Beyond Big Thunder

[Jwaire]

Guest experiences I would love to see return with an investment instead of a new land:

Magical Express, free FP+ (or Genie+) selections, nighttime parade/show, AK open at night, longer magic hours (before and after regular park closing), street performers.

There's probably more, but these were the things off the top of my head.

That wouldn't be an investment. That would be a liability. They've gotten away without bringing those labor intensive items back.

"As miserable as the pandemic has been, we had this opportunity not to just reopen those gates again, but to kind of restart, in a way,” D’Amaro told CNBC last week. “You don’t get these opportunities much in life where the world stands still for you for a moment.”

They had the lucrative revenge travel era, post-COVID, and now that it has died off—they are forced to bring back discounts, make park investments, perform overdue maintenance, etc.

The best thing to improve the guest experience at Walt Disney World would be for people to stop going and start visiting their competitors.

 

[ttintagel]

I'd be happy if they came out and said, "We're not building anything new this year, but we're making a commitment to make sure that everything we currently have is running at peak performance and peak capacity, with adequate staffing and maintenance."

Honestly, a lot of the crowding problems would get a lot better if every attraction, restaurant, and shop was always open and running at capacity. And when they do build new attractions, capacity needs to be a higher priority than it currently is.

 

[Duckbug.Ducktales]

I'd be happy if they came out and said, "We're not building anything new this year, but we're making a commitment to make sure that everything we currently have is running at peak performance and peak capacity, with adequate staffing and maintenance."

Honestly, a lot of the crowding problems would get a lot better if every attraction, restaurant, and shop was always open and running at capacity. And when they do build new attractions, capacity needs to be a higher priority than it currently is.

I would be happy with that as well. I don't need something new all the time and I don't get the constant whining about "WDW's lack of response to EU." But that's not how marketing works. I think that would only work for some of the die-hard fans/repeat visitors, folks connected to Disney news frequently... though many will still complain that WDW isn't building anything new. Regardless, they also have to cater to the average guest who isn't a yearly visitor and isn't plugged in to Disney stuff constantly.

 

[ttintagel]

I would be happy with that as well. I don't need something new all the time and I don't get the constant whining about "WDW's lack of response to EU." But that's not how marketing works. I think that would only work for some of the die-hard fans/repeat visitors, folks connected to Disney news frequently... though many will still complain that WDW isn't building anything new. Regardless, they also have to cater to the average guest who isn't a yearly visitor and isn't plugged in to Disney stuff constantly.

I don't know, Disney's publicity and PR department has been one of their weakest links in recent years. If they got behind a proper publicity campaign promising increased capacity and smoother operations that led to a better guest experience, I think they could really get some traction.

 

[OKW Lover]

I don't know, Disney's publicity and PR department has been one of their weakest links in recent years. If they got behind a proper publicity campaign promising increased capacity and smoother operations that led to a better guest experience, I think they could really get some traction.

And yet the parks are experiencing higher levels of attendance

 

[Jwaire]

And yet the parks are experiencing higher levels of attendance

Attendance dropped substantially during Q4 2023 and Q1 2024. They reported it on their earnings call. And we are still nowhere near pre-COVID levels. They were barely hitting it during the revenge travel era.

It's not as crowded as people think. There's just less to do.

 

[clarker99]

Attendance dropped substantially during Q4 2023 and Q1 2024. They reported it on their earnings call. And we are still nowhere near pre-COVID levels. They were barely hitting it during the revenge travel era.

It's not as crowded as people think. There's just less to do.

We have addressed this in other threads and attendance is likely not down substantially.

Q4FY23 domestic attendance was up 5% vs Q4FY22. They did not mention anything about attendance being down at WDW. I did the math for everyone here and WDW was more than likely up vs the previous yr quarter:
https://www.disboards.com/threads/crowd-outlook.3918282/post-65170415

Q1FY24 domestic attendance was at 0% growth. WDW was down as they mention in the notes. How much do you think WDW was down?

With a 0% domestic growth:

if WDW was:
-1% = DLR was up approx 1.5-2%
-2.5% = DLR up 4-4.5%
-5% = DLR up 7.5-9%

Hard to believe DLR was up more than 2% but possibly.

 

[Brian Noble]

"Substantially" is maybe a bit severe. The actual language they used was:

A decrease [in financial performance] at Walt Disney World Resort reflecting a modest decrease in revenues and higher
costs. These impacts were due to:
▪ Lower volumes due to decreases in attendance and occupied room nights, both of which
reflected the comparison to the 50th anniversary celebration in the prior-year quarter
▪ Higher costs due to inflation, partially offset by cost saving initiatives and lower
depreciation
▪ Increased guest spending due to higher average ticket prices, partially offset by lower
average daily room rates

Interestingly, Disneyland's attendance was up, but also did not have a major anniversary event in the year-prior quarter. And Experiences overall is going gangbusters: "At Experiences, we generated all-time records in revenue, operating income, and operating margin in the first quarter,"

 

[clarker99]

Attendance dropped substantially during Q4 2023 and Q1 2024. They reported it on their earnings call. And we are still nowhere near pre-COVID levels. They were barely hitting it during the revenge travel era.

It's not as crowded as people think. There's just less to do.

Also, if you look at the Florida tourism numbers, post-covid was definitely higher than pre-covid. Add in Florida residents also travelling around Florida and visiting various hotspots and I think it is pretty safe to say that attendance levels were probably higher in 2022/23 vs. 2019.

https://www.disboards.com/threads/crowd-outlook.3918282/post-65380813

 

[BostonEd]

The fact is, while I welcome expansion, MK needs it the least. They could bring back some street performers, etc. and that would make a big difference (not to mention general maintenance). The other parks are where they really need more attractions.

Not much else needs to be said. Thread closed!

 

[starlite_]

Well, as they say, nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public.
Disney used to be a leader in innovation, giving people adventures and experiences they never even knew they wanted, taking risks and telling stories about good and evil, challenges and triumphs, heroes and villains and monsters, happiness and sadness, fear and bravery, friends and enemies, love and hate and life and death. It's a bad sign if their new creative trajectory is just cheap fan pandering.

So according to you, liking Disney Villains = being stupid. Wow.

 

[Topaz Scorpio]

I'd be hard-pressed to think of a stupider idea than a separate land for villains. What are they going to do, take the villains out of all the other areas of the park and segregate them? Heroes and villains belong together. One without the other is just lame and boring. If that's what they end up doing, that will convince me that they're creatively bankrupt and have just run out of good ideas.

It’s not that the hero disappears from the equation it’s just that you shift the focus to be heavily weighted towards the villain and their part of the story. And you obviously start with villains from movies that may not already have rides. For example:

-Cruella de Vil - There is no 101 Dalmatians ride. So this could be a dark ride perhaps where you ride in Cruella’s car on a crazy ride through the streets of London. Maybe a modernized version of Mr. Toad’s Wild Ride.

-Maleficent - There is no Sleeping Beauty ride. So this is a no-brainer for a Maleficent focused dark ride, perhaps blending elements from the live-action films with the animated film that speaks to Maleficent’s backstory.

-Chernobog - There is no Fantasia ride. The winged creature from Fantasia isn’t necessarily a villain but certainly and has no hero going up against it but it would totally fit into the theme. I would love to see a giant Bald Mountain with the Chernobog on top opening his wings periodically while inside the mountain is a roller coaster.

-Monstro - There is no Pinocchio ride. A water ride could feature this villainous whale, perhaps have the ride also feature the villainous Coachman by having the ride start out at Pleasure Island. Maybe make it a flume coaster like Journey to Atlantis at Sea World with the coaster portions connected with Pleasure Island and the flume parts at sea with Monstro? That way it’s not a flume only to be too similar to Tiana’s ride.

Those are just a few. Lots of possibilities there…

Personally I think I would prefer a whole “Dark Kingdom” theme park as opposed to a villains area but that’s probably a far less likely possibility.

 

[Jwaire]

Also, if you look at the Florida tourism numbers, post-covid was definitely higher than pre-covid. Add in Florida residents also travelling around Florida and visiting various hotspots and I think it is pretty safe to say that attendance levels were probably higher in 2022/23 vs. 2019.

https://www.disboards.com/threads/crowd-outlook.3918282/post-65380813

I don't buy this at all.

Your numbers don't match TEAs, which are the industry standard. We'll know about 2023 soon enough (June), but they're not anywhere near 2019 attendance levels as of December 2022.

Presumably, 2022 was the height of the revenge travel phenomenon and total WDW attendance was still down 20+% from 2019.

We know they had a soft summer in 2023.

Park	2019	2020	2021	2022
Magic Kingdom	20,963,000	6,941,000	12,691,000	17,133,000
EPCOT	12,444,000	4,044,000	7,752,000	10,000,000
Studios	11,483,000	3,675,000	8,589,000	10,900,000
Animal Kingdom	13,888,000	4,166,000	7,194,000	9,027,000
Total WDW	58,778,000	18,826,000	36,226,000	47,060,000

https://aecom.com/wp-content/uploads/documents/reports/AECOM-Theme-Index-2022.pdf

 

[cat4hurricane]

Have to agree with everyone saying to do a themed land, and not one based entirely on one specific IP (so no frozen land, no Toy Story or Star Wars land). For me, the best parts of Disney have always been the original creations, not the IP-based rides. An area where they can focus on a theme of choice (continue with the -land ideas? Expand Frontierland?) would be perfect in my opinion. Also along with that, I’d love to see some of the new technology that the other parks are getting (most notably Tokyo and Hong-Kong but also California) be involved in the creation of the rides. Give us something that uses the motion floors that they’ve been showing off recently, or the Spider-Man animatronic, give us some of the cool technology they used in the creation of the overseas Pirate ride or the Mystic Mansion.

I want this expansion to be something completely new to any park, it’s great to get similar/same rides as other places, but it feels like MK (and WDW in general) is lagging behind the other parks (especially overseas) in the “Cool New Ride Featured Only Here” factor. When I go to someplace like DLR in California, I specifically hunt out the rides I know I won’t be able to ride at WDW because that’s a completely new experience for me and I want WDW and MK specifically to have more of those in the park. If WDI/WED can determine a theme that they want (villains, Frontierland expansion, something more general but fitting) and let their imagination run wild on what they could fill in that empty alloted space, I’d be really happy. I want to see WDI’s creativity, I want to see them have essentially free rein again, let them run wild with ideas that can connect to a theme. Let them explore in ways we haven’t seen Stateside. It’s rare that the parks have an expansion, especially one that isn’t designated to an IP or have a specific purpose like Epcot’s is, I want to see what they can do when the only thing limiting them is their own ideas. I want to see them really push the edge of what’s possible, safe within the confines of whatever they determine this expansion to be.

 

[clarker99]

I don't buy this at all.

Your numbers don't match TEAs, which are the industry standard. We'll know about 2023 soon enough (June), but they're not anywhere near 2019 attendance levels as of December 2022.

Presumably, 2022 was the height of the revenge travel phenomenon and total WDW attendance was still down 20+% from 2019.

We know they had a soft summer in 2023.

Park	2019	2020	2021	2022
Magic Kingdom	20,963,000	6,941,000	12,691,000	17,133,000
EPCOT	12,444,000	4,044,000	7,752,000	10,000,000
Studios	11,483,000	3,675,000	8,589,000	10,900,000
Animal Kingdom	13,888,000	4,166,000	7,194,000	9,027,000
Total WDW	58,778,000	18,826,000	36,226,000	47,060,000

https://aecom.com/wp-content/uploads/documents/reports/AECOM-Theme-Index-2022.pdf

This was brought to my attention in a DM.

So yeah, I am wrong overall attendance. Apologies.

Disney did exactly what they said they were going to in terms of reducing capacity to 80%. AP's didn't exist and conventions were non-existent etc. Those random evening taps into Epcot for dinner by local AP's didn't happen.

The Florida data is correct. The Q4FY23 (July-Sept) 5% increase over same 2022 period is also correct. Prob due to AP's getting back to the parks.

With the help of @lentesta I looked at total on-site hotel stays over covid. I did find that total occupied hotel room stays (DVC and cash rooms) were in the 2018-19 range. So, people on-site was pretty much back to normal with zero international travelers.
This is a rolling 4 quarter chart of Domestic Occupied Rooms.

 

[Einstein509]

This was brought to my attention in a DM.

So yeah, I am wrong overall attendance. Apologies.

Disney did exactly what they said they were going to in terms of reducing capacity to 80%. AP's didn't exist and conventions were non-existent etc. Those random evening taps into Epcot for dinner by local AP's didn't happen.

The Florida data is correct. The Q4FY23 (July-Sept) 5% increase over same 2022 period is also correct. Prob due to AP's getting back to the parks.

With the help of @lentesta I looked at total on-site hotel stays over covid. I did find that total occupied hotel room stays (DVC and cash rooms) were in the 2018-19 range. So, people on-site was pretty much back to normal with zero international travelers.
View attachment 857490This is a rolling 4 quarter chart of Domestic Occupied Rooms.

To your point, we stay DVC, but don't enter the parks. Perhaps there are many more like us now. Overall price of things is out of control (APs, Genie+, etc.).

That would explain room capacity near 2019 levels, but park attendance not so much.

 

[Brian Noble]

I did find that total occupied hotel room stays (DVC and cash rooms) were in the 2018-19 range. So, people on-site was pretty much back to normal with zero international travelers.

Disney's rooms have more or less the same occupancy year over year, almost independent of the overall demand for the theme parks. They will discount a little more to keep them filled during periods of lower demand, and are more likely to hold the line on rates during periods of higher demand. Instead, offsite hotels tend to be the "shock absorber" for demand fluctuations.

I also saw a very interesting article in the Atlantic recently that said (among other things):

Garfield also pointed to one of the less discussed ways that pandemic changes have continued to affect how Americans spend their money: Before 2020, he said, consumers were in a slow, steady, long-term pattern of moving their spending incrementally away from goods and toward services—things such as hotel stays and Uber rides. Pandemic shutdowns reversed that trend virtually overnight, and four years later, a greater proportion of consumer spending is still going to goods than it was in 2019. Population-level spending habits move with all the agility and grace of a container ship; without a pandemic-level force to send them swiftly back where they came from, people just seem to be used to buying a little bit more stuff than they used to, especially online.

It's tempting here on DIS to look at demand changes at WDW and think those changes are entirely due to what is (or is not) happening within the bounds of the Resort, because we are constantly marinating in it. But, it is much more likely that such fluctuations are driven by larger societal-level trends.

 

[Cogswel_Cogs]

I'd love to see Disney buy beat sabre and or something like it and have virtual battles. Really make it exceptional in park. but also almighty to play virtually at home.
I have only seen these machines in reels but they look cool.

 

[egrzesiowski]

It's inevitable, but not for the reasons you cite. Those attractions are on premium land, have outlived their utility, should be replaced to increase capacity and appeal to the current crowds.

It's not the 1950's anymore. Davy Crockett isn't on TV. Riding a steamboat around a fake island on a track isn't all that thrilling.

Some of these attractions like Tom Sawyer Island, The Liberty Square Riverboat, Carousel of Progress, Hall of Presidents, etc. have had a good run, but attendance is low and it's time to move on.

Disney should take a page from Silver Dollar City or even Tokyo Disneyland. Announce the attractions are closing in 1 year, have a 1 year "goodbye" event for them and close the book in a respectful way.

50+ years was a good run. These are theme parks, not museums.

What is there to even do on the island? I just went to WDW last month and didn't even consider going to the Island. Ditto in 2022. I say get rid of it or retheme it. I also could care less about a riverboat. But maybe that's because my city is on a river and we have river boats that I have been on for school events.

 

[OKW Lover]

What is there to even do on the island?

It can be a quiet wander once you get away from the fort.