ATM theft

[RNMOM]

Hi folks! Haven't posted much lately. Not for any particular reason but now I have a question.

My oldest son went into the Army 7/24 and is still in holding. He needed some remedial PT and has passed that but is now waiting until a group gets called into basic for his MOS. Okay. I am beginning to understand this stuff and it SCARES me. He is training to be a cavalry scout and they want them all together if possible.

Well, he needed to have a checking account before he left for his paychecks to be deposited into. He had that, got the ATM card, activated it without making a deposit or withdrawl. His card was stollen from his locker when he was in the shower apparently. Somehow they got his pin number he had in some kind of holder on his dog tags. The person/people who stole his atm card took out 2 withdrawls of $500.00 each about 5 min. apart at the only atm at Fort Knox that does not have a camera. My son had only $90.63 in his account. The problem is now our bank is trying to make us responsible for the $1000.00 a theif OVERdrew on his account!!!!????? DH is also on son's account and has been going nuts trying to get this fixed. The bank won't stop withdrawing $30.00 fees every 4 days as the account is overdrawn until we put the money in to cover the overdraw that should not have been able to come out of the account in the first place.

Has anyone ever heard of a bank allowing you to withdraw over 10 times the amount of money there is in an account through an atm????? This is simply not right. The thing that really get me is they let them take it out twice.

The bank's statement on that is that sometimes "people really need the money". Ya think?? Well, I really need a fur coat, should I go overdraw my account to buy it???

I have asked him to contact the attorney general's office to see if there is anything they can do. Yes, my son filed a police report and even had to go speak with the base commander about it.

Mike has never withdrawn ANY money from this account with the atm card at all. He also has never deposited any money with the atm card. They are trying to imply this was done with his knowledge and permission. My son is restricted where he is allowed to go on the base and this is not one of the areas.

I am so mad right now I don't know what to do.

Does anyone have any ideas here? We live in Ohio and let me tell you as soon as this is resolved, we are pulling our CD's, three savings accounts and checking account out of this bank. Pronto.

 

[Mermaid02]

WOW! Obviously the criminal KNEW that ATM has no camera. I can't believe the bank would try to stick you/him with this. Let us know how you guys make out.

 

[RUDisney]

The banking regulation that covers electronic transactions is Regulation E. http://www.federalreserve.gov/regulations/title12/sec205/12cfr205_01.htm

It specifies what you must do and what the bank must do once you notify the bank that there has been fraudulent electronic activity to your account. It specifies that you must call the bank immediately upon finding the problem and that you must put your complaint in writing to them within 60 days of the activity. The address to which you must send the letter is typically on the back of the first page of your statement.

The fact that a bank would have an ATM with no camera is to me, a banker, who is involved with our ATMs, from a communications standpoint, at least, is ludicrous. I am not aware of any laws that require a camera at the machine, but it is certainly a "best practices" thing for any machine.

Anyway, your son was wrong for not selecting a PIN number that he would remember instead of writing it down and placing it where some crook could find it. That will be the bank's defense.

However, ATMs process transactions in one of two ways. Either the bank will have live balances at the machines, (the preferred method to limit the bank's risk,) or it will use a positive balance file (PBF.) A PBF is a file that is sent to the ATM switch (such as MAC, Star, etc.,) for it to use to authorize transactions. If your DS had $90 in his account, the PBF should have only allowed him to withdraw $90. The PBF file, since it is held at the switch, is updated with any ATM activity, so it should prevent someone from withdrawing his money at one machine and then going to another, or trying to w/d more from the same machine. A live file is held at the bank level and is updated with any activity that is conducted in the bank or at an ATM.

So, it sounds like the PBF and/or the live file was down. Banks, in the interest of customer service, allow customers to withdraw up to a specific amount of money when the system is down, as long as the customer goes to a working machine. It sounds like your bank has a $1,000 limit on this activity, hence the reason the criminals could get away with this.

Even if you requested that the bank lower your daily withdrawal threshhold, it wouldn't have made a difference in this case, since it sounds like the system was down.

So, write the letter to the bank and think about engaging an attorney to represent you, should it come down to the bank saying that they won't refund the money. Your DS, if liable for anything, should only be liable for the amount of money in his account. If the bank's system was down for balance inquiries, it surely wasn't your DS's fault that a robber was able to withdraw more than what he had in the account.

My caveat about banks all the time is this... if you are dealing with a super-regional bank, like PNC, Fleet, etc., you will not get very far due to their beuracracy, etc. If you deal with a community bank, you'll have a much better chance of resolving this to your satisfaction, even without engaging an attorney.

If you have any additional specific questions for me, you can ask them here, or PM me. I'll be happy to go to our electronic banking department, too, for more information for you... only problem with that is our e-banking manager is on vacation until next Tuesday, so some questions might take until next week to answer.

Good luck! And, don't worry about the finance charges associated with the overdraft, I can't say specifically where in Reg E it says it, but the bank is not allowed to charge you these while the transaction is under scrutiny. That's why I provided the link above, so you can also do your own research.

 

[mamajoan]

Hi........ I am so sorry to hear of your son's plight. You got great advice thus far.

I was just wondering what the response of your son's Drill Instructor had when your son reported the theft? Most of the time the DI will go ballistic and the criminal will be found,prosecuted and most likely rec'v a dishonerable discharge... especially since it was one of the guys in his group who most likely stole the card... and it was probably someone who had been around FORT KNOX for quite some time as they KNEW the location of the ATM without the camera.

Basic is tough enough.... I am so sorry your son's experience had to begin this way. A thought and a prayer that things go smoother for him in the future.

Joan

 

[jsmith]

Also if you need an attorney the JAG office at Fort Knox should supply your son with counsel since the problem occured on the base.

 

[DaveH]

Your son should if he has not already make his commander aware of the situation. They have experience in these things and should be able to help.

 

[Cinders]

Is the bank local to you or to where he is? If its in your town go into the main office personally and ask to speak to the person in charge of theft. I cant remember the name of this position but our credit union has one lady that handles this. A little more than a year ago we had someone on the east coast withdraw all of the money out of our checking account. They literally walked into a Police/Fireman's Credit Union and withdrew all but $5 out of our account. DH had to fill out a form that stated that we did not take the money ourselves and we had to prove it...which his boss verified him being at work that Monday and my charging gas locally showed I was in town and we filled out another form twice saying that we would allow the CR to prosecute the person if the FBI ever found the theif. Our CR lady told us everything would be covered by insurance to just let her know if any of the places where a check had bounced needed a letter of proof stating that it wasnt our fault. I also asked how this person could take our money since this wasnt even the same CR as ours. The CR there is a "sister" to our CR. They said it could have been 1 of 3 things they could think of....1 Someone had our account number and simply forged our names on the withdrawal slip. 2. They went in and randomly stated our account number and just got lucky since its a low number. 3. They could have hacked into our computer.....not possible since I have none of our banking information on my computer. I then asked why this person didnt have to show their DL since I get carded everytime I visit a branch that isnt my normal Friday one. They said the person could visit that branch and be familiar looking to them but very rarely do you get a teller that can put a face, name and account number all together with a customer. I asked if they had checked the security cameras from that CR (I really wanted to know if I knew this person) and was told the FBI would do that. We still have never heard anything from the FBI nor the CR saying if they caught the person.

If they treat you badly you need to remind them they are at fault too since their computers allowed the theif to overdraw the account not once but twice.

Then there's always the media...they'd love a story about a military person having money stolen and the bank not taking any of the blame.

 

[floridafam]

Does the ATM card have a Visa logo on it.

I think if it does, this may be helpful in some way.

I don't know but it is worth checking out-they have different rules about fraud.

 

[RNMOM]

WOW. You guys are fantastic. Thanks for all the information and offers of assistance. They are really appreciated.

Yes, we sent the letter off. I discovered the theft as DS had no need to use his ATM card. His bank sent an overdraft statement two days after the occurance. DH called the bank and they were to send out the form for us to fill out. That was last Tues. By last Friday we had not gotten the form and he called again only to find there was no notation on the account of any problem. The person he spoke with sent the form and we returned it the next day. Police reports were filed at Ft. Knox and the commander is aware. DS worked with his sargent to make a list of people who had been at the base but "left" up until the time of the theft. I even was able to get the exact times of the two withdrawls and the transaction numbers. We bank at Charter One.

As far as an attourney, can we use an out of state lawyer? We have a SIL who I am sure would be happy to write a few letters, as needed. If not, do we have to go through the JAG office at Ft. Knox as it happened on a military base? So many questions.

Thanks for the input about banking laws. That is so helpful. All of you are wonderful and I will let you know what comes of it.

I had such a hard time "letting go" of this boy and now I am having to dive in again. I don't mind but this has been a really tough summer emotionally for me. I am about ready to twist off a few heads...better keep out of the bank!

 

[floridaminnie]

The form should be a fraud affidavidt for the bank. All OD fees should be on hold until the bank can investigate. Did he report his ATM missing right away. If not, that might be used against him unfortuntaly. I hope the best for you both!

 

[RNMOM]

Yes, that was the form we filled out.

No, he did not realize it was missing from his wallet. He is in basic training and has no need to go into his wallet even daily. He had it in a locker, I believe it was locked. None the less, someone went into his personal space and stole it.

Again, this kid never used the atm except to put it into the machine the day he got it for activation purposes only. He never took any money out and put none in. The card arrived the day before he left for the Army so he did not have much time for any of that. He was still 17 and DH had to sign for him to get an atm card through our bank. It was a Mastercard Debit/atm card.

 

[RNMOM]

Yes, that was the form we filled out.

No, he did not realize it was missing from his wallet. He is in basic training and has no need to go into his wallet even daily. He had it in a locker, I believe it was locked. None the less, someone went into his personal space and stole it.

Again, this kid never used the atm except to put it into the machine the day he got it for activation purposes only. He never took any money out and put none in. The card arrived the day before he left for the Army so he did not have much time for any of that. He was still 17 and DH had to sign for him to get an atm card through our bank. It was a Mastercard Debit/atm card.

 

[christineann]

My debit card # was recently stolen and used to charge cell phone minutes to a California company, Boost Mobile. I got on the website for one of the major credit reporting companies and put a "credit fraud alert" on my records, and they have notified the other major agencies also. This requires any company opening an account in my name to call me at my home phone number (only) to verify identity. This is very important, because some criminals open up credit card accounts and change the mailing address and phone number on the account, and by the time the victim finds out, there is a real mess to clean up. Please remind your son to do this asap. I feel so bad for him!

The third time I called Boost to get my money back, the customer rep said "Yeah we could all use an extra $50". I pointed out to her that the $50 was extra for THEM and that they allowed someone to use my number even though the name on the cell phone account didn't match the name on the card. She said that they have so many charges like this that they don't bother to check or to prosecute fraudulent charges. Nice reputable way to do business. .....not. Grrrrrrrrr

 

[RUDisney]

Having a Visa or MasterCard logo on your ATM card only offers you protection from V or MC when you (or someone else) uses the card as a debit card, not as an ATM card, so the fight is with the bank alone.

I don't see why you couldn't use your SIL for a letter. She'd know best. Often times people, companies, including banks, go out of town for counsel when special expertise or experience is needed.

 

[RUDisney]

How are things going this week with your DS's problems? Anything new?