLT are short on supply for the demand. Hey we all knew, or should have known it could happen.

I agree, if we are going to pay different dues, then don't book my beach club. I'll give up vero.

 

[Dean]

Extreme? How, I do have an issue with BCV always being full and therefore harder to get in and much more wear and tear. Larger resorts are easier to keep in better shape with the lower capacity. This is a way bigger issue than PH IMO. And it can be corrected, and everyone has known from the start. Of course your issues may be the only important ones I guess.



Actually, PH elimination has been brought up many times before-this is far from the first.

Renee' beat you by 8 years in 2001:

"Viking,

I was simply using that example (9am empty pool) to illustrate my point. This whole thing is completely out-of-hand. I think I'll be the first to recommend that DVC discontinues pool hopping. "

I'm sure I mentioned it far before that. Likely on the version of the boards pre 1998 as well. Maybe I misunderstood you, I assumed you were being dramatic to the point of absurd trying to illustrate the issue we were discussing was inconsequential. But you are you really saying to not allow booking at other resorts and to run them all independently. So I misunderstood you, for that I apologize. I personally wouldn't have a real problem with that though I do prefer having the option. I'll let others comment on your suggestion to cease DVC and run the resorts independently.

 

[jco_direwolf]

I agree. But I won't eat turkey without gravy. So gravy is *very* important to me.

Then you made a huge mistake buying DVC, or at least you didn't read what you where signing where it said you read your documents.

But things like Pool Hoping, and Discounts on APs, and can be removed at any point. They can even remove (although I don't think it's technically a perk) any or all DVC resorts from the DVC 7 month booking pool. So only owners can book there.

This is just like the viewing deck at BLT. We don't own the deck. We may never get to use it.

johno

 

[jade1]

They can even remove (although I don't think it's technically a perk) any or all DVC resorts from the DVC 7 month booking pool. So only owners can book there.
johno

Exactly.

 

[Kickapoo Joie Juice]

Then you made a huge mistake buying DVC, or at least you didn't read what you where signing where it said you read your documents.

But things like Pool Hoping, and Discounts on APs, and can be removed at any point. They can even remove (although I don't think it's technically a perk) any or all DVC resorts from the DVC 7 month booking pool. So only owners can book there.

This is just like the viewing deck at BLT. We don't own the deck. We may never get to use it.

johno

We did read all the documents. We didn't "make a mistake", we made an educated decision to buy DVC. If the perks are removed, or changed, to the point where we feel we are not getting the value out of DVC that we want, then we'll sell it and go elsewhere. Not a big deal.

As long as Disney is able to keep us happy as DVC owners, then we will continue to pump 5 figures into their parks every year. When they create restrictions or rules that we feel are untenable, then we vote with our wallet and go elsewhere. No biggie.

 

[Dean]

We did read all the documents. We didn't "make a mistake", we made an educated decision to buy DVC. If the perks are removed, or changed, to the point where we feel we are not getting the value out of DVC that we want, then we'll sell it and go elsewhere. Not a big deal.

As long as Disney is able to keep us happy as DVC owners, then we will continue to pump 5 figures into their parks every year. When they create restrictions or rules that we feel are untenable, then we vote with our wallet and go elsewhere. No biggie.

Unfortunately if the loss of minor and tenuous perks like PH, the AP discount, free Valet, etc would make DVC not a good choice for you and something that would cause you to sell, you are in a very precarious position. Hopefully for your sake you're exaggerating for the effect and not in such a risky situation. I hope most people look at DVC and find that it works well for them without any of the perks and the perks that work for them are just a fringe benefit that makes DVC even better. Reference the recent re-allocation. If YOUR stay just went up 20%, that is a very good reason to re-evaluate the ownership to see if it works for you or not. IMO, if the sudden loss of ALL the non guaranteed perks would be enough for me to sell, I'd sell now because they have no actual intrinsic value for me and that includes the AP discount. However, the AP discount likely does have intrinsic value for some but it's likely the only one anyone can point to as having any real intrinsic value.

 

[jco_direwolf]

Unfortunately if the loss of minor and tenuous perks like PH, the AP discount, free Valet, etc would make DVC not a good choice for you and something that would cause you to sell, you are in a very precarious position.

Thank you Dean for saying what I was saying but a bit clearer and nicer

You have to buy DVC based not on Pool Hopping, or free Park Passes (which they did for a while, my wife has had OKW since ~95) or even the discounted Golf (my inlaws bought in because they where already going to WDW several times a year to play.) This is also why I ALWAYS tell people you have to buy where you want to stay, exchanges between the resorts may not always be possible.

The other thing for people to remember, Disney supports the price of resales market. By actively rebuying sale property below some support level. If Disney were to make a dramatic reduction in the number of RoFR purchases they make, I suspect we would see the bottom drop out of the resale market.

Now the truth, I've always suspected people have put more weight on the RCI/II exchanges, PH, and everything else that is not really what they bought, a fractional interest in the resort named on the deed. I've felt Disney had managed to oversell the "Best kept secret," when times where good. So when things started to get bad in the economy I was worried the resale market would be flooded with $10/pt contracts and Disney would stop rebuying once they filled there backlog. But that they seem to have a much longer view, and deep enough pockets to support the prices.

johno

 

[Dean]

Now the truth, I've always suspected people have put more weight on the RCI/II exchanges, PH, and everything else that is not really what they bought, a fractional interest in the resort named on the deed. I've felt Disney had managed to oversell the "Best kept secret," when times where good. So when things started to get bad in the economy I was worried the resale market would be flooded with $10/pt contracts and Disney would stop rebuying once they filled there backlog. But that they seem to have a much longer view, and deep enough pockets to support the prices.

johno

I'm sure you're right. Hopefully for most of those people DVC still made sense anyway. I actually know of a few people that bought for the perks alone and in their case, it's more reasonable though a specialty situation. I do know of some who have bought just to get the AP discount and others who use it to get a single night studio here and there to have access to PH, free park parking and to have a place to rest as a break during the day. They generally either stay off site and don't actually sleep in the unit and/or they tack on a day or 2 here and there to match up with off site stays. This latter option work especially well for an off site week that starts on Friday for a day or 2 before or Sunday for a day or 2 after. The same is true for those odd weeks that start on Monday through Thursday with MOSTs of those odd weeks being Thursday starts. If you have a larger family and tend to go to Orlando a fair amount plus structure your DVC deed accordingly, the AP discount can be quite the benefit. But their risk is minimal if they only own say 25-75 points and if a totally lose of the contract wouldn't be the end of the world for them compared to one who's entire vacation investment (both $$$ and emotionally) was in DVC. As an example, say you had 4 adult siblings that were married with families of their own. Assume 2 kids per family, that's at least around 16 people eligible for the $100 discount or $1600 if ALL go an AP. All that for say an investment of $2000 and yearly fees of maybe $125 assuming 25 points.

Here's an interesting exercise. Say you lived in the area and got a singe weekday night studio plus the DDP and did not have an AP but rather a Seasonal Pass which does not offer free parking. Further assume a family of 4 with all kids 3-9. You tend to check in a 7 AM and leave after dinner on the check out day, in this case, next day. For 9-12 points (after reallocation) you'd get 2 days of free parking ($24), 2 full days of PH and pool use, the benefits of the DDP, extra magic hours, better bus options, free internet and I'm sure there are others. Say you don't normally get desert and often order water so you use the TS credits (1 Adult/1 Child) for Dinner at Le Cellier one night and WP or a similar more expensive option on the other night. Maybe you do the same for the CS using one credit of each at WP express day 1 and Pepper Market day 2. Your total cost for that one night (ignoring up front costs and time value of $) would be say $50 for the maint fees plus roughly $100 total for the DDP. While I realize that the cost of the DDP is independent, staying at DVC on points give you access for a single night without buying tickets.

 

[Kickapoo Joie Juice]

Unfortunately if the loss of minor and tenuous perks like PH, the AP discount, free Valet, etc would make DVC not a good choice for you and something that would cause you to sell, you are in a very precarious position. Hopefully for your sake you're exaggerating for the effect and not in such a risky situation. I hope most people look at DVC and find that it works well for them without any of the perks and the perks that work for them are just a fringe benefit that makes DVC even better. Reference the recent re-allocation. If YOUR stay just went up 20%, that is a very good reason to re-evaluate the ownership to see if it works for you or not. IMO, if the sudden loss of ALL the non guaranteed perks would be enough for me to sell, I'd sell now because they have no actual intrinsic value for me and that includes the AP discount. However, the AP discount likely does have intrinsic value for some but it's likely the only one anyone can point to as having any real intrinsic value.

Ok, first off let me preface this with the fact that I'm starting to find this thread really tedious so it will be my last post on it, but the whole "I'm in a very precarious position" comment was just so wacky, I had to post.

A "precarious position" is sitting on a chair on the edge of a cliff in a high wind. Owning DVC is a benefit we enjoy from years of hard work.

I have no intention of selling when I am satisfied with the current product that Disney and I have an agreement on. If that satisfaction decreases, then I will re-evaluate as necessary. The whole "sky is falling" tone of your posts is beyond annoying.

If you like DVC, keep it. If it no longer works for you, dump it. It's that simple.