Band vs Football: I need your thoughts. (long post)

[JimB.]

While a majority does stay in the sports program, yes some of it does offset other school exspenses!

Ok, fine. Now, if those guys on the team go on a band trip, will it adversely effect the income of the program? Secondly, if they are playoff bound, then that's extra income that the program was not counting on at the beginning of the year, so any sort of BS "lost income" arguement is irrelevant.

Choices.

Not always easy. Make one. Don't make life aggravating for the convenience of a chosen few...............

 

[septbride2002]

I don't know about where you are from, but around here the sports teams bring in alot of money for the schools that the band does not.

Maybe that is true in Denver. At my school the band brought in more money. We were recognized as the top 5A band in Missouri which is a pretty big freaking deal. Think of it like the state champions for sports. We received a nice little sum that went into the Fine Arts programs of the school. Our football team never made it to playoffs the entire time I was in high school - while the band won the Greater St. Louis Championship all 4 years. Not to mention that people came to games to see the band therefore that revenue was ours not the football teams - guess where it went, athletics.

Editted to say - this has always been a problem for most schools. Which is WHY our school said you could do one or the other but not both. The commitment was to great. We did manage to have one player who did both with the understanding that Band came first.

~Amanda

 

[WDW LOVR]

As a former HS football player (and basketball and baseball) let me say I would not change the trip. I would also say give the kids the choice. I would bet to a man they will opt for the playoff game. Disney will be there for the rest of their lives and the state playoffs will be a (at the most) couple times opportunity.

 

[PlaneJoy1]

From a project management perspecitive, there is no way you could cancel the trip and expect to reschedule for the following week. The logistics of doing so would decrease your numbers significantly. Haven't parent's taken vacation time to chaperone the trip? Do the students not have school the week following Thanksgiving?

You would be moving you trip on the "chance" that they make the playoffs. What are the odds really? (I'm not saying that you are not a good team, but looking at your competition bracket, how do the odds fall out?)

"The greater good" comes into play. I forget how many were going, but you would disrupting the trip for ~92% to accomodate ~8%, that's just not good math.

Band member often feel that they aren't important as it is. This would drive that point home.

Just my two cents....

 

[golfgal]

I don't know about where you are from, but around here the sports teams bring in alot of money for the schools that the band does not.

Around here the band is more popular then the football team. The only reason the football team has spectators that aren't parents is because the band is there. We have 300 out of 800 students in our marching band alone, then there are another 200+ students, so 500 total that are in concert band and then off shoots of that with 4 jazz bands, etc. Band is HUGE in our town.

I am all for kids playing sports. I would let the individual players make up their own mind what they want to do. I also agree that this game might never happen, the playoffs are a whole new season, so you might have to change your plans for nothing.

 

[golfgal]

Maybe that is true in Denver. At my school the band brought in more money. We were recognized as the top 5A band in Missouri which is a pretty big freaking deal. Think of it like the state champions for sports. We received a nice little sum that went into the Fine Arts programs of the school. Our football team never made it to playoffs the entire time I was in high school - while the band won the Greater St. Louis Championship all 4 years. Not to mention that people came to games to see the band therefore that revenue was ours not the football teams - guess where it went, athletics.

Editted to say - this has always been a problem for most schools. Which is WHY our school said you could do one or the other but not both. The commitment was to great. We did manage to have one player who did both with the understanding that Band came first.

~Amanda

Ok, way off topic-any chance your band is playing at the BOA Super Regional Oct 21st/22nd? Our high school band it going and since my dad and step-mom live outside of St. Louis we are going to drive down to watch the band.

 

[swilphil]

Tell the Super if he pays for the plane tickets and cost of room changes, you'll change the trip. Also, his office can do all of the rescheduling for this.

 

[foolishmortal]

I could already see there is no right or wrong answers to this problem. Some are sports fans, some are band fans!!!

No arguement will be good enough for the other side to change an opinion.

Where I am from, and I believe Michigan (where this hs is) is the same way, sports is huge and is the money maker for the school. Making Playoffs, muchless being a state contender is (usually unless you're a powerhouse) a once in a lifetime thing. Where as a band can go to WDW any year as long as funds are raised.

Now I can for sure see the other side, trip is paid for, has been planned, etc....why waste time and money on rescheduling.

But it is easier to reschedule and pay a little money than it is to make playoffs in ANY sport.

 

[CookieGVB]

So where does the "little extra money" come from? The athletics fund?

That would only be fair, but we all know about fair...

 

[Pinnie]

I could already see there is no right or wrong answers to this problem. Some are sports fans, some are band fans!!!

No arguement will be good enough for the other side to change an opinion.

Where I am from, and I believe Michigan (where this hs is) is the same way, sports is huge and is the money maker for the school. Making Playoffs, muchless being a state contender is (usually unless you're a powerhouse) a once in a lifetime thing. Where as a band can go to WDW any year as long as funds are raised.

Now I can for sure see the other side, trip is paid for, has been planned, etc....why waste time and money on rescheduling.

But it is easier to reschedule and pay a little money than it is to make playoffs in ANY sport.

Sorry, but I am going to disagree with you. I am from MICHIGAN and I teach in a suburban public school system and sports do NOT bring in money here. As a matter of fact, sports programs DRAIN money from the budget and are usually one of the first programs to be cut. In our district, we have initiated "pay to play" for all sports and activities (yes, including band)

Also, both of my kids marched in HS band and it was a policy that unless you could make the band practices and shows, you couldn't march. That pretty much precluded any football players marching in band! Their practices were at the same time and they couldn't be in the half time show or playing in the stands if they were on the field!

I agree that the kids should make a choice. But the needs of 10 shouldn't outweigh the needs of the other 90. Otherwise the tail wags the dog.

pinnie

 

[Kitty 34]

Wow! A lot of good thoughts brought out!! I will be taking a lot of them to throw in the fire so to speak tonight.

I agree, Foolishmortal....it's a no win situtation for either side.

I personally would rather see in the first week of November where we are in the play-offs (we've had good teams before and have only been as far as Game 2). If we are winning, fine....cancel the trip completely IF we can get most of our $$ refunded that's already invested and then maybe go in the spring AFTER and BEFORE basketball/ track season.

What's ironic about my place in this debate is the fact that this is my youngest DS-16 who is in band. Sports (except golf and track) have not been real big on his list. Thus I was pouring my heart into his interest...band.

Whereas my two other boys!?!? Sports all the way! The first one missed a basketball state final by one game and went on to play four years in college.
The other one went to the State finals in Track as a hurdler and high jumper and is now on the track team at UDM.

And yes, in my heart I would love to be there in a heartbeat to root my nephew at Ford Field or Silver dome (not sure which) if our team makes it.

 

[foolishmortal]

Sorry, but I am going to disagree with you. I am from MICHIGAN and I teach in a suburban public school system and sports do NOT bring in money here. As a matter of fact, sports programs DRAIN money from the budget and are usually one of the first programs to be cut. In our district, we have initiated "pay to play" for all sports and activities (yes, including band)

Also, both of my kids marched in HS band and it was a policy that unless you could make the band practices and shows, you couldn't march. That pretty much precluded any football players marching in band! Their practices were at the same time and they couldn't be in the half time show or playing in the stands if they were on the field!

I agree that the kids should make a choice. But the needs of 10 shouldn't outweigh the needs of the other 90. Otherwise the tail wags the dog.

pinnie

That has been a policy since I can remember in most districts.

Now when you say they are cutting some programs because they are draining. I am not trying to be sexist or anything, but they are probably cutting softball, volleyball, soccer, field hockey, etc...those sports do not generate any money, (except fees), where as football basketball, etc...they do generate money and prbably are not the ones getting cut.

My HS was never a good football school (playoffs maybe twice in the last 15 years, but they never cut it has it still brings in revenue, and the basketball team (top 3 for many years) brings in more revenue then anyone could ever imagine. Now that doesn't make it right for the super to change plans and all, but if it were our district and it came to basketball playoffs vs band trip, you would be hard pressed to find anyone in the community to support the band other than the parents and band staff.

I am not saying it's right I am just saying how it is here. Maybe that is how it is with football where the OP is coming from. I don't know.

Again there is no right or wrong answer, I was just stating my view based off of the popularity in comparrison here.

 

[Tinijocaro]

As a former HS football player (and basketball and baseball) let me say I would not change the trip. I would also say give the kids the choice. I would bet to a man they will opt for the playoff game. Disney will be there for the rest of their lives and the state playoffs will be a (at the most) couple times opportunity.

Yes- but how much do you want to bet that when the team DOESN'T make it to the playoffs, a certain disney committee is going to be forced to scramble, yet again, to try to slip these kids in, after they already made the choice to stay for the playoffs. Parents are insane when it comes to their kids.

Jackie

 

[Pinnie]

That has been a policy since I can remember in most districts.

Now when you say they are cutting some programs because they are draining. I am not trying to be sexist or anything, but they are probably cutting softball, volleyball, soccer, field hockey, etc...those sports do not generate any money, (except fees), where as football basketball, etc...they do generate money and prbably are not the ones getting cut.

My HS was never a good football school (playoffs maybe twice in the last 15 years, but they never cut it has it still brings in revenue, and the basketball team (top 3 for many years) brings in more revenue then anyone could ever imagine. Now that doesn't make it right for the super to change plans and all, but if it were our district and it came to basketball playoffs vs band trip, you would be hard pressed to find anyone in the community to support the band other than the parents and band staff.

I am not saying it's right I am just saying how it is here. Maybe that is how it is with football where the OP is coming from. I don't know.

Again there is no right or wrong answer, I was just stating my view based off of the popularity in comparrison here.

Nope, sports cuts go across the board here. EVERY sport/activity is pay to play including football, band and even dramatics.


Who is attending the football games? There are some schools that if it weren't for the band parents, no one would be in the stands! As a matter of fact, a local suburban team petitioned the school board saying that they wanted the band to stay for the ENTIRE game because no one was ever left in the stands after half time. This band was a national champion band and would leave after half time because they'd have a competition on Saturday morning to prepare for. The band director refused to stay and said that when the FOOTBALL team showed up at the band competition to cheer the band on, he'd stay for the entire game. Needless to say, they still leave after half time!

pinnie

 

[Kitty 34]

Yes- but how much do you want to bet that when the team DOESN'T make it to the playoffs, a certain disney committee is going to be forced to scramble, yet again, to try to slip these kids in, after they already made the choice to stay for the playoffs. Parents are insane when it comes to their kids.

Jackie

Good point. Gosh I was liking the "give them a choice" scenerio, too.

 

[Pam]

Around here the band is more popular then the football team. The only reason the football team has spectators that aren't parents is because the band is there. .

(And that nod goes to the LK 4 and septbride 2002 as well!)

As the Mom of a cheerleader/band dance line, I can tell you that I sat football bleachers/basketball gymnasiums in all types of weather for 4 years. And it wasn't for the football players (although I admit to watching the games and getting involved about 2 years into everything! )

Band/cheer parents are very supportive of their kids, traveling to all of the away games.

Around here, the football players are not in the marcing band for the football games - but can do the concert band in the winter/spring.

The band trip has been organized, booked, etc. - the dates should stay the same. It's not even known if the team will go to the playoffs.

2 years ago our HS football team made it to the playoffs and we played football until the first weekend in December. Several football players were also members of the basketball team. Athletic rules prohibit the boys from playing two sports at the same time (i.e., football on Friday, basketball on Tuesday and Thursday). The varsity basketball had to very patiently wait (and lose several games) for his star players until we got eliminated in the playoffs one game away from the State finals.

 

[lyeag]

Good point. Gosh I was liking the "give them a choice" scenerio, too.

you still can give them a choice. Putting it in writing is the key. They need to understand the consequences of the choice. If the team doesn't make it, and they choose the team, they can't go on the trip unless they make their own arrangements. If everyone knows upfront what the choices are and what could happen, you shouldn't have any problems. Get it in writing, like a permission slip signed by the parents.

 

[septbride2002]

Ok, way off topic-any chance your band is playing at the BOA Super Regional Oct 21st/22nd? Our high school band it going and since my dad and step-mom live outside of St. Louis we are going to drive down to watch the band.

That was quite a few years ago and I don't keep track of them anymore I assume they are competing in the BOA though. Look for the Oakville Marching Tigers - they are no longer in the top division as the band size is to small.

~Amanda

 

[foolishmortal]

Nope, sports cuts go across the board here. EVERY sport/activity is pay to play including football, band and even dramatics.


Who is attending the football games? There are some schools that if it weren't for the band parents, no one would be in the stands! As a matter of fact, a local suburban team petitioned the school board saying that they wanted the band to stay for the ENTIRE game because no one was ever left in the stands after half time. This band was a national champion band and would leave after half time because they'd have a competition on Saturday morning to prepare for. The band director refused to stay and said that when the FOOTBALL team showed up at the band competition to cheer the band on, he'd stay for the entire game. Needless to say, they still leave after half time!

pinnie

I agree the pay to particpate policy is for everything here as well, but you mean to tell me your school has a field hockey team but not a football team?????? Or there is a wrestling team but not a basketball team?? I find that hard to believe.

Now again I am not saying that there aren't districts where the band carries more weight than the sports, but honestly ask yourself this..........

If the super has suggested one way, which do you think is the more popular of the 2 in that district?

For the ones saying that band is better than sports there, I am sure if that is the case the super would have ruled in favor of the band trip and would just as soon forget about the football team, but when the super already is leaning 1 way that tells me which is more important in that community and school district.


Now I will say this....I have read the post where the person said that the local HS band was very good and made the equivalent of state for football..great and that is awesome...but that is not what this is, it is a trip for the band.

I would more than happily be on the side of the band if that were the case here, but this is a band trip not a state finals competetion (at least that is the way I read the OP). Again leisure for 1 group opposed to state playoffs for the "school". I vote for the school. Now please OP correct me if I am wrong but this isn't a state sanctioned competion they are going to WDW for right?

 

[Kitty 34]

Hi. I'm back from our meeting. It was already set in stone that we were moving the trip...not a meeting to decide if we were. My mistake.

The band director and his wife did a lot of calling and we will be flying now, not taking busse (a plus) and cutting short our trip by two days (a minus )
We have decided to hold a parents meeting this coming Monday to drop the bomb that the trip has been changed and it will now cost $100 more. For families that have 4 and 5 members going....that's quite a jump especially when it's all due by Oct 22.

I told them the person that should actually start the meeting and weather all the "comments" that I'm sure will come down is our Super. The committee agreed!

To answer you, Foolishmortal. We were just going down to march so no it's not a state function at all.