Another view on FP+

[OtherScott]

Be careful not to conflate 90% usage during the slow roll-out months with 90% usage during the busy Spring Break season. Before: 50% used FP- and got passes for Test Track and Soarin'. Now: 90% use FP+ and half of those people are getting passes for Maelstrom, EO and Living With the Land. That 90% figure looks impressive. But if half of that 90% are getting same day passes for "C" level attractions that don't require a FP, is the system benefitting them? Remember. Soarin' FPs used to sell out under FP- and they are selling out under FP+. The system is doling out the same number of FPs. So if total usage is climbing from 50% to 90%, it isn't because more people are getting Soarin' passes. It is because a lot of people are getting junk FPs.

I've been to Disney with 2 sweaty, crying kids. A valuable FP for me today ain't what I would've chosen then. Just sayin'

 

[morethananyonex]

If you take a 50% participation rate to 90% despite a higher learning curve?

Using it to the fullest is a tall order. Newbies stumbling onto this inside the park, then using it to bring the total to 50%, certainly weren't using it to the fullest. Picking 3 rides on the day you want them, at times you want them, 30-60 days out is the definition of using this to the fullest.

And remember, the 90% doesn't include the millions who've burned Iger in effigy while swearing off ever returning.

I could reply to this, but I'd just be wasting my time as JimmyV basically typed out everything I was going to say . So yeah, what he said.

 

[OtherScott]

I could reply to this, but I'd just be wasting my time as JimmyV basically typed out everything I was going to say . So yeah, what he said.

All fair points

 

[DRDISNEYMD]

I'm thinking that maybe they are waiting to make any adjustments until after the Spring Break park attendance numbers lower a bit.

One wrong letter or symbol in a code or algorithm could potentially bring the whole system down.

So maybe they are waiting until it's not a peak period before they introduce any changes to the system.

We went last March (23rd-30th) during spring break/Easter season and we were still 100% in legacy FP mode. I believe a couple weeks before we went they were giving small groups MBs to test. But when we went I didn't see any. I think they suspended a lot of testing/changes during the peak period.

I can completely appreciate people going to WDW now how frustrating it must be. I know for sure if I were there now I would be just as annoyed. You pay a lot of money to go to WDW and to not have a good experience doesn't really seem acceptable.

That being said, I think Disney has made a lot of progress over the past year. And I can only hope that in 1-3 years time FP+ system will be working seamlessly.

I think any change to a park that has been around 40+ years is always going to cause controversy. Some will love it some will hate it.

I truly love WDW and all things Disney, so I know I will be going again and again in the future. I just will have to adjust my previous "strategy". In a way, I'm looking forward to not be able to ride attraction after attraction. It will force me to spend more time taking in all of the sights and little "pluses" that the WDW parks have.

Good luck to everyone though as you try to figure out this new system during your upcoming trips.

~Excellent post! I love Disney World and everything they're doing right now! I don't have the luxury of wasting my entire existence complaining about something I no longer find value in.

~While I loved going to Disney World -- I would always voice concerns about the poor condition, neglect of the parks, the lack of new attractions and decline in world class dining. While everyone else here was super excited about going to BBB and meeting princess this and that -- and of course, preserving the Tiki Room.

~Now, Disney is finally investing money and new attractions into the parks, so I could not be more pleased. How many years has it been since MK got a new coaster and new attractions? Too long!

~The New Fantasyland looks fabulous -- prior to that, at rope drop we would race to either Peter Pan, Space or Splash to ride standby, then pull a fp and then head straight over to Dumbo because the lines for Dumbo were always ridiculous. The majority of park guests would head straight for Dumbo! Since the New Fantasyland -- Dumbo is no longer a priority.

~I am so excited about the Mine Train and the new parade looks so fabulous. I cannot wait to see that! Initially, I laughed at the idea of using FP+ for parades but I take it all back after seeing video of the new parade.

~Speaking of the new parade -- I remember all of the reviews here were negative and people were bashing the costumes and floats. Now, all of the reviews are positive. That just goes to show that people don't know what they're talking about. What if Disney cancelled the parade because of those complainers???

~Now, offsite guests can reserve FP+ in advance! But, there were so many people who claimed this would never happen! When, I said it would from the beginning! *All* of their negative predictions have gone up in smoke -- every single one! And, I do mean all of them.

~Who am I to question Disney's business practices? It either works for me or it doesn't. My interests are vested only in what makes me and my family happy.

~If Disney makes changes that inconvenience me -- than my money will go elsewhere. You won't ever find me arguing with a corporation. Nor, will I ever attempt to belittle people who still enjoy going to the parks or not.

Am I missing something? Are guests no longer allowed to get to the park at RD and head strraight to an attraction without having a FP?

At present, I'm a supporter of FP+. Will that change in a month after getting a first-hand experience with it? Maybe, maybe not...especially since the current system I will be experiencing will likely not be the system in place whenever my next trip ends up being.

However, even though I'm generally a commando at heart who tries to make RD every morning (not always successfully I admit), I don't necessarily agree with the common "early bird should get the worm" opinion that we see a lot here. If you paid double what everyone else paid to enter the park, then perhaps you should be entitled to more, but not for simply just arriving early. It's already undeniable that you will be able to do more as a result of making RD, completely irregardless of FP (+ or - )...but for some reason, that's not good enough for too many. They expect Disney to reward them further - and at the expense of other guests, no less.

~Very well said! It's so obvious that there are people who will hate this system no matter what. The old fp before the time enforcement on March 7, 2012 allowed you to pull fp's -- that ran out very quickly in the morning anyway. Then you could use them anytime after the return window opened.

~We would race around all morning collecting fp's and riding standby until there were no more fp's available to pull. Then we would use them at night after dinner!

~I love FP+ so much better, I have control over my day and I can plan to see what I want when I want. I can think for myself and I know what works best for my family than a machine that spits out fp tickets with random return times. Now, I can plan my day exactly how I want it. We accomplished so much more with FP+. My kids would always say -- "mommy why do we have to go back over to this ride again?" "Why can't we just get in line and ride now so we don't have to come back?" Even, the kids understood that fp did not make a lot sense for the way we toured.

~This is why an overwhelming amount of fp users used fp late to begin with! It didn't work! If it was so *perfect* -- people would have just returned within their time window instead of opting to use them late, well past their return window!

What's A&E and why is it 3 hours?

~A&E completely threw me off just like NFL! I think it's so cute and much better than NFL!

Makes it pretty much identical to the ADR process, doesn't it? What I find interesting, is that there are many people who staunchly defend the ADR system (180+10), but are also very much anti-FP+. There's a contradiction there.

~LOL. Some people blame FP+ for everything! Even, long lines during spring break.

~One time, when we were at AK -- Dinosaur was down and we couldn't use our fp's. So, we came back later and the fp line was backed up. While, we were in line there was this weird family in front who carried on so bad about waiting in line -- they looked so stupid to me because the line was long but moving along steadily. Anyway, they kept turning around and trying complain to us about the long lines -- hoping that we would get upset like them. So, we smiled and turned our backs to them and then group behind us started laughing at them. We struck up an amazing conversation in line with the group behind us! You could tell they were fun, upbeat and exciting people like us. Anyway, the complainers in front got real quiet after no one would pay attention to them, then they tried to change their tune and act all excited! Anyway, I could *not* go to Disney with people who complain about everything -- especially something as silly as standing in a little line.

A 3 yo old that wants to see A&E? I will lock that ressie in thank you very much.

~LOL. You are too funny!!! Clearly, you're not alone! Why would anyone question using a FP+ for Anna & Elsa when other alternative has been to wait upwards of four to five hours!

~This summer cannot come fast enough! We can't wait to get back to Disney!

 

[MrInfinity]

Isn't this the argument in favor of FP-? The people who did their homework, put in the hours, got to the park and secured their Fast Passes were as vigilant and diligent as you are now. But they are accused* of "gaming the system", "cheating", "depriving others" and ruining the experience for everyone else. *Not by you. But by others.

You don't have to sugar coat it for me, I "gamed the system" as much as anyone. I was a FP master.

So yes. I'd agree that's the argument against FP+. Sums it up! I never said that isn't the argument against it. Clearly FP- was there to be used by those that chose to use it. Since few did, we benefitted. FP+ is a different beast. I am far worse off on FP+ than I was on FP-, no question. But, that doesn't stop me from accepting that Disney is not making this change in error or for some mischevious reason, rather, it is a solid business decision, and I agree w it, for my better or worse.

Given it's our new system, I'll still try to find the ways to do the best for myself, within the new constraints. So I can get A&E before everyone else, or a cool Star Wars breakfast. There are ways I can still optimize. If FP+ hits for SDMT, I will probly find out along w the rest of those out here, first, and get to it before the general public knows what hit them. OTOH, nothing we do now can get us on Soarin 3 times via FP. I'll accept that and look for new ways to optimize.

 

[JimmyV]

~We would race around all morning collecting fp's and riding standby until there were no more fp's available to pull. Then we would use them at night after dinner!

Ah, yes. The good ol' days.

~I love FP+ so much better

C'mon now. Even the most ardent FP+ supporter has to admit that the old days when FP- could be used and abused was Disney Utopia.

 

[MrInfinity]

C'mon now. Even the most ardent FP+ supporter has to admit that the old days when FP- could be used and abused was Disney Utopia.

Of course.

However, despite the fact that I know I'll wait in longer lines, and probly ride less, I find myself drawn to FP+ as being a truly awesome innovation to come to WDW. Already I've been able to secure extremely rare A&E slots by being proactive. In the old days I'd have had to sacrifice precious Rope Drop time to do that and probly still spend an hour in line. Now? I have to sacrifice a FP to BTMRR or something common, no biggie. For it, I get something that most ppl will not even get to attend.

Did this change to FP+ benefit the average visitor? No it benefitted those who used it proactively just like FP- did. Just differently. FP+ has it's goods too and it in no way leaves me disgruntled toward Disney like it seems to for so many.

 

[DRDISNEYMD]

Ah, yes. The good ol' days.


C'mon now. Even the most ardent FP+ supporter has to admit that the old days when FP- could be used and abused was Disney Utopia.

~LOL.

~Yes, it was -- those were good times and I will never deny that. I don't know why you let FP+ turn you into this *mad* person -- the rides are still there. You sound so sad & tired to me, like you're just worn out from that fruitless debate!

~So, just get over it Jimmy V, so you can get excited about Disney again & have some fun! I mean this with the best of intentions!

 

[redrosesix]

So you're asking why they can't go back to the old way?

Easy. They want people to feel like they are locked into their Disney schedules so they can spend more time and money in the parks. The old way didn't do that.

An ideal system for guests would probably look like a merge of the 2 systems. It would have much shorter booking windows (under a week), less prebooked rides period, and more day of bookings that could be done from any device or kiosk anywhere you are. Unfortunately, ideal for guests doesn't mean ideal for Disney. People can spin things all they want, but the reason they won't go back is simple. They think the new way makes them more money, and they've invested too much to turn back now.

This.

They don't care if you do a few less attractions per day, in fact they're saving money on wear and tear if people ride less. They don't care if you spend a bit more time waiting in lines as long as you don't get frustrated and go to the dark side. As long as you do enough to keep you coming, they're happy. I think they're wrong and this is going to come back to bite them, but they aren't going to make your experience better than "good enough"

 

[DRDISNEYMD]

Of course.

However, despite the fact that I know I'll wait in longer lines, and probly ride less, I find myself drawn to FP+ as being a truly awesome innovation to come to WDW. Already I've been able to secure extremely rare A&E slots by being proactive. In the old days I'd have had to sacrifice precious Rope Drop time to do that and probly still spend an hour in line. Now? I have to sacrifice a FP to BTMRR or something common, no biggie. For it, I get something that most ppl will not even get to attend.

Did this change to FP+ benefit the average visitor? No it benefitted those who used it proactively just like FP- did. Just differently. FP+ has it's goods too and it in no way leaves me disgruntled toward Disney like it seems to for so many.

~Excellent post! However, we were able to accomplish more with FP+ after the time enforcement kicked in! With that said, other than the first ride at rope drop we typically do not repeat rides.

~Like you, I am also drawn to the innovative spirit and tech behind FP+. It is a game changer and everyone in the industry is watching! It is expected that all of the other amusement parks will eventually follow suit. Also, it's rumored that Universal has already filed a patent for something quite similar to Disney's Magic Bands and FP+!

~fuzzylogicllc, I really like your perspective on FP+ and there is nothing *fuzzy* about your positive outlook & funny sense of humor!

 

[jade1]

Also, it's rumored that Universal has already filed a patent for something quite similar to Disney's Magic Bands and FP+!

Do you mean this one?

http://www.google.com/patents/US20130332509

A queue management system in accordance with present embodiments may include a data server system including a processor and memory. The queue management system may include an interface system of the data server system configured to receive a reservation request including an indication of a general time period of arrival of a guest to an area. Additionally, the queue management system may include a reservation right allotment system of the data server system configured to correlate a reservation slot for accessing an attraction to identification information for the guest. Further, the queue management system may include a detection system of the data server system configured to determine when a portable identification feature associated with the identification information has arrived to the area, and a reservation assignment system of the data server system configured to establish a reservation to access the attraction at a specific time window.

 

[Missyrose]

Cancel your room reservation & your FP+ reservations are canceled with them. I would bet that pre-shipping of MBs will also go away soon and you will be able to customize but pick them up at resort check-in, otherwise even WITHOUT the FP+ issue, people will book rooms, get the MBs shipped, and cancel the room just to save the $13/pp for the bands.

No chance that Disney stops sending the Magic Bands in advance. They want you to begin using them as soon as you step off the plane (for Magical Express). Disney doesn't cancel your ADRs booked using the 180+10 window,so I highly doubt you'd lose your FP+ reservations if you had non-package tickets attached and you cancelled a room-only reservation.

And this making a reservation/cancelling at 3 weeks out would have to exponentially increase on an incredibly massive scale for it to register on Disney's radar as something that needs"fixing."

 

[DVCJones]

We are here this week. I have been to WDW 15 times, and this by far the worst we have ever experienced. I am a rd commando and lived by tour guide mike. I adjusted my plans, but the fp+ is a farce. I feel sorry for no resort guest, but I feel totally played by Disney this trip. I consider myself an expert, but these changes stink. We spent twice as much on this trip than in years past an rode maybe half that we usually do. My kids will not wait in lines. Guess it will be a long time before we come back. Not worth the money. So sad.

This my biggest fear for our next trip.

I am a lot like you. We go the same week in April every year. Sometimes it does fall on Easter. We have always been able to manage with the old FP system. I fear that the quality of our trip is going decline significantly. That is why I am not buying new tickets. We are just going to use what we have left of our 10 day non-exp hoppers +more tickets. There is no way I feel comfortable shelling out more money for tickets if we experience what you have described. We will just use our DVC as home base and go other places for future trips.

 

[JimmyV]

You sound so sad & tired to me, like you're just worn out from that fruitless debate!

~So, just get over it Jimmy V, so you can get excited about Disney again & have some fun! I mean this with the best of intentions!

Trust me. I am neither sad nor tired. I am just analytic and work in a job where creative thinking and out of the box problem-solving is necessary to resolve multi-million dollar problems. So I can't help but think how I would have led a team to do things differently. I have used FP+. Go to the "How long was your actual FP wait" thread to read my uneditorialized reply. That was my experience. Did my family have a great time? Sure. But I am never deluded into thinking that 28 year old business school grads have answers and solutions that go beyond real world experience and unfortunately, I see a lot of that with FP+.

p.s. Read this post and the many other threads like it. http://disboards.com/showthread.php?t=3255380 This is not theory or debate. It is real world experience and neither we nor Disney would be wise to ignore it.

 

[DRDISNEYMD]

Do you mean this one?

http://www.google.com/patents/US20130332509

A queue management system in accordance with present embodiments may include a data server system including a processor and memory. The queue management system may include an interface system of the data server system configured to receive a reservation request including an indication of a general time period of arrival of a guest to an area. Additionally, the queue management system may include a reservation right allotment system of the data server system configured to correlate a reservation slot for accessing an attraction to identification information for the guest. Further, the queue management system may include a detection system of the data server system configured to determine when a portable identification feature associated with the identification information has arrived to the area, and a reservation assignment system of the data server system configured to establish a reservation to access the attraction at a specific time window.

~Thank you so much for the link, jade1! This is exactly what I heard about but I never saw the actual patent!

~It's only a matter of time before this becomes an industry standard!

Trust me. I am neither sad nor tired. I am just analytic and work in a job where creative thinking and out of the box problem-solving is necessary to resolve multi-million dollar problems. So I can't help but think how I would have led a team to do things differently. I have used FP+. Go to the "How long was your actual FP wait" thread to read my uneditorialized reply. That was my experience. Did my family have a great time? Sure. But I am never deluded into thinking that 28 year old business school grads have answers and solutions that go beyond real world experience and unfortunately, I see a lot of that with FP+.

p.s. Read this post and the many other threads like it. http://disboards.com/showthread.php?t=3255380 This is not theory or debate. It is real world experience and neither we nor Disney would be wise to ignore it.

~It's semantics and purely subjective, imo. You being a man of importance and all should already know this.

~There is a huge difference between analytical thinking and complaining. Individuals who are creative and think outside of the box are forward thinking and are quite eager to embrace new innovation and the implementation of modern technology as a viable solution for identifiable problems.

~In my experiences, conclusions are typically drawn from factual data and real statistics -- not wishful thinking and what ifs. In part, a system of this magnitude requires a lot hard data acquired through trial and error. Certain boundaries and limitations are put in place and must be exercised to extract data. These observations will then be used to measure and accurately test the limitations of the system.

~The ability to identify specific quality and risk factors, none of which we are privy to -- in terms of Disney's internal goals set forth during and after the implementation of this program, is an integral aspect that remains at the center of this entire endeavor.

~My obligations as a consumer is to assess the end product in order to determine whether or not it compliments my personal and very subjective vacation wants & needs! That's all. I have no interest in wild guessing and fear mongering. The rides and attractions are there and I can ride them whenever I want. Simply put, If I don't like it -- I just won't go.

~Hoping that FP+ fails and opining for legacy fp to return does not espouse creativity nor is it reflective of analytically thinking. It's futile, imo.

~With that said, I don't want to discourage or stifle the discussion because I think overall it can be a good thing.

~Also, I totally disagree with your assertion and negative tone toward young MBA grads.

~Thanks for the link -- I may check it out when I have some free time!

 

[*disgal*]

~There is a huge difference between analytical thinking and complaining.

~Hoping that FP+ fails and opining for legacy fp to return does not espouse creativity nor is it reflective of analytically thinking. It's futile, imo.

And there is a huge difference between not liking something(complaining about it) and it ruining your trip.

I think I have read pretty much everything that JimmyV has posted recently as I am trying to plan for a trip. Never did I get the impression that he and his family didn't have a great time. They did this in spite of FP+, at least that was my consensus. I don't get why people think that if you don't like something, then that means you are saying your trip was awful or you sound sad and tired. I got food poisoning at CP one year. Believe me, that was worse than anything FP+ can throw at me but I still had an awesome trip!


I don't know if I'll like Fp+ or not. I know it won't be the same. But there are things I already can tell you that I like about it. (the scheduling ahead of time) And I can guarantee you one thing. Even if I hate it I will have a wonderful trip because my family and extended family are with me and we are staying at Bonnet Creek which I am extremely excited about.

And maybe I missed something? But I have never read him say that he wants FP+ to fail or opine for the other to return. Ways to IMPROVE FP+ yes, I've read that.

 

[OtherScott]

This.

They don't care if you do a few less attractions per day, in fact they're saving money on wear and tear if people ride less. They don't care if you spend a bit more time waiting in lines as long as you don't get frustrated and go to the dark side. As long as you do enough to keep you coming, they're happy. I think they're wrong and this is going to come back to bite them, but they aren't going to make your experience better than "good enough"

They replaced a system that had me walking to all corners of the park, past every revenue generating opportunity, to physically obtain FPs, and limited my acquisition of additional FPs until I had used my current one, or 2 hours expired...

with a system that allows me to pre-book 3 FPs back-to-back within a 3 hour span (a timeframe that fits nicely between 2 offsite meals, BTW) 30/60 days prior to my arrival, allowing me time to plan out whatever else I'd like to that day, like float in a pool with an adult beverage...

so I would stay in the park longer?

 

[mom2rtk]

They replaced a system that had me walking to all corners of the park, past every revenue generating opportunity, to physically obtain FPs, and limited my acquisition of additional FPs until I had used my current one, or 2 hours expired...

with a system that allows me to pre-book 3 FPs back-to-back within a 3 hour span (a timeframe that fits nicely between 2 offsite meals, BTW) 30/60 days prior to my arrival, allowing me time to plan out whatever else I'd like to that day, like float in a pool with an adult beverage...

so I would stay in the park longer?

This could turn out to be the unintended consequence that causes the WDW management team the most consternation. And impetus to change things.

 

[OtherScott]

Trust me. I am neither sad nor tired. I am just analytic and work in a job where creative thinking and out of the box problem-solving is necessary to resolve multi-million dollar problems. So I can't help but think how I would have led a team to do things differently. I have used FP+. Go to the "How long was your actual FP wait" thread to read my uneditorialized reply. That was my experience. Did my family have a great time? Sure. But I am never deluded into thinking that 28 year old business school grads have answers and solutions that go beyond real world experience and unfortunately, I see a lot of that with FP+.

p.s. Read this post and the many other threads like it. http://disboards.com/showthread.php?t=3255380 This is not theory or debate. It is real world experience and neither we nor Disney would be wise to ignore it.

Dozens of great posts, Jimmy, but this isn't one of them. With this background you, of all people, should know that we're virtually blind here. Forget the answers, we probably don't know the questions. We don't know what we don't know.

We can all make assumptions based on our experiences. Mine tells me Disney sees the conditions for a demographic tsunami and the time to address it isn't when you start seeing the tide pulled out. Very little of my opinion comes from Disney itself. Disney is in the world, and of the world.

The world has always changed quickly, but we are increasingly more aware of that change.

 

[JimmyV]

Dozens of great posts, Jimmy, but this isn't one of them. With this background you, of all people, should know that we're virtually blind here. Forget the answers, we probably don't know the questions. We don't know what we don't know.

It is odd that you would say this in light of the post you made immediately before this one, which was right on point and consistent with what I have been saying for weeks. Disney set out to design a system that would increase revenue by giving people more discretionary time to spend money, and you so rightly point out that they may have done the opposite in allowing people to plan their days by doing less. We can wistfully muse that Disney has some "bigger plan" that we do not know or understand. And that could be right. Or we could apply real world experience to this as you did in your earlier post and conclude that they may have missed the boat here. I don't think that the people who have actually been in the parks and used the system are "blind". They know what they paid for and they know what their experiences were. Tossing all of that out on blind faith that "Disney knows better" is a cop out. I sincerely believe that changes will be made. But just as sincerely, I believe that these changes are being forced upon them due to unexpected dissatisfaction and unforeseen problems, and not because the changes are part of some organic evolution of the product and were planned for all along. For example, I can all but promise you that Disney did not foresee the Expedition Everest FP+ return line backing up to the Nemo theater. Nor did it foresee the FP+ return line for Space Mountain backing all the way out to the elevator of Astro Orbiter. The makeshift signs carried by CMs telling people where to get into those lines were not part of some master plan. They were glitches that someone in a conference room had to admit to when they said: "Oops. We didn't see that coming".

And they probably didn't see it coming that you would book 3 FPs in succession leaving you ample time to go off site for a couple of meals. All in all, there is a lot of blind faith or rose colored faith being applied here to a system that, frankly, wasn't very well thought out. Unlike the prior poster suggested, I am not pining for the return of FP-. There is no point to long for the impossible. But that does not prevent one from having an opinion as to which system was more efficient, equitable or user friendly.

True, my prior post was not my best. It was an overeaction to being called sad and tired by someone who knows neither me nor my motivations. I think I have brought valid, reasoned and well-thought out arguments against some of the features of FP+ in hopes that someone who cares might see them and stop to think. Of course I do not have all the answers. Or even a small minority of them. But I am fairly confident that there is a lot of hand-wringing going on at WDW over some of the unintended consequences of FP+ and there will, of course, be efforts to fix them. But to chalk this all up to: "Trust Disney. They know what they are doing" is assuming too much. They are far from perfect.