Are we (Americans) too "Scarlett O'Hara"?

[ckr]

So, how do we get information?

While I agree that (from the Geneva Convention) "physical mutilation, biological experiments, violence" are barbaric, how is it expected that information would be obtained from captured prisoners if not from "intimidation, insults, and " (possibly) "public curiosity." ?

Are we tying our own hands in this battle?

 

[Miss Jasmine]

WOW, I didn't know making a statement about what happened to those prisoners equaled not having outraged feelings about Nick Berg. That is quite the leap. I was (am) absolutely SICK over that. Human lives are precious.

 

[minniepumpernickel]

Originally posted by ckr
So, how do we get information?

While I agree that (from the Geneva Convention) "physical mutilation, biological experiments, violence" are barbaric, how is it expected that information would be obtained from captured prisoners if not from "intimidation, insults, and " (possibly) "public curiosity." ?

Are we tying our own hands in this battle?

It's spelled out in the geneva convention. Things like, isolation, sleep deprevation, sensory deprivation, different types of conditioning methods....

Not torture, for god's sake! What type of Christians are you?

 

[Briar Rose 7457]

if we violate our own standards, are we in a position to protest when others commit atrocities?

 

[ckr]

Hasn't "war" changed considerably since the Geneva Convention? It is no longer the military of two sovereign nation's going up against one another. We no longer "hold" their prisoners until the battles are over and then swap theirs for ours.

It is no longer possible for one "side" to surrender and there be an end to the war. We will never see "Victory in Middle East" Day.

Do the rules of combat need to be updated to fit the new, horrible, circumstances? Somtimes you can't continue to "fight fair" and still expect to survive.

 

[Toby'sFriend]

War may have changed, but I would have hoped standards of human decency would have improved.

The stories and pictures appearing from that prison are nothing short of barbaric and disgusting. There is no justifying by giving stories of what has happened to other prisoners. There is no explaining it as an "interrogation" technique.

 

[minniepumpernickel]

Heres a link from the DB, about the dirty stuff

http://www.nypost.com/news/nationalnews/20802.html

 

[Briar Rose 7457]

if we violate all that we hold sacred in terms of freedom, decency and fair play, do we "deserve" to survive? or are we as bad as those we profess to label "enemy" and "barbarian"? are you willing to give up your civil liberties and reside in a totalitarian state in order to "survive"? if we resort to savagery in order to obtain information, what in G-d's name are we trying to preserve anyhow?

the latest news: NY POST

the Post is a "rag", but still...

 

[snoopy]

Its ludicrous to deny that its anything but torture. If we as Americans don't recognize this, then the terrorists have indeed won.

 

[stitch79]

I never said that what happened to the detainees was excusable because of what happened to Nick Berq, please don't put words in my mouth. My point was that everyone seems to be so focused on what happed in that prison that the outrage that should be expressed about what is going on again and again to Americans over there seems to be absent.

A small number of soliders were responsible for the abuses at that prison, and that should be investigated and punishments given; but I don't think that it should have been made into the huge issue that it has become. I think the country should still be focused on finding the large amount of terrorists that are still out there and continue to terrorize people every day. We are at war and how that war is being fought each day should be the focus, not airing new photos of this prison incident every day.

The article from the Dallas Morning News sums up my point very well....

The image you see here depicts an al-Qaeda terrorist brandishing the severed head of American hostage Nick Berg as a trophy of war. This is who the enemy is. This is what our nation is up against...............
Presenting this photograph, which was taken from an al-Qaeda-affiliated Web site, is important because of the power of image to shape public opinion. Shocking photographs have driven the Abu Ghraib prison atrocity story, which has now become a national crisis of confidence in this nation's civilian and military leadership, and the mission in Iraq. If we show you images of Abu Ghraib abuses, and of soldiers' coffins at Dover Air Force base because we think you should know the truth about this war, then we should show you this image, too.

Publishing this photo in no way justifies what happened in Abu Ghraib, nor does it lessen America's responsibility to bring those responsible for perpetrating those acts to justice, and to atone for those wrongs. It is meant to bring perspective to events in Iraq, to refocus the nation's eyes on the larger picture of the war against radical Islam, and its stakes.

 

[Miss Jasmine]

the war against radical Islam, and its stakes.

I didn't realize we are at war against a religion, I thought it was the war on terrorism.

 

[stitch79]

Originally posted by Miss Jasmine
I didn't realize we are at war against a religion, I thought it was the war on terrorism.

Thats why they called it radical Islam since that is where all of the terrorists are coming from. Notice they didn't just say the "Nation of Islam" or all people who practice Islam.

 

[Briar Rose 7457]

it looks to me like the abuse was more systemic than just a handful of soldiers making dirty photos.


no one is "outraged" because we expect terrorists to commit atrocities.


we don't expect US soldiers to do so.

 

[ckr]

So, next a lonely, homesick soldier who wants to be discharged sends home pics of one of our soldiers shooting a child. His body lay there bleeding and it looks as though he slowly bleeds to death.

It was not explained by the lonely soldier to the family in their comfortable air conditioned home that the photos don't show that the boy is strapped with explosives and he was gunned down as he approached the soldier's position. That he was not given medical attention for fear of the explosives. See that would not help get the lonely soldier discharged. But "exposing" how bad it is "over there" might get him home.

Would we then be calling for the soldier who shot the boy to rot in jail? Call him savage? Barbarian? Would we call on our military to discontinue all use of lethal force? "Please refrain from using real ammunition. It hurts people. And don't drive the big tanks around, they're kind of intimidating. If we go around hurting and intimidating people, we're no better than they are."

Can't you see how lame we would be? While I don't ever want to "fight" because we hate a group of people, I don't see how we can avoid doing ugly things in order to defend ourselves.

 

[Miss Jasmine]

And what exactly is radical and what is not radical? And does a terrorist HAVE to be a person of radical Islam? Radical is a subjective word. When you use subjective words, you open yourself to a lot of different interpretations. A terrorist is a terrorist.

 

[minniepumpernickel]

Originally posted by stitch79
Thats why they called it radical Islam since that is where all of the terrorists are coming from. Notice they didn't just say the "Nation of Islam" or all people who practice Islam.

Yeah, but we have different sects of radical Islamists,and they aren't sure who is united with whom. Like the guy who killed Mr. Berg, they aren't sure if he is affiliated with Bin Laden, or if he started his own sect.

We also have Hamas,and Hezbollah, although I guess they just target one of our allies. What about all of those Irish/ English groups that others speak of on here?

 

[stitch79]

The term radical Islam as referred to in the article was directed to the form of Islam that is practiced by the terrorists that we are after right now. I had no trouble recognizing that fact in the article since it was used in that context. I can see your point, but you can say that about just about anything when any word is taken out of the context that it is used.

 

[Briar Rose 7457]

Originally posted by ckr
So, next a lonely, homesick soldier who wants to be discharged sends home pics of one of our soldiers shooting a child. His body lay there bleeding and it looks as though he slowly bleeds to death.

It was not explained by the lonely soldier to the family in their comfortable air conditioned home that the photos don't show that the boy is strapped with explosives and he was gunned down as he approached the soldier's position. That he was not given medical attention for fear of the explosives. See that would not help get the lonely soldier discharged. But "exposing" how bad it is "over there" might get him home.

Would we then be calling for the soldier who shot the boy to rot in jail? Call him savage? Barbarian? Would we call on our military to discontinue all use of lethal force? "Please refrain from using real ammunition. It hurts people. And don't drive the big tanks around, they're kind of intimidating. If we go around hurting and intimidating people, we're no better than they are."

Can't you see how lame we would be? While I don't ever want to "fight" because we hate a group of people, I don't see how we can avoid doing ugly things in order to defend ourselves.

If a child walks in with a bomb strapped to him -- call Mossad and Shin Bet and the IDF. they know how to handle that sort of thing.

they diffuse the bomb. they don't kill the child.


Bobm diffused

JERUSALEM - Israeli soldiers disarmed a bomb carried by a 14-year-old Palestinian boy wearing a suicide belt Wednesday. It is the latest example of Palestinian terrorist groups using children in suicide attacks.

I hear the sound of stormtroopers coming to take away our civil liberties and our sense of decency in order to "preserve" them.

 

[kild]

Originally posted by minniepumpernickel
We are Americans, we do not rape and torture people. Why lower yourself to their level?

We don't sanction that type of behaviour in our own prisons.

Ugh, I'm sticking to the debate board. Atleast they aren't advocating S&M!

You're kidding, right? I didn't andvocate S&M and I am against rape and torture just as much as the next person. I am just saying that from what I have read and looked at with my own eyes, not copy and pasted from an article, that I didn't see anything that was too bad. True, I haven't seen all of the pictures and they may very well be horrific, but I have not seen that yet.

No, we don't sanction that type of behavior in our prisons, but we don't jump up and down talking about how horrible the conditions are either. I haven't seen CBS talking about the people that are sodomized in our own prisons or the inhumane treatment there.

Also, if you think the US has not been involved in torture or inhumane treatment, then you are wrong.
Freedom doesn't come easy and war isn't pretty. Our country has done what it needed to do to protect our interests and so has most other countries with the political and military power to do so.
I'm not saying it is right, but it happens. And if it keeps happening to keep another 9/11 from taking place or thousands of innocent people from being abused and killed, then so be it.

 

[crazyforgoofy]

Originally posted by kild
You're kidding, right? I didn't andvocate S&M and I am against rape and torture just as much as the next person. I am just saying that from what I have read and looked at with my own eyes, not copy and pasted from an article, that I didn't see anything that was too bad. True, I haven't seen all of the pictures and they may very well be horrific, but I have not seen that yet.

No, we don't sanction that type of behavior in our prisons, but we don't jump up and down talking about how horrible the conditions are either. I haven't seen CBS talking about the people that are sodomized in our own prisons or the inhumane treatment there.

Also, if you think the US has not been involved in torture or inhumane treatment, then you are wrong.
Freedom doesn't come easy and war isn't pretty. Our country has done what it needed to do to protect our interests and so has most other countries with the political and military power to do so.
I'm not saying it is right, but it happens. And if it keeps happening to keep another 9/11 from taking place or thousands of innocent people from being abused and killed, then so be it.

CBS would be talking about it if the PEOPLE RUNNING THE PRISONS were the ones sodomizing prisoners in the US, dontcha think?

My concern is that the horrific treatment of the prisoners in Iraq won't keep another 9/11 from happening BUT CAUSE IT TO HAPPEN AGAIN and again as more people come to see the U S as a super power gone mad.