Anybody know anything about real estate title law?

[MrsPete]

Interesting story and proof positive that some people will do anything when money is involved. Well, interesting when you're just reading about it -- twisted and dastardly if you're involved!

- If everything you've scouted out is true (and, given that some of it is supposition, it may not be), the uncle is a real skunk.

- You definitely need a real estate lawyer.

- I'd want what's coming to me, and I'd be downright determined that the uncle would not cheat me. However, if the facts turn out to show that the house isn't financially worth it (and that could be true -- could have a second mortgage or similar), I would graciously write them a note saying that they can have it. I would not pursue the situation just for vengeance.

- I'd want to know who was the executor of the will 15 years ago. It was his responsibility to let your mom know she was in the will. Ask the lawyer whether the executor can be held liable for failure to inform. Of course, I'm assuming that your mom was easy to find; she wasn't living out of the country or without an address, was she?

- As for them wanting 1/4 of the taxes, upkeep, etc., they don't have a leg to stand on. To collect this from you, they'd have to sue you. You would countersue for having not been informed all these years.

- I totally agree that you should not speak to the uncle under any circumstances. Let your lawyer do the talking.

- I agree with having the lawyer check into whether the aunt with Alzheimer's Disease made informed consent when she signed away her property. Her caretakers would probably benefit from the money.

- Even though the uncle owns this house and another, he may not have cash-money. He may be "house poor".


Please keep us updated. I'm interested.

 

[chris31997]

Best not to tell uncle anything. This is one time it doesn't pay to advertise. If everything is what you think they are you want to hit him by surprise. Like war most battles are won by surprise. You don't want him to know what you are doing ahead of time.

Interesting story and proof positive that some people will do anything when money is involved. Well, interesting when you're just reading about it -- twisted and dastardly if you're involved!

- If everything you've scouted out is true (and, given that some of it is supposition, it may not be), the uncle is a real skunk.

- You definitely need a real estate lawyer.

- I'd want what's coming to me, and I'd be downright determined that the uncle would not cheat me. However, if the facts turn out to show that the house isn't financially worth it (and that could be true -- could have a second mortgage or similar), I would graciously write them a note saying that they can have it. I would not pursue the situation just for vengeance.

- I'd want to know who was the executor of the will 15 years ago. It was his responsibility to let your mom know she was in the will. Ask the lawyer whether the executor can be held liable for failure to inform. Of course, I'm assuming that your mom was easy to find; she wasn't living out of the country or without an address, was she?

- As for them wanting 1/4 of the taxes, upkeep, etc., they don't have a leg to stand on. To collect this from you, they'd have to sue you. You would countersue for having not been informed all these years.

- I totally agree that you should not speak to the uncle under any circumstances. Let your lawyer do the talking.

- I agree with having the lawyer check into whether the aunt with Alzheimer's Disease made informed consent when she signed away her property. Her caretakers would probably benefit from the money.

- Even though the uncle owns this house and another, he may not have cash-money. He may be "house poor".


Please keep us updated. I'm interested.

Good point about not advertising to the uncle. Did not think about that.

I too am intersted in the outcome of this. I hope it all works out.

 

[tvguy]

another thing to advise your parents about is-if they sign over the property there may be an issue of them being taxed on it.

i'm not a tax person, but if that home is worth 200,000 and your mom's share is 25% that means signing it over might be considered a gift to her uncle of $50,000 which is significantly over the amount a person can gift w/o getting hit by the gift tax. it's another reason speaking to an attorney would be advisable.


on her grandfather's will-she might check the on line county records division for where he passed. depending on how many years ago it was, if it was probated then there might be an on-line record of it, if it was prior to when on-line records existed she could give a call and see if they can do a manual search. if it wasn't probated then an attorney may pursue her uncle for improperly administering the estate (even if not appointed to administer an estate, the person who does so takes on a fiduciary responsibility) it could be that uncle ends up paying for all of your parent's legal fees to clear this up.

Just thinking aloud.....with no knowledge of local laws....would the value be today's value, or the value when the original owner died (assuming stepped down value)?

 

[ceemys]

I have no value of input but this is a very interesting story. Sorry y'all have to go through this OP. But it doesn't sound like the Uncle is very accommodating and it just might get ugly. Keep up updated!

 

[crisi]

Just thinking aloud.....with no knowledge of local laws....would the value be today's value, or the value when the original owner died (assuming stepped down value)?

There is never any tax on the recipient of a gift or an estate. The person giving the gift or the estate is taxed.

There may be back property tax but since she didn't have possession, the uncle should be held responsible for them as he held possession.

 

[kellia]

Just thinking aloud.....with no knowledge of local laws....would the value be today's value, or the value when the original owner died (assuming stepped down value)?

When you sell a house that you were left, you have to pay normal real estate gains taxes on the amount it increased from its market value it was when the person died and you received it. But since she never knew about it, I don't know how that will work out...

 

[starry_solo]

Advice: get an attorney knowledgeable in real estate and probate laws in the state where the property is located. Find out what county the property is in and see if there is a local county bar association that has a lawyer referral service.

Other than that, you shouldn't take legal advice over the internet

 

[manning]

Like the majority here have said do get a lawyer.

 

[threecrazykids]

Advice: get an attorney knowledgeable in real estate and probate laws in the state where the property is located. Find out what county the property is in and see if there is a local county bar association that has a lawyer referral service.

Other than that, you shouldn't take legal advice over the internet

Yeah, but we've all stayed at a Holiday Inn right?

 

[chiefmickeymouse]

Advice: get an attorney knowledgeable in real estate and probate laws in the state where the property is located. Find out what county the property is in and see if there is a local county bar association that has a lawyer referral service.

Other than that, you shouldn't take legal advice over the internet

I just wanted to get an idea if I was right and something fishy is going on. You have all given me some stuff to think about, so thanks!

 

[chiefmickeymouse]

Yeah, but we've all stayed at a Holiday Inn right?

That's what's wrong with me! I prefer Marriott. Better make a change...

 

[chiefmickeymouse]

Here is an update. The lawyer called my parents back and asked what they wanted. My parents told them $50,000. Lawyer said his client didn't have that kind of money, no idea if that's true or not. He is supposed to discuss with the uncle and call them back. I think they'll counter-offer, but won't know for sure until it happens. My mom is ready to accept just about anything because she didn't even know this existed before, dad is ready to play hardball.

I told them they need a lawyer, in the state where the house is, title law and probate, like many of you have told me. Dad said they are waiting for the counter-offer or for the lawyer to tell them they will just sit on the property.

DH has family in the real estate title business in the same state. If they need a lawyer, I'll get a name from them.

Other questions,

Should we do a background check on the uncle for property deeds, liens, judgements, etc.? Feel kind of shady doing this, but it is all public record and I bet they've done one on my parents. It's about $50 to do it online.

DH brought this up, there have been a lot of properties bought in the area for their mineral rights. He says, what if there has been an offer because of this and the lawyer isn't telling them?

Also, I wanted to thank everyone who took the time to respond. You have all been very helpful.

 

[chiefmickeymouse]

Interesting story and proof positive that some people will do anything when money is involved. Well, interesting when you're just reading about it -- twisted and dastardly if you're involved!

- If everything you've scouted out is true (and, given that some of it is supposition, it may not be), the uncle is a real skunk.

I'm not positive about some of the information. Some of what I know came second hand through my parents. The part about the uncle cheating my grandfather out of money is third-hand, from my grandmother to my mother to me.

- You definitely need a real estate lawyer.

- I'd want what's coming to me, and I'd be downright determined that the uncle would not cheat me. However, if the facts turn out to show that the house isn't financially worth it (and that could be true -- could have a second mortgage or similar), I would graciously write them a note saying that they can have it. I would not pursue the situation just for vengeance.

No vengeance involved here. I just don't want my parents to be cheated.

- I'd want to know who was the executor of the will 15 years ago. It was his responsibility to let your mom know she was in the will. Ask the lawyer whether the executor can be held liable for failure to inform. Of course, I'm assuming that your mom was easy to find; she wasn't living out of the country or without an address, was she?

My parents still don't have a copy of the great-grandfather's will. They aren't sure how to get one, and neither am I. Does my uncle's lawyer have to disclose this to them (if you know). My mother has been easy to find, and my grandmother lived for several years after my grandfather died. They knew where she was.

- As for them wanting 1/4 of the taxes, upkeep, etc., they don't have a leg to stand on. To collect this from you, they'd have to sue you. You would countersue for having not been informed all these years.

I don't think my parents are worried about this anymore. They see it as a scare tactic the lawyer tried on them.

- I totally agree that you should not speak to the uncle under any circumstances. Let your lawyer do the talking.

They still haven't got a lawyer, waiting for a counter offer. My parents are very lawyer shy, because they hired one a couple of years ago for a simple document and ended up with a big bill. I'm still working on them about this.

- I agree with having the lawyer check into whether the aunt with Alzheimer's Disease made informed consent when she signed away her property. Her caretakers would probably benefit from the money.

I think the uncle and his wife are the caretakers. I'm not sure about this, but his lawyer told my parents they were "taking care of her". I don't know if this means she lives with them.

- Even though the uncle owns this house and another, he may not have cash-money. He may be "house poor".

That is true, but if there isn't a mortgage on the house, he could mortgage the cost to buy my parents out. The house has been in the family since 1940, so it's likely there isn't a mortgage (there could be a second or something, don't know for sure).


Please keep us updated. I'm interested.

You brought up a lot of interesting points, thanks for the reply!

 

[tvguy]

When you sell a house that you were left, you have to pay normal real estate gains taxes on the amount it increased from its market value it was when the person died and you received it. But since she never knew about it, I don't know how that will work out...

Like I said in my post, I don't know that laws in the state this happened in, and how the title was set up. But, here in California, there are times that no tax is due.

 

[Legendteri]

I don't see a problem with doing a title report on the property. I used to work at a title company and we did it all the time.

If there are mineral rights in the area, I would be willing to bet you a bajillion dollars this is what it is about.

 

[manning]

please, please get a lawyer and quit talking to the uncle or his lawyer!!!

Tell your mother the same saying applies here as in a court of law.

"he who represents himself has a fool for a client."

If you don't know the facts (or values) you can't begin to negotiate. If you settle for $50,000 and find out you should have gotten $100,00 you will be kicking yourself in the you know where.

As long as you are not doing anything illegal you should not feel guilty doing everything to get info. He who has the most info wins more times than not.

Negotiating was part of my job and here is a negotiating 101 advice and is taught.

"Remove all emotions from the process. Emotions is one, if not, the main reason for losing."

You're going to have to be hard nosed. Your father has the right attitude. The uncle is and doesn't care about your feelings. He wants the house!! And he is smart enough to have a lawyer. Are you?

 

[manning]

And if he improperly or failed to probate the will he may be subject to legal problems. If you find this to be true you have an upper hand. An ultimatum may be given and that is.

"These are our terms and if you fail to consider them we will take legal actions"

Faced with that he just may cave.

 

[runwad]

OP regarding your parents hesitation to retain a lawyer, tell them to ask for an engagement letter. This will spell out from the lawyer how much he will charge per hour and how much he thinks the total charges will add up to for your case. Once he drafts all that info in the letter you sign it and it becomes your contract with him to retain his services. This will help you fight off a big bill at the end.

 

[3boymthr]

I used to work for a real estate lawyer who also did a lot of wills and family trusts on the side so I can't advise on the legal aspects but I can say that the will should be on file with the clerk of courts in the county state where it should have been probated. You can probably do a search online and find the records and/or call the town clerk where uncle lives to ask where a will for someone who lived in that town would have been probated then call the court where it would have been probated and ask for a copy. If it was never probated then something very fishy was done at the time of your great-grandfather's death. ETA there will be a fee to get a copy from the court but the cost will be fairly cheap.

On another topic. Going back to the aunt with Alzheimer's you might not be doing anyone any favors by looking into her divestment of interest in the property. If she is in a nursing home (either at the time or within a couple of years of when she signed the documents) then the nursing home will have the rights to anything she might be owed by the estate. This could tie the estate up even further possibly for years even, until she dies or any value of the house is consumed by the nursing home.

 

[manning]

I used to work for a real estate lawyer who also did a lot of wills and family trusts on the side so I can't advise on the legal aspects but I can say that the will should be on file with the clerk of courts in the county state where it should have been probated. You can probably do a search online and find the records and/or call the town clerk where uncle lives to ask where a will for someone who lived in that town would have been probated then call the court where it would have been probated and ask for a copy. If it was never probated then something very fishy was done at the time of your great-grandfather's death. ETA there will be a fee to get a copy from the court but the cost will be fairly cheap.

On another topic. Going back to the aunt with Alzheimer's you might not be doing anyone any favors by looking into her divestment of interest in the property. If she is in a nursing home (either at the time or within a couple of years of when she signed the documents) then the nursing home will have the rights to anything she might be owed by the estate. This could tie the estate up even further possibly for years even, until she dies or any value of the house is consumed by the nursing home.

Second paragraph should be something to take up with a lawyer.