Are the Days of Walking a DVC Reservation Numbered?

[Sandisw]

It also doesn't say that you are allowed any particular types of modifications or unlimited modifications either. That's just how the system currently handles it. The only thing it says is what happens to your points when you modify, whether they will go into holding or not, etc.

Because of how they are written, you wouldn't be violating the rule when modifying anyway, you would be violating the rules based upon your actual check in date in mind when you make the first reservation before you even modify it at all. Then they just don't stop you from modifying when they could if they wanted to or if they actually programmed the system to.

There certainly is an argument that walking gives an advantage, otherwise nobody would walk...

The other scenarios you mention are all people booking 100% within the rules as written and within the current spirit of the rules as well. There may very well always be an advantage for some with faster internet, better working hours, retirees who can check more often, etc... But as long as all of those advantages are things that aren't against the rules, they are 100% better than walking or doing anything else against the letter and/or spirit of the rules to gain an unfair advantage against those that book according to the rules only.

I've seen the quotes from the meetings, they did say it was at least against the spirit of the rules, without mention of the letter of the rules. They barely comment on anything so just saying "they didn't say we couldn't" is a very weak argument

"we’re looking at different solutions as Yvonne mentioned. How do we maintain the spirit of what we want, which is fewer calls into the reservation center [or going online] to make the booking. But at the same time, make sure we aren’t creating any unintended consequences"

I took this to mean that they are looking into ways to enforce the actual rules (that includes no walking) without making even more problems for themselves.

I just can't believe that people still think that walking is technically within the rules when

1. DVC confirmed it is against the spirit of the rules (what they actually want and meant)
2. DVC confirmed it only exists because of an "unintended consequence" of changing from check out booking to check out booking
3. It is excluded from the very specific booking windows mentioned in the home resort rules and regs

And the only argument they have for it is

1. "well they didn't specify exactly that I can't do this very particular thing so it must be okay"

SMH

The home resort rules and regulations actually say you can make and modify reservations.

It says that if you do it within 31 days, there is a penalty attached to your points.

Absence of language that limits modification means there is no limitation.

I am not saying DVC can’t add one…they can.,, but the current home resort rules do not include it.

I’ll go back to the board comment again. They indicated that it’s a consequence of the current rules…and that the reason they are considering changing things IS because the rules currently in effect allow it.

That is the point. If the current rules prohibited it, as written, there would be no need for a change to the policy…it would be simple enforcement issue.

The law requires the home resort rules and regulations to be clear.

That is why the board used the word spirit of the rule because their are owners who are upset that the current rules allow for it.

When you violate the spirit of a policy, it’s means you aren’t doing anything technically wrong but maybe not using it in the way they wanted you to use it.

 

[Chili327]

Good lord, has anyone here actually come close to doing to this?! When I hear about walking, I'm thinking a couple of days to a couple of weeks. Am I that naive?

I would think you are right, but we may both be naïve. lol

 

[Genie+]

OK last one and then I am done. I'm having too much fun.

Alumni Blues

"Yesterday mornin', my old lady threw me out into the cold, cold street,
Yesterday mornin', my old lady threw me out into the cold, cold street
I had no hat on my head,
And no shoes on my head Copper Creek Studio for my bed

But I'm alright
But I'm alright
But I'm alright
But I'm alright, now
'Cause I got a degree Confirmed Reservation Rental"

Things look so bad everywhere
In this vacation club, what is fair
We walk behind and we try to see
Falling behind in what could be, oh

Bring me a Longer Walk
Bring me a Longer Walk, oo oh
Bring me a Longer Walk, (think about it)
A longer walk I keep thinking of

 

[Tatebeck]

The home resort rules and regulations actually say you can make and modify reservations.

It says that if you do it within 31 days there is a penalty.

Absence of language regarding limiting modification means there is no limitation.

I am not saying DVC can’t add one…they can.,, but the current home resort rules do not include it.

And if there is no rule against unlimited modifications, then doing it is expressly allowed.

I’ll go back to the board comment again. They indicated that it’s a consequence of the current rules…and that the reason they are considering changing things IS because the rules as written don’t stop it.

That is the point. If the current rules prohibited it, as written, there would be no need for a change to the policy…it would be simple enforcement issue.

The law requires the home resort rules and regulations to be clear.

That is why the board used the word spirit because their are owners who are upset that the current rules allow for it.

But it doesn't say that you can do it infinitely. And even if it did, like I said, the modification is not what is against the rules, the act of booking when not within 11+7 of your dates is what is against the rules.

"I’ll go back to the board comment again. They indicated that it’s a consequence of the current BOOKING SYSTEM…and that the reason they are considering changing things IS because the BOOKING SYSTEM doesn’t stop it. " - Fixed that for you

The rules and regulations ARE very clear. Is the date you want to check in 11 months or less away? If not then you CANNOT book yet. THAT IS THE RULE. If you go ahead and book then you have broken the rules as written and in spirit. They give no exceptions.

People are willfully misrepresenting it because they want to walk reservations lol

 

[dvcsince93]

This argument is flawed because the exact argument can be made against any booking. I can log in at 11Months and not have same chance to book room since someone previously booked it at 11Months +7 even if it’s not a walked reservation. In fact they could technically block out to +30 days or whatever max length stay is and block me without being a walk of any kind.

I don't think you can block out any future days beyond the +7, but you can make a 30 day reservation including the +7 days. And if they are intending to use that reservation-all the power to them- that is both the rule and the intent of the rule. That is why reservations for any particular time are not guaranteed.

You can try and spin it however you want and you can continue to offer all of the rationalizations and non sequiturs. The facts remain the same- you are choosing to make a reservation at 11 months that you have no intent of keeping. Because you make these reservations, people who actually want the unit doesn't have access to it.

This is a point based vacation club- it has both upsides and downsides, you want all of the upsides for yourself and push all the downsides to everyone else.

I find it fascinating that you constantly try to buttress your position with the argument that there are no rules against it. However, its clear you feel justified to do it. So, even with a rule, if the software doesn't prevent it, walking will continue and next year we will hear a new set of excuses.

 

[davidhr]

The rules and regulations ARE very clear. Is the date you want to check in 11 months or less away? If not then you CANNOT book yet. THAT IS THE RULE

I have to admit this is the most entertaining take I’ve read in these threads through the years.

 

[Sandisw]

But it doesn't say that you can do it infinitely. And even if it did, like I said, the modification is not what is against the rules, the act of booking when not within 11+7 of your dates is what is against the rules.

"I’ll go back to the board comment again. They indicated that it’s a consequence of the current SYSTEM…and that the reason they are considering changing things IS because the SYSTEM don’t stop it. " - Fixed that for you

The rules and regulations ARE very clear. Is the date you want to check in 11 months or less away? If not then you cannot book yet. THAT IS THE RULE

People are willfully misrepresenting it because they want to walk reservations lol

I go in today and book November 1st to November 7th…that’s when I want to go.

In 5 days, I decide that I want to go a week later because I changed my mind…because I am allowed to do that…now I am booking my desired date.

A few days later, I change my mind again because my husband wants to try and go on Thanksgiving

By the end of the week, I realize that doesn’t make sense, so I really want to go the first week in December…so I move again.

Now I am happy…this is obviously an exaggeration but the point is that no one, including DVC gets to say my intent was never to go to begin with on my original dates…and that is why you can’t have subjective rules.

If DVC adds language that says, “you can’t modify your trip x, y or x, then it doesn’t matter why I change my mind”.

And yes, the system doesn’t stop you from unlimited modifications because the rules allow it…again, if it is a system glitch…which is what I think you are implying, all DVC has to do is fix that without updates to the rules.

We simply don’t see it the same way. What I can say that is they decide to do something and they update the language of the home resort rules and regulations, then it supports the current rules allowed it and the new ones won’t.

 

[tx911]

I would think you are right, but we may both be naïve. lol

I don't think walking for months is unusual for certain room types at certain resorts.

 

[Tatebeck]

I go in today and book November 1st to November 7th…that’s when I want to go.

In 5 days, I decided that I want to go a week later because I changed my mind…because I am allowed to do that…now I am booking my desired date.

A few days later, I change my mind again because my husband wants to try and go on Thanksgiving

By the end of the week, I realize that doesn’t make sense, so I really want to go the first week in December…so I move again

Now I am happy…this is obviously an exaggeration but the point is that no one, including DVC gets to say my intent was never to go to begin with on my original dates…and that is why you can’t have subjective rules.

If this actually happened, while it is unlikely like you say, it is within the rules.

At no point did you book a room without your desired check in date (at the time) being within the 11 month window.

They HAVE definitely made it difficult to DETERMINE who broke the rules because the only person that knows 100% what the intent was at the time of the booking is the member.

So if they want to fix it (even without changing the rules as written!) they would be able to change how the system handles bookings and/or modifications, or choose to look at modifications after the fact and cancel reservations or punish members/restrict memberships that they feel have blatantly broken the rules.

Take your example. While unlikely it could happen once. Now if something similar happens to that same members reservations, multiple times a year, for multiple years, it is much less likely to be a coincidence.

 

[Tatebeck]

The rules and regulations ARE very clear. Is the date you want to check in 11 months or less away? If not then you CANNOT book yet. THAT IS THE RULE

I have to admit this is the most entertaining take I’ve read in these threads through the years.

A posting of the rules is the most entertaining thing you've seen? Boy have I got good news for you. Disney has so many rules posted for their various sites you can check out! Happy reading!

 

[tx911]

The rules and regulations ARE very clear. Is the date you want to check in 11 months or less away? If not then you CANNOT book yet. THAT IS THE RULE

A posting of the rules is the most entertaining thing you've seen? Boy have I got good news for you. Disney has so many rules posted for their various sites you can check out! Happy reading!

Let's see if I have this right regarding walking:
1. Involves booking dates that you have no intention of staying
2. Has been explicitly stated to be against the spirit of the rules (which falls under the umbrella of common sense anyway)
3. Confers a booking advantage on the practicing member, to the detriment of his/her fellow members.
4. Only works if a small subset of the membership does it

Sounds like a real winner.

 

[Tatebeck]

Sounds like a real winner.

Well Disney didn't specifically say in the rules that is isn't a winner so.... IT MUST BE!

 

[Sandisw]

If this actually happened, while it is unlikely like you say, it is within the rules.

At no point did you book a room without your desired check in date (at the time) being within the 11 month window.

They HAVE definitely made it difficult to DETERMINE who broke the rules because the only person that knows 100% what the intent was at the time of the booking is the member.

So if they want to fix it (even without changing the rules as written!) they would be able to change how the system handles bookings and/or modifications, or choose to look at modifications after the fact and cancel reservations or punish members/restrict memberships that they feel have blatantly broken the rules.

Take your example. While unlikely it could happen once. Now if something similar happens to that same members reservations, multiple times a year, for multiple years, it is much less likely to be a coincidence.

Except my contention is that DVC is applying something subjective to determine an owner’s intent if they are deciding that I didn’t want that when I booked.

Plus, as I said, if someone is breaking rule that is part of the home resort rules and regulations they have to be able to tell the owner what rule is broken, assuming that they want to cancel.

No one is arguing that walking is a way to take advantage of the current t rules, but noting in the rules prohibits unlimited modifications.

If DVC doesn’t want owners to be able to do that, then they need to include that in the rules and why they indicated last week they are open to reviewing the current rules to see if there is a change they can make that fixes it without causing other issues they don’t want to see happen.

The POS actually indicates that is expected. We, as owners, should expect the rules to be clear.

Many people upset about walking are upset because they believe DVC needs to change the rules to stop it…because the way it currently works…the rules/system…allows owners to use them to their advantage.

As you said, the rules are clear because it says the word “desired” check in day. But the only one who can say if what they booked ilwas desired or not is the owner.

Every owner who books a room, technically desires that day to be their check in day…they just change their mind later…

 

[Chili327]

I have to admit this is the most entertaining take I’ve read in these threads through the years.

It is the point though. The issue is there is no way to tell if the date someone ends up on is the date they intended or not. THAT is the real issue, & im not sure how you would or could ever pin point that or confirm.

I don't think walking for months is unusual for certain room types at certain resorts.

That's insane. lol

If this actually happened, while it is unlikely like you say, it is within the rules.

At no point did you book a room without your desired check in date (at the time) being within the 11 month window.

They HAVE definitely made it difficult to DETERMINE who broke the rules because the only person that knows 100% what the intent was at the time of the booking is the member.

So if they want to fix it (even without changing the rules as written!) they would be able to change how the system handles bookings and/or modifications, or choose to look at modifications after the fact and cancel reservations or punish members/restrict memberships that they feel have blatantly broken the rules.

Take your example. While unlikely it could happen once. Now if something similar happens to that same members reservations, multiple times a year, for multiple years, it is much less likely to be a coincidence.

THAT is the big question & no way they will ever be able to determine that, & even if they could, it doesn't mean that someone's plans couldn't change, so it may not end up being the original dates intended, so here we are trying to find another way, to help because that way isn't.

Let's see if I have this right regarding walking:
1. Involves booking dates that you have no intention of staying
2. Has been explicitly stated to be against the spirit of the rules (which falls under the umbrella of common sense anyway)
3. Confers a booking advantage on the practicing member, to the detriment of his/her fellow members.
4. Only works if a small subset of the membership does it

The intent is irrelevant because the intent and dates can & do change.

The "spirit of the rules" are much different than "The Rules". It would be great if everyone felt and acted the same, but someone is always trying to get a leg up.


Bottom-line is hopefully they can curb some of it without affecting regular members, & I do think if they start with commercial renting, that will have some impact by itself.

 

[eticketplease]

I go in today and book November 1st to November 7th…that’s when I want to go.

In 5 days, I decide that I want to go a week later because I changed my mind…because I am allowed to do that…now I am booking my desired date.

A few days later, I change my mind again because my husband wants to try and go on Thanksgiving

By the end of the week, I realize that doesn’t make sense, so I really want to go the first week in December…so I move again.

Poor DH.. All he wanted was to eat at Liberty Tree on actual Thanksgiving

 

[Leight19]

You can try and spin it however you want and you can continue to offer all of the rationalizations and non sequiturs. The facts remain the same- you are choosing to make a reservation at 11 months that you have no intent of keeping. Because you make these reservations, people who actually want the unit doesn't have access to it.

I understand some people don’t like walking but saying this is just factually not true. If I walk past a room it opens up for someone else to use. The dates I walk past are always available for someone else who wants the room and I don’t block anyone from accessing it; just delays the booking. Ironically the only access I actually do deny is for the dates I am intending to stay.

 

[dvcsince93]

I go in today and book November 1st to November 7th…that’s when I want to go.

In 5 days, I decide that I want to go a week later because I changed my mind…because I am allowed to do that…now I am booking my desired date.

A few days later, I change my mind again because my husband wants to try and go on Thanksgiving

By the end of the week, I realize that doesn’t make sense, so I really want to go the first week in December…so I move again.

Now I am happy…this is obviously an exaggeration but the point is that no one, including DVC gets to say my intent was never to go to begin with on my original dates…and that is why you can’t have subjective rules.

If DVC adds language that says, “you can’t modify your trip x, y or x, then it doesn’t matter why I change my mind”.

And yes, the system doesn’t stop you from unlimited modifications because the rules allow it…again, if it is a system glitch…which is what I think you are implying, all DVC has to do is fix that without updates to the rules.

We simply don’t see it the same way. What I can say that is they decide to do something and they update the language of the home resort rules and regulations, then it supports the current rules allowed it and the new ones won’t.

Your example is great but not for the reasons I think you offered it- it clearly shows how walking is not merely modifying reservations.

Walking doesn't work if you don't have your reservation end in the +7 dates. If it doesn't, then someone can block your reservations, since the +7 can't be used to start a reservation during your home resort period.

In addition, none of your travel dates overlap, so you have no guarantee that you would be able to get your desired unit each step of the way. Since you are allowing everyone to compete on equal footing every step of the way-intent is irrelevant.

 

[Sandisw]

Poor DH.. All he wanted was to eat at Liberty Tree on actual Thanksgiving

I know..,,but after almost 33 years of marriage, he knows he loses!! Hahahaha

 

[tx911]

Except my contention is that DVC is applying something subjective to determine an owner’s intent if they are deciding that I didn’t want that when I booked.

Plus, as I said, if someone is breaking rule that is part of the home resort rules and regulations they have to be able to tell the owner what rule is broken, assuming that they want to cancel.

No one is arguing that walking is a way to take advantage of the current t rules, but noting in the rules prohibits unlimited modifications.

If DVC doesn’t want owners to be able to do that, then they need to include that in the rules. The POS actually indicates that is expected.

Many people upset about walking are upset because they believe DVC needs to change the rules to stop it…because the way it currently works…the rules/system…allows owners to use them to their advantage.

The word “desired” in the rules certainly implies that they expected people to book a check in they actually want…but, as I have said, only the owner can define that and that is the rub of this problem.

This is the problem with people taking advantage, finding loopholes, etc.

Eventually it will piss off the other members enough that rules get made that limit modifications for all of us. The greed of the few may result in rules that degrade the product for all.

It would be much better if people just chose not to walk.

But the likeliest outcome is that DVC will do nothing, so everything is probably safe at the moment.

 

[eticketplease]

I understand some people don’t like walking but saying this is just factually not true. If I walk past a room it opens up for someone else to use. The dates I walk past are always available for someone else who wants the room and I don’t block anyone from accessing it; just delays the booking. Ironically the only access I actually do deny is for the dates I am intending to stay.

True except for if that person doesn't go in the next day to pick up your discarded room then essentially you did block them.

Yes they could get it but they were online at 8 am at 11 months to get that room. Are they now supposed to be online at 8 am and 10 months and 30/29/27 days (depending on month) to get the room they desire by hoping you will drop it?