Are we (Americans) too "Scarlett O'Hara"?

[minniepumpernickel]

Originally posted by kild
You're kidding, right? I didn't andvocate S&M and I am against rape and torture just as much as the next person. I am just saying that from what I have read and looked at with my own eyes, not copy and pasted from an article, that I didn't see anything that was too bad. True, I haven't seen all of the pictures and they may very well be horrific, but I have not seen that yet.

No, we don't sanction that type of behavior in our prisons, but we don't jump up and down talking about how horrible the conditions are either. I haven't seen CBS talking about the people that are sodomized in our own prisons or the inhumane treatment there.

Also, if you think the US has not been involved in torture or inhumane treatment, then you are wrong.
Freedom doesn't come easy and war isn't pretty. Our country has done what it needed to do to protect our interests and so has most other countries with the political and military power to do so.
I'm not saying it is right, but it happens. And if it keeps happening to keep another 9/11 from taking place or thousands of innocent people from being abused and killed, then so be it.

I think that you are interesting to talk to, and we can kind of switch from one topic to the next on the CB. This is kind of nice, because my mind works that way anyway.

Well, I have a close friend that is Captain of the guards at a county prison. So I end up talking about this subject more than I want to. He runs a tight ship, and would never tolerate abuses like we had going on at Abu Ghraib. Amnesty International advocates are constantly coming in to visit the prisoners, along with the Red Cross,and religious leaders.

We have laws and due process here. Would you want us to do away with those? If someone is abused they have the right to do something about it legally.

Are you referring to My Lei, and Viet Nam? Atleast when that hapenned we got it out in the open, and did something about it.

Hope that I didn't insult you, I'm just a bit of a news junkee. I've been following it all, believe me.

 

[Briar Rose 7457]

the Nazis justified their barbaric behavior on the grounds that the Jews were terrorists and enemies of the state who would destroy Germany.

(but then, doesn't that kind of rationalization go back to biblical times? read Exodus sometime -- Pharoah decreed that all male Hebrew infants would be drowned in the Nile because someday the Hebrews might join with an enemy of Egypt...)

no, we have not sunk to that level of barbarism. yet. but when you start to rationalize and justify barbaric behaviior, you've put yourself on a slippery slope, and there's no telling how low you'll go.

 

[crazyforgoofy]

Originally posted by Briar Rose 7457
the Nazis justified their barbaric behavior on the grounds that the Jews were terrorists and enemies of the state who would destroy Germany.

(but then, doesn't that kind of rationalization go back to biblical times? read Exodus sometime -- Pharoah decreed that all male Hebrew infants would be drowned in the Nile because someday the Hebrews might join with an enemy of Egypt...)

no, we have not sunk to that level of barbarism. yet. but when you start to rationalize and justify barbaric behaviior, you've put yourself on a slippery slope, and there's no telling how low you'll go.

Briar Rose,

 

[kild]

minniepumpernickel,
No, I am not insulted at all. I love talking about things with different opinions being thrown around. I actually learn a lot from debates like this. Also, I hope I haven't offended you, because I am not trying to.

I have a ton of respect for your friend that is the Captian of the gaurds. That is the way things are supposed to be handled. But we know that there are gaurds that look the other way when things happen. I don't think the warden of a prison would tell other prisoners to do anything like this, just like our President and SoD didn't tell these soldiers to do this. Someone in the chain of command may have given the order to cause physical harm to make the prisoners talk and that is wrong, but calling for the resignation of Rumsfield is too much.

I would not want the due process or our laws done away with, but I do know that there are times that this country has had to break its own laws in its defense. We have rules of engagement that we follow even when our enemy doesn't, but certian situations require us to go beyond that. The majority of the time, the enemy causes us to break those rules.

We know what happened in Vietnam and we did make an effort to control it, but those things did continue to happen. During extreme times, a person can lose all sensitivity to other humans and Vietnam is a good example of that.

Another poster said that we expect this time of behavior from terrorists. Talking about the beheading of Nick Berg. True, we may expect it, but why wouldn't we become outraged about it? This was an innocent life that was brutally taken away. As a country we should be outraged that this happened, not only to another human, but one of our countrymen. Getting upset about abuse, but not murder just baffles my logic.

 

[stitch79]

Another poster said that we expect this time of behavior from terrorists. Talking about the beheading of Nick Berg. True, we may expect it, but why wouldn't we become outraged about it? This was an innocent life that was brutally taken away. As a country we should be outraged that this happened, not only to another human, but one of our countrymen. Getting upset about abuse, but not murder just baffles my logic. [/B]

 

[Miss Jasmine]

Originally posted by kild
Getting upset about abuse, but not murder just baffles my logic.

Who is doing that?

 

[Popsicle]

ckr, in answer to your original question, I say "Yes." We in this country must be politically correct even unto death.

I'm sorry, but a group of TERRORISTS being embarrassed, or nipped at or bitten by a dog is not barbaric. The majority of our current population has forgotten or never heard of real barbaric acts.... like the ones perpetuated by the Nazis of 60 years ago, or those of Hussein just one year ago.

I don't know where people get the idea that if we're nice to someone, they'll be nice back. Sometimes that works, sometimes that doesn't. With the people doing the fighting overseas whether in Iraq or Israel, if you reach out your hand in kindness, you'll likely draw back a nub where the hand used to be.

It would be wonderful if all the world were full of kind people who respond to empathetic gestures, but it isn't. And I firmly believe the people who are screaming the loudest about the deaths of our military people, are the same ones crying over this "barbaric behaviour" of our fighting people. How do you think intelligence is gathered? If you ask pretty please with sugar on top you'll get a truthful answer? Give me a break.

I'll bet Nicholas Berg's family would be more than willing to trade the "outrage" suffered upon the Iraqis for what their loved one endured.

 

[Shannon G]

I don't remember a big outcry when Dahmer was murdered in prison.

Wasn't Dahmer killed by another inmate, not by the guards?

 

[Miss Jasmine]

Hmmm I remember my Lord saying something about turning your other cheek. But I digress. There are things that are morally acceptable. The treatment of Iraqi or US prisoners (detainees, etc.) in this way is not morally acceptable, at least not for me. I am not saying this out of political correctness. I am not saying this as a means to be nice. My stance is based on morality. I value all human life.

 

[wvrevy]

Originally posted by Popsicle
And I firmly believe the people who are screaming the loudest about the deaths of our military people, are the same ones crying over this "barbaric behaviour" of our fighting people.

Gee, ya think ? Not sure how that's supposed to be such a bad thing...I'm furious that our soldiers are continuing to be offered as easy targets, and I'm angry that a few idiots - including those who gave the orders, if they existed - have committed acts such as that IN MY NAME, as an American.

Whatever happened to "Death before dishonor" ? Are you people so frightened that you'd have the US put itself on the same level as the animals we're fighting, just to "protect us" from them ? Do you think that brutality is going to solve anything ? If that were your brother, father, or uncle on the leash in that picture, do you think it would make you think "go USA" or would it make you want to hurt someone in return ? Would it make you MORE or LESS likely to sympathize with the terrorists and insurgents ?

The fact that people continue to fail to see the egregiousness of these abusive acts against Muslim men and women simply astounds me. I guess too many people have just REALLY drank the kool-aid

 

[Bob Slydell]

Originally posted by kild
Another poster said that we expect this time of behavior from terrorists. Talking about the beheading of Nick Berg. True, we may expect it, but why wouldn't we become outraged about it? This was an innocent life that was brutally taken away. As a country we should be outraged that this happened, not only to another human, but one of our countrymen. Getting upset about abuse, but not murder just baffles my logic.

That poster didn't say they weren't outraged by it.

I still have yet to see some sort of proof as to this supposed lack of outrage over the death of Nick Berg. A number of people have asked where you got that idea, but I've yet to see you say why you think there's no outrage??

 

[kild]

Miss Jasmine,

Originally posted by Briar Rose 7457
it looks to me like the abuse was more systemic than just a handful of soldiers making dirty photos.


no one is "outraged" because we expect terrorists to commit atrocities.


we don't expect US soldiers to do so.

Shannon G,

Originally posted by Shannon G
Wasn't Dahmer killed by another inmate, not by the guards?

You're right, guess that makes it ok.

Bob,

Originally posted by Briar Rose 7457
no one is "outraged" because we expect terrorists to commit atrocities.

That is what I was talking about. The proof was there before I made my comment. Maybe I should have worded my reply different, instead of saying, "as a country," I should have made it more direct to the poster.

 

[Briar Rose 7457]

Yit-ga-dal ve-yit-kadash she-mei ra-ba, Be-al-ma di-ve-ra
chi-re-u-tei, ve-yam-lich
mal-chu-tei, Be-cha-yei-chon u-ve-yo-mei-chon u-ve-cha-yei
de-chol beit Yis-raeil,
Ba-aga-la u-vi-ze-man ka-riv, ve-i-me-ru: a-mein.



Magnified and sanctified be the great name of God throughout the world which He hath created according to His will. May He establish His kingdom during the days of your life and during the life of all the house of Israel, speedily, yea, soon; and say ye, Amen.


Ye-hei she-mei ra-ba me-va-rach, le-a-lam u-le-al-mei
al-ma-ya.

May His great name be blessed for ever and ever.

Yit-ba-rach ve-yish-ta-bach, ve-yit-pa-ar ve-yit-ro-mam,
Ve-yit-na-sei ve-yit-ha-dar, ve-yit-a-leh, ve-yit-ha-lal
she-mei de-ku-de-sha, be-rich hu,
Le-ei-la min kol bir-cha-ta ve-shi-ra-ta, tush-be-cha-ta
Ve-ne-che-ma-ta, daa-mi-ran be-al-ma ve-i-me-ru: a-mein.
Ye-hei she-la-ma ra-ba min she-ma-ya ve-cha-yim a-lei-nu
Ve-al kol Yis-ra-eil ve-i-me-ru: a-mein.
O-seh sha-lom bim-ro-mav, hu ya-a-seh sha-lom alei-nu
Ve-al kol Yis-ra-eil, ve-i-me-ru: a-mein.



ok, now that you've reminded me to say Kaddish for Berg...his funeral is tomoorw...

let me quote Deuteronomy: Justice, justice shalt thou pursue.



I want justice for Berg. I don't want atrocities committed in my name or on my behalf.

 

[Shannon G]

Wasn't Dahmer killed by another inmate, not by the guards?

You're right, guess that makes it ok.

Thanks for the sarcasm, but I never said that it was okay. However, I fail to see what Dahmer's murder has to do with the treatment of Iraqi prisoners. The Iraqis were mistreated by guards, who took advantage of their position of authority (whether based on orders from higher up or not) over the inmates. Such treatment of prisoners by US soldiers acting in their capacity as US soldiers is a far cry from the murder of one inmate by another.

 

[CookieGVB]

Originally posted by crazyforgoofy
CBS would be talking about it if the PEOPLE RUNNING THE PRISONS were the ones sodomizing prisoners in the US, dontcha think?

If you think that never happens, you're mistaken.

Remember the HBO series, Oz?

ETA: In no way am I condoning the soldiers' actions - just wanted to point that out.

 

[Briar Rose 7457]

if we lose our humanity, does the rest really matter?

 

[kild]

Originally posted by Shannon G
Thanks for the sarcasm, but I never said that it was okay. However, I fail to see what Dahmer's murder has to do with the treatment of Iraqi prisoners. The Iraqis were mistreated by guards, who took advantage of their position of authority (whether based on orders from higher up or not) over the inmates. Such treatment of prisoners by US soldiers acting in their capacity as US soldiers is a far cry from the murder of one inmate by another.

It this context it really isn't a far cry. If we are debating humane treatment, shouldn't that include the citizens of the country as well? Is there a difference between torture from a soldier or from another citizen?
Do both the prisoner and the soldier represent our country? If they do, can you say that the crime of one is not as severe as the same crime of the other?

Also, I actually meant the sarcasm to be more lighthearted than it came across. There was no intention to upset or offend.

 

[Shannon G]

It this context it really isn't a far cry. If we are debating humane treatment, shouldn't that include the citizens of the country as well? Is there a difference between torture from a soldier or from another citizen?

Okay, then let's treat them equally. Dahmer's killer was tried and is currently serving a life sentence.

 

[Briar Rose 7457]

the crime of someone in uniform, sworn to uphold the law, is more shocking than the crime of someone already convicted of a previous felony. our expectations are that the one in uniform who takes an oath to uphold the law will not violate it.

 

[kild]

Briar , I agree with you. But, below is what I am talking about

The tape showed inmates forced to strip and lie on the ground. A police dog attacked several prisoners; the tape clearly showed one being bitten on the leg. Guards prodded prisoners with stun guns and forced them to crawl along the ground. Then they dragged injured inmates face down back to their cells

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A11388-2004May8.html

Sounds pretty bad. This was in Texas. It was in the news and is now in the national news.
Again, where is the outcry for human rights? Why are people not as upset about this as they are about the Iraqi situation?