Best & Worst Pirates discussion

[CT Yankee]

I have been going to WDW since I was 5. Even though I loved the ride, I would always feel bad when we got to that scene. Ironically, not because the women were being sold, although as a adult I find that objectionable. Even as a young girl, I looked more like the overweight woman in blue than the redhead. I got to watch a scene with men who didn't want her. She wasn't worth anything to them because she wasn't beautiful. And I was like her. I wanted to be the redhead so that I would be wanted as much as she was. That's what's so sick about that scene for me. I wanted to be the one they wanted to abuse, because otherwise I was worthless. This is not a static history lesson. It teaches girls how to feel about themselves. It teaches boys that it's ok to judge women based on their appearance and their sexual use.

I too always felt uncomfortable with this scene - for some of the same reasons you point out, and also for the fact that selling people was being portrayed as something jokey. This was long before the #metoo movement. Believe me, I happen to think that in many cases we have gotten pretty carried away with political correctness, but I think there is a difference between PC and being in poor taste, and this scene to me was always just inappropriate. I know all people don't see it that way but that has been my view of it since my first visit several years ago.

 

[Shanbo]

I had a big gap between going to Disney as a kid and as an adult. When I rode it again as an adult this scene jogged my memory to when I was a kid. It was uncomfortable but kind of in a good way because it showed how evil the pirates were.
I don't know if I fully agree with removing it as it's iconic in showing what is clearly wrong about how they acted. I've heard people say they should because it upset some kid.
In the U.K we have things like The London Dungeons which show the shocking medieval times and some kids get upset at that. But it's true what happened and we can't pretend it didn't just to keep everyone happy.

In terms of the MeToo relationship there really isn't one. This was announced well before this 'movement'.
And I'd sadly assume Pete knows a lot about oppression in society.

 

[tweedletwin]

It seems like you've made up your mind, but I'm going to try one last time to make you understand.

I have been going to WDW since I was 5. Even though I loved the ride, I would always feel bad when we got to that scene. Ironically, not because the women were being sold, although as a adult I find that objectionable. Even as a young girl, I looked more like the overweight woman in blue than the redhead. I got to watch a scene with men who didn't want her. She wasn't worth anything to them because she wasn't beautiful. And I was like her. I wanted to be the redhead so that I would be wanted as much as she was. That's what's so sick about that scene for me. I wanted to be the one they wanted to abuse, because otherwise I was worthless. This is not a static history lesson. It teaches girls how to feel about themselves. It teaches boys that it's ok to judge women based on their appearance and their sexual use.

You know...this is so, so well put it bears repeating.

I admit to being a little sad when I heard the auction scene was going to be changed. Humans have difficulty with change in general. Most of us are creatures of habit, and it’s pretty normal to start equating “what I grew up with and have become accustomed to” as “better.”

But what you’ve said is a damn compelling reason to embrace the change. I vividly remember as a young child, hoping to grow up to look like that redhead. That scene, while mastefully designed, still plays on the fact that every other woman in that lineup is a joke.

I was raised to be independent, strong and decisive. Success in school and athletic activities was always stressed over looks. But the environment women are raised in *starting as children* is a pervasive one that continually socializes you to hold the belief that your physical appeal to the opposite sex is inherently tied to self worth, and tbh, if you’re not a woman, it’s probably difficult to understand how strange and damaging that is. I’m not sure it’s something I will ever be able to fully dismantle for myself, but I will keep trying. And I am willing to see that scene go the way of the Dodo, if it’s a step in the right direction for girls younger than me!

As always, I love the Dis show and the hosts! This is an interesting discussion, and I appreciate everyone here who is willing to have it.

 

[GAN]

I’ve probably been on POTC 50 times in 40 or so years, and being a male, have never been affected by the scene. Never thought twice, honestly. With two daughters in their early 20’s, it’s an issue that is relevant to me so I’m glad the topic is being discussed openly. I’ve been on the ride since the change and again, can’t say I was affected one way or another ...but that’s the way I am. What is the scene now? Is it better for everyone? Just curious if the general consensus is that it’s being better received by anyone who felt negative towards it...

 

[TheMaxRebo]

I’ve probably been on POTC 50 times in 40 or so years, and being a male, have never been affected by the scene. Never thought twice, honestly. With two daughters in their early 20’s, it’s an issue that is relevant to me so I’m glad the topic is being discussed openly. I’ve been on the ride since the change and again, can’t say I was affected one way or another ...but that’s the way I am. What is the scene now? Is it better for everyone? Just curious if the general consensus is that it’s being better received by anyone who felt negative towards it...

They haven't put in the update Stateside yet - only in Disneyland Paris so far

WDW is getting the update when the ride goes down for refurb early 2018

 

[GAN]

They haven't put in the update Stateside yet - only in Disneyland Paris so far

WDW is getting the update when the ride goes down for refurb early 2018

Well ....I guess I’m not as oblivious as I originally thought! That makes me feel a little better. I’ll have to pay attention next visit, assuming it’s complete by June. Happy New Year Phil!

 

[Tonyz]

Honest question... since over the past decade there has been a major national and international debate on torture and the use of waterboarding in particular, is it okay to keep the scene of the mayor being dunked into the well?

 

[HopperFan]

I always thought the argument of it being of historical value was more about it from a Walt/Imagineering etc history ... no real history. That said ..... I believe there are two, maybe more, points of view here and there is no reason for anyone to have to try to change anyone's mind or infer that any point of view is wrong. It is after all a vintage theme park ride that is completely optional to all. No adult has to ride, no parent has to take their child on it. So they change one part, but it still leaves LOTS of other "offensive" parts on the same ride. It is not the only ride at Disney that is "offensive" and I think at some point the real issues in the world become lost or diminished when so much energy is place on a ride.

I am female, I have an adult daughter; I take no offense, I don't think she does either. I guess I look at it from the point of view that the pirates all want the red head because there is no doubt in my mind she is a prostitute and therefore .... comes with benefits. I'm not sure why anyone would want to be her other than her obvious sass. So the new one will still have sass but goes from prostitute to pirate, neither are good.

At some point we could lose many attractions/entertainment:
- Pirates has LOTS issues going on in there
- Peter Pan kidnaps three kids in the night and tries to enslave a female to be slave (mom) to his gang
- Most Disney Villains represent some pretty horrid actions against others, there go the best greets
- 7DMT aka little people
- WORSE yet is 7D Dopey, clearly a disabled individual with an offensive name, often teased, very disturbing!
- Haunted Mansion is actually disturbing to some guests due to it's treatment of death and afterlife
- Splash Mountain ..............
- Jungle Cruise ... head hunters?
- Small World, a boat ride of stereotypes of different cultures and races

The list goes on and cleansing something doesn't make it go way, except for in conversations and that is never good.

PS DS went on the Paris ride this fall. He said it is so much better, tells an actually story and makes more sense. Too bad that much renovation is not possible here or I would say will never happen.

 

[k8Davies]

I for one love the fact that it's being updated.

Especially as it's going to keep the Red Head and depicts her as a pirate (true in history as there were a lot of female pirates)- pirating was an early adopter of woman's contribution to the workforce.

But I suppose most of this discussion is moot as we know it's definitely changing. I know when Disney changes rides there are yays and boos on either side, but I feel that once it's changed, in a couple of months we won't remember what all the fuss is about.

Lastly I'm thinking new Disney IP, the adventures of the Red Headed Pirate...

 

[TheMaxRebo]

Lastly I'm thinking new Disney IP, the adventures of the Red Headed Pirate...

There was some chatter (and I don't know if it is based on anything factual or just speculating) that with the current Pirates movies sort of running their course and wanting to move beyond Johnny Depp's character that part of the thinking with this change is to introduce her as a new character that future movies could be centered around

 

[TheMaxRebo]

Honest question... since over the past decade there has been a major national and international debate on torture and the use of waterboarding in particular, is it okay to keep the scene of the mayor being dunked into the well?

I get what you are saying and I think that is the type of thing that people who cry out against the "PC police" worry about - one or two guests complaining about something and then they have to change it and where does that end? (Water boarding is cruel, get rid of that scene .... people die in fires every year, get rid of the part when the town is on fire .... my great uncle died from a human cannonball incidence, get rid of the end of the Muppets 3D movie!... etc.)

The big difference I see between something like that and the change that is being made is that the scene isn't against one specific group of people, and something you can't discriminate against - so it is a bit apples and oranges

 

[disneysteve]

The big difference I see between something like that and the change that is being made is that the scene isn't against one specific group of people, and something you can't discriminate against - so it is a bit apples and oranges

That's a very good point. Something isn't discriminatory if it insults everyone equally .

 

[SorcererHeidi]

That's a very good point. Something isn't discriminatory if it insults everyone equally .

I used to have a boss that said "I'm not prejudiced - I hate everybody equally". And boy - did he sure ACT like it!

 

[KingLlama]

I won't ride POTC until they add a Willie Stargell animatronic.

 

[ldubberly]

Honest question... since over the past decade there has been a major national and international debate on torture and the use of waterboarding in particular, is it okay to keep the scene of the mayor being dunked into the well

My thoughts exactly. Are we to "romance" the history of the pirate to the point that they are looked at like heros? While we are at it, let's take out the drinking, thieving, and burning. Pirates were bad people- criminals who raped, pillaged, and plundered- this is the point of the store of the ride.

 

[HopperFan]

I won't ride POTC until they add a Willie Stargell animatronic.

Got me thinking ............ do we have diversity among the pirates .......... can't think of any.

My thoughts exactly. Are we to "romance" the history of the pirate to the point that they are looked at like heros? While we are at it, let's take out the drinking, thieving, and burning. Pirates were bad people- criminals who raped, pillaged, and plundered- this is the point of the store of the ride.

As DS says, Disney made Jack Sparrow, a PIRATE, a hero and loveable, and diluted down the pirate image ......... it has made the behaviors acceptable so now the challenge with the ride .... is the message that all of this is okay? But reality is ... it is a theme park ride; optional.

 

[GAN]

I always thought the argument of it being of historical value was more about it from a Walt/Imagineering etc history ... no real history. That said ..... I believe there are two, maybe more, points of view here and there is no reason for anyone to have to try to change anyone's mind or infer that any point of view is wrong. It is after all a vintage theme park ride that is completely optional to all. No adult has to ride, no parent has to take their child on it. So they change one part, but it still leaves LOTS of other "offensive" parts on the same ride. It is not the only ride at Disney that is "offensive" and I think at some point the real issues in the world become lost or diminished when so much energy is place on a ride.

I am female, I have an adult daughter; I take no offense, I don't think she does either. I guess I look at it from the point of view that the pirates all want the red head because there is no doubt in my mind she is a prostitute and therefore .... comes with benefits. I'm not sure why anyone would want to be her other than her obvious sass. So the new one will still have sass but goes from prostitute to pirate, neither are good.

At some point we could lose many attractions/entertainment:
- Pirates has LOTS issues going on in there
- Peter Pan kidnaps three kids in the night and tries to enslave a female to be slave (mom) to his gang
- Most Disney Villains represent some pretty horrid actions against others, there go the best greets
- 7DMT aka little people
- WORSE yet is 7D Dopey, clearly a disabled individual with an offensive name, often teased, very disturbing!
- Haunted Mansion is actually disturbing to some guests due to it's treatment of death and afterlife
- Splash Mountain ..............
- Jungle Cruise ... head hunters?
- Small World, a boat ride of stereotypes of different cultures and races

The list goes on and cleansing something doesn't make it go way, except for in conversations and that is never good.

PS DS went on the Paris ride this fall. He said it is so much better, tells an actually story and makes more sense. Too bad that much renovation is not possible here or I would say will never happen.

You obviously were reading my mind!

 

[Cornish Lad]

They haven't changed the scene where the pirate is being abused by a woman with a rolling pin have they . I agree with Pete that the world today is being ruined by all this PC rubbish. As the old saying goes "you can't please all of the people all of the time" - if you don't like it then don't go.

 

[disneysteve]

They haven't changed the scene where the pirate is being abused by a woman with a rolling pin have they .

That scene was changed. It used to have the pirates chasing the women.

 

[TheRealDrDisney]

Honest question... since over the past decade there has been a major national and international debate on torture and the use of waterboarding in particular, is it okay to keep the scene of the mayor being dunked into the well?

According to the WHO, drowning is the 3rd leading cause of unintentional injury death worldwide and accounts for 7% of all injury-related deaths. There are an estimated 360,000 drowning deaths annually worldwide.

It's not funny and it's not a joke to people who have been affected by it.

The well scene needs to go.

As for the auction scene, it's interesting that the people who identify with the larger lady have expressed empathy, but no one has spoken for the older lady, or the homely lady. I can guarantee you there are people who identify with them as well and those stereotypes of less-desirable traits are just as hurtful.