Auto Bailout Talks Collapse

[jodifla]

I'm sure this has been brought up before, but in addition to the support that foreign governments give to their auto manufacturers, the US is the only country where manufacturers cover health care costs - in other countries the government pays for that - a HUGH disadvantage for US manufacturers.

Yes, but the American car company haters just ignore the fact!

(I do think that if you owned a K car or other similar GM products in the late/70s and early 80s it is totally understandable if you NEVER want to buy another GM product, by the way! Wanting the car companies dead for that is like justifiable homicide.)

 

[Galahad]

We need these companies for the jobs they create and can help us create in the future with electric cars and other new technology.

I agree we need these companies - at least in some form. But we don't need them to look like they do now - and in a radical way. I hope that President Obama's administration feels the same way.

 

[jodifla]

But the foreign manufactures that have plants here also provide health coverage to their workers. The disadvantage is not as huge as other disadvantages they have.

So for a small part of their work force, they have to pay health care. Lets' see how their balance sheet would look if they were forking over the whole bill for ALL their employees, and ALL their R&D as well!

 

[minnie61650]

But the foreign manufactures that have plants here also provide health coverage to their workers. The disadvantage is not as huge as other disadvantages they have.

The foreign manufactures that have plants here do not have hundrens of thousands retired employess.

 

[Galahad]

But GM has been the worlds' largest seller of cars..

But that's largely due to inertia. Sort of like the position IBM was in in the 1970's.

 

[ntsammy5]

But the foreign manufactures that have plants here also provide health coverage to their workers. The disadvantage is not as huge as other disadvantages they have.

No, what really hurts the Big 3 are the legacy costs for older employees and retirees - IMO that's the BIG problem to which the only solution is some sort of government intervention or Ch 11

 

[Galahad]

The foreign manufactures that have plants here do not have hundrens of thousands retired employess.

Yep. That's true. One of the problems with how the union contracts have harmed the very people they intend to protect.

 

[Galahad]

No, what really hurts the Big 3 are the legacy costs for older employees and retirees - IMO that's the BIG problem to which the only solution is some sort of government intervention or Ch 11

As long as that government intervention isn't simply transferring the consequences of those bad decisions to the government I agree. But we can't expect all suicidal contractual agreements to be made whole by Uncle Sam when it finally starts hurting badly.

 

[minnie61650]

I agree we need these companies - at least in some form. But we don't need them to look like they do now - and in a radical way. I hope that President Obama's administration feels the same way.

Actually over the past 8 years the Detroit 3 have been downsizing. Tens of thousands of jobs each year have been elimated though retirements, layoffs and buyouts. More than 70,000 jobs were eliminated in 2007.

I also pointed out that the Detroit 3 hourly pay is in line with US Toyota & US Honda.

GM, Ford, and Chrysler are much more streamlined and competive then they were five or ten years ago.

JMHO

 

[Galahad]

Actually over the past 8 years the Detroit 3 have been downsizing. Tens of thousands of jobs each year have been elimated though retirements, layoffs and buyouts. More than 70,000 jobs were eliminated in 2007.

I also pointed out that the Detroit 3 hourly pay is in line with US Toyota & US Honda.

GM, Ford, and Chrysler are much more streamlined and competive then they were five or ten years ago.

JMHO

Apparently it hasn't been enough. If I remember right, there are still quite a few union employees that still make significantly more than the US Toyota and Honda workers because the way the concessions were done - like phasing them in with new employees and such. It wouldn't take much to be more streamlined than they were 10 years ago. IMO, if the union wants to retain or gain the support of the public they need to be doing quite a different PR Job than they are doing. Just like it's understandable that a GM car owner from the 80's would never go back - i.e. GM cooked their goose with those buyers years ago, the unions may very well be perfectly reasonable now. But they have decades and decades of ill will to overcome.

 

[minnie61650]

Another interesting stat:

GM has cut its payroll drastically, by 45.8 percent in the U.S. alone since 2000. In fact, GM is far from the largest employer in the industry. With 252,000 employees worldwide, GM ranks fifth overall behind Volkswagen (373,400 employees,) Renault/Nissan (316,121 employees,) Toyota (316,121 employees) and Daimler (272,382 employees). Yet GM sold more vehicles worldwide last year than any other automaker.

 

[Galahad]

It is a pay site - and I wasn't inclined to pay but the Corporate Information Database shows Toyota with 299,394 employees and GM with 266,500 employees and also listed revenue and earnings per employee. For example, in 2007 Toyota had about $60,000 per employee final profit - or $170 million. Don't know what GM's was, but that seems a more meaningful number than how many cars they sell.

 

[minnie61650]

It is a pay site - and I wasn't inclined to pay but the Corporate Information Database shows Toyota with 299,394 employees and GM with 266,500 employees and also listed revenue and earnings per employee. For example, in 2007 Toyota had about $60,000 per employee final profit - or $170 million. Don't know what GM's was, but that seems a more meaningful number than how many cars they sell.

Is the $60,000 stat per U.S. employee ? Or for all the Toyota employees worldwide?

 

[Galahad]

Is the $60,000 stat per U.S. employee ? Or for all the Toyota employees worldwide?

All employees worldwide - which is what that 299K number is. The Corporate Information site listed all of the Japanese and German based companies with fewer employees that listed above and GM with more. The numbers were as of 2007.

 

[CarlaKay]

You've never offered proof that it is authentic.

You are the one who challenged this memo and so it is your burden. You and JonS99 are the only people that I have seen who doubt this memo and so you need to provide some proof. If you insist here is some great proof about this memo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucYEPLKGtPk

 

[Charade]

You are the one who challenged this memo and so it is your burden. You and JonS99 are the only people that I have seen who doubt this memo and so you need to provide some proof. If you insist here is some great proof about this memo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucYEPLKGtPk

Great proof? Same proof and still anonymous. Next...

 

[Galahad]

Why not argue the merits of killing or not killing the UAW rather than arguing about memos and politics?

 

[Charade]

Why not argue the merits of killing or not killing the UAW rather than arguing about memos and politics?

Don't you think we've covered that well enough after 19 pages? No one is going to change their mind. You're either pro union or your a hater.

 

[Galahad]

Don't you think we've covered that well enough after 19 pages? No one is going to change their mind. You're either pro union or your a hater.

Well, and the other 12 threads as well.

I don't much care whether there are senators whose motivations are political. Seems a silly thing really. I think auto workers would be better served by not being in a union - which I think is true for most "labor" unions and "professions" that have chosen to unionize. I think that "trade" unions are another matter but IMO, the developed world should have moved beyond this archaic and corrupt idea long ago.

 

[ntsammy5]

I've googled this and there is virtually nothing about it on the internet except from MSNBC and a reference to the LA Times. A lot of blogs have junk on it too - and I mean junk. There is NO credible evidence that if this exists that it was drafted and sent by the GOP. Utter BULL.

If true and/or meaningful it would have been all over the news. I despise this kind of reporting which is similar to all the crap reported by the conservative press about Obama. I am no fan of Obama but that stuff was unconscionable. This is no different