Another vaccine question

[MamaLema]

Many people that I know that got their 1st dose are not getting their second dose until 2-3 months later.
Everything I have read from reputable sources says the second dose should be given around 28 days.

I read Americans experiences on the community board and they all have gotten the second dose around 28 days.

Should we be worried that we arent being vaccinated properly? Even my dentist said their staff got their first dose end of February and are getting the second dose in June

Am I being paranoid?

I guess it depends where you live but if you’re fully vaccinated I am interested how long you waited between doses and what area you live in

 

[amw]

Many people that I know that got their 1st dose are not getting their second dose until 2-3 months later.
Everything I have read from reputable sources says the second dose should be given around 28 days.

I read Americans experiences on the community board and they all have gotten the second dose around 28 days.

Should we be worried that we arent being vaccinated properly? Even my dentist said their staff got their first dose end of February and are getting the second dose in June

Am I being paranoid?

I guess it depends where you live but if you’re fully vaccinated I am interested how long you waited between doses and what area you live in

in Ontario, it’s actually 112-120 days so 4 months. Yes it sucks. My 80-year-old mom was supposed to get her second dose tomorrow but it was rescheduled to June 23. However, it’s to give more people the opportunity to get immunized. Which is a good thing. Especially in the greater GTA which is highly populated - we need to get as many vaccinated as possible quickly. no science from me — just one shot is better than no shot & it’s out of our control to be honest.

 

[MamaLema]

in Ontario, it’s actually 112-120 days so 4 months. Yes it sucks. My 80-year-old mom was supposed to get her second dose tomorrow but it was rescheduled to June 23. However, it’s to give more people the opportunity to get immunized. Which is a good thing. Especially in the greater GTA which is highly populated - we need to get as many vaccinated as possible quickly. no science from me — just one shot is better than no shot & it’s out of our control to be honest.

Oh it’s totally out of our control, it’s just that I’m worried the makers of the vaccine say 28 days and we’re not following that.

 

[hdrolfe]

AstraZeneca, at least, says the second dose should be 4 to 12 weeks. I believe the other two say 28 days? And of course the J&J will be one dose if we ever get any in the country. I trust that they have looked at the data and are doing what will be safe. I am happy more people are able to get at least one dose, I believe the immunity offered by the first shot is better than nothing but personally will behave the same after that first dose as I am now without any.

 

[wdwmom3]

Many people that I know that got their 1st dose are not getting their second dose until 2-3 months later.
Everything I have read from reputable sources says the second dose should be given around 28 days.

I read Americans experiences on the community board and they all have gotten the second dose around 28 days.

Should we be worried that we arent being vaccinated properly? Even my dentist said their staff got their first dose end of February and are getting the second dose in June

Am I being paranoid?

I guess it depends where you live but if you’re fully vaccinated I am interested how long you waited between doses and what area you live in

I posted some of this information before. But this all just things that I’ve read, I’m no scientist so you should do your own research. My understanding is the only reason the two vaccine companies have said 21 or 28 days is because that was the time they used in their trials. They didn’t test different times between doses and determine that number of weeks is best. It’s just what they looked at and what their data is based on. With the Astrizenica it was actually because of doses in the trial that wede delayed that showed that you actually have higher protection if you wait 12 weeks (instead of 4). If that delay hadn’t of happened they would never know that you could go 12 weeks, and actually get a benefit.

The decision to extend doses was based on science. I believe there is real world evidence of people still having high protection at 3 months. And these scientists also know based on all sorts of other vaccines that delaying a few weeks doesn’t usually effect the effectiveness.

In Ontario they decided to extend the time between doses so that more people could get vaccinated quickly. You don’t need both shots to be protected. You have very high protection 2 weeks after your first shot. The second is just to extend how long you are protected. I actually feel safer with more people getting vaccinated quicker. It means we will all be protected and cases will go down quicker, then if they were vaccinating fewer people with less time in between.

 

[Debbie]

I posted some of this information before. But this all just things that I’ve read, I’m no scientist so you should do your own research. My understanding is the only reason the two vaccine companies have said 21 or 28 days is because that was the time they used in their trials. They didn’t test different times between doses and determine that number of weeks is best. It’s just what they looked at and what their data is based on. With the Astrizenica it was actually because of doses in the trial that wede delayed that showed that you actually have higher protection if you wait 12 weeks (instead of 4). If that delay hadn’t of happened they would never know that you could go 12 weeks, and actually get a benefit.

The decision to extend doses was based on science. I believe there is real world evidence of people still having high protection at 3 months. And these scientists also know based on all sorts of other vaccines that delaying a few weeks doesn’t usually effect the effectiveness.

In Ontario they decided to extend the time between doses so that more people could get vaccinated quickly. You don’t need both shots to be protected. You have very high protection 2 weeks after your first shot. The second is just to extend how long you are protected. I actually feel safer with more people getting vaccinated quicker. It means we will all be protected and cases will go down quicker, then if they were vaccinating fewer people with less time in between.

I love your explanation and agree 100%. It's not a lot different than when I was getting my second Shinrix vaccine. We would be on a Mediterranean cruise when the 6 month timeline came about. I asked if I should go in early, and the Nurse Practitioner said "No, no, no. It's much better to come in late than early", so I was 7+ months. I feel confident that the more people vaccinated first go, the faster the return to normal. I am more concerned with the number of people who are saying that they won't get the shot. Without the numbers for herd immunity, I fear this is going to hang on for quite some time.

 

[TommyJK]

Here's a good article from CBC as to what they found (i.e. why it's ok) and why they did it.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/canada-covid-19-vaccine-delay-risk-1.5939134
This article is from March 6th though. Just recently (in the last couple of days) there is some research showing that delaying that long, while still fine for most, is not very good for the elderly and cancer patients.

My guess though is that the majority of people are not going to have to wait 4 months though. As supply continues to increase, and once most have gotten their first dose (which each week the estimates change to sooner than previously planned) then they will start administering 2nd doses.

 

[MoreTravels]

The inventor of vaccine says one thing... another "expert" says another.....

To answer the original poster, please read this news article and make your own decision.

https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/pfizer-wont-sign-off-on-delaying-second-vaccine-dose

 

[bankr63]

The inventor of vaccine says one thing... another "expert" says another.....

To answer the original poster, please read this news article and make your own decision.

https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/pfizer-wont-sign-off-on-delaying-second-vaccine-dose

That article is one of the oldest ones linked here and on a couple of other recent threads (it was published March 4 - 20 days ago). There isn't much data in the article to support a person's decision (not that we have a decision to make - the authorities decide for us). Astra Zeneca says here they don't have data to support this - true, their trials were months ago with a short dosing schedule to speed the vaccine to market. Since that time we have accumulated 2-3 months of data in a much larger trial - the general public. With millions of doses now administered scientists are getting much broader data on the efficacy of the vaccine in different scenarios. Yes, perhaps Canada (or more specifically NACI) is extending this further than other nations, but they aren't doing it randomly. The current data (as of March 24) still shows the decision to be mostly well supported, although there will probably be some adjustments to the NACI advice as some groups will need different dosing schedules. Interestingly, many other vaccines have a much wider gap between doses that were developed over time because they weren't rushed in the face of a pandemic.

 

[wdwmom3]

That article is one of the oldest ones linked here and on a couple of other recent threads (it was published March 4 - 20 days ago). There isn't much data in the article to support a person's decision (not that we have a decision to make - the authorities decide for us). Astra Zeneca says here they don't have data to support this - true, their trials were months ago with a short dosing schedule to speed the vaccine to market. Since that time we have accumulated 2-3 months of data in a much larger trial - the general public. With millions of doses now administered scientists are getting much broader data on the efficacy of the vaccine in different scenarios. Yes, perhaps Canada (or more specifically NACI) is extending this further than other nations, but they aren't doing it randomly. The current data (as of March 24) still shows the decision to be mostly well supported, although there will probably be some adjustments to the NACI advice as some groups will need different dosing schedules. Interestingly, many other vaccines have a much wider gap between doses that were developed over time because they weren't rushed in the face of a pandemic.

You bring up a very good point. They wanted these vaccines out fast. So the manufactures likely choose a short dosing schedule to speed up their trials. If they had waited 3 months between doses, it would have added at least 2 months to the amount of time it took to approve their vaccine.

 

[MoreTravels]

That article is one of the oldest ones linked here and on a couple of other recent threads (it was published March 4 - 20 days ago). There isn't much data in the article to support a person's decision (not that we have a decision to make - the authorities decide for us). Astra Zeneca says here they don't have data to support this - true, their trials were months ago with a short dosing schedule to speed the vaccine to market. Since that time we have accumulated 2-3 months of data in a much larger trial - the general public. With millions of doses now administered scientists are getting much broader data on the efficacy of the vaccine in different scenarios. Yes, perhaps Canada (or more specifically NACI) is extending this further than other nations, but they aren't doing it randomly. The current data (as of March 24) still shows the decision to be mostly well supported, although there will probably be some adjustments to the NACI advice as some groups will need different dosing schedules. Interestingly, many other vaccines have a much wider gap between doses that were developed over time because they weren't rushed in the face of a pandemic.

But the problem is that this is a big "unknown". In keeping with our Disney forum theme here.... "Into the Unknown..."

What if this extended period, which was never tested, leads to something totally unexpected? For example, viral resistance? We know if we do not complete antibiotic on full dose and on schedule to treat infections, partial incomplete dosing will give germs a chance to become resistant. When you add extra doses of same antibiotics, it would be useless later. That is why we know we must complete any antibiotic treatment on time and at full doses, all the time.

Would the same thing happen with delaying this vaccine? Will there be an expected problem that was never thought of before? I wish there are more definitive scientific data to confirm one way or the other.

In any event, I totally agree we should get as many people vaccinated as possible. If there is sufficient supply, this would not even need to be a worry at all. I just hope the current European vaccine fight will not jeopardize our supply again.

 

[Average Joes]

The issue you raise is that does a less effective administration of a vaccine, which raises your immune systems ability to fight it, raise the risk of variants? Apparently the answer is 'maybe'. However, it may still be the better route to go:
www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/01/could-too-much-time-between-doses-drive-coronavirus-outwit-vaccines

 

[von Monster]

But the problem is that this is a big "unknown". In keeping with our Disney forum theme here.... "Into the Unknown..."

What if this extended period, which was never tested, leads to something totally unexpected? For example, viral resistance? We know if we do not complete antibiotic on full dose and on schedule to treat infections, partial incomplete dosing will give germs a chance to become resistant. When you add extra doses of same antibiotics, it would be useless later. That is why we know we must complete any antibiotic treatment on time and at full doses, all the time.

Would the same thing happen with delaying this vaccine? Will there be an expected problem that was never thought of before? I wish there are more definitive scientific data to confirm one way or the other.

In any event, I totally agree we should get as many people vaccinated as possible. If there is sufficient supply, this would not even need to be a worry at all. I just hope the current European vaccine fight will not jeopardize our supply again.

The issue you raise is that does a less effective administration of a vaccine, which raises your immune systems ability to fight it, raise the risk of variants? Apparently the answer is 'maybe'. However, it may still be the better route to go:
www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/01/could-too-much-time-between-doses-drive-coronavirus-outwit-vaccines

Once again - as has been stated repeatedly over and over again - is that we're playing with complete unknowns here and the science is fluid at best. The manufacturers picked 21/28 days as that was the shortest amount of time possible in order to start and complete the trials as fast as possible. The dosing interval selected had no other valid influence - normally this type of thing would be figured out over the decade plus that the trails would take; not 6 months. We don't even know if multiple shots are even required at this point - that type of thing would have also been tested during a much longer trial period.

So what the NACI is doing is following what the preliminary data is showing from delayed dosage in both Quebec and the UK; while factoring in the dosage intervals with most other innoculations which show greater amounts of time (and in some cases years if you look at your provincial vaccine schedule for everything else) between inoculations improves efficacy; with the understanding that even if the times alloted are best that having 100% of the population at 80%+ protected beats 50% of the population at 90%+.

I take the viewpoint that questioning the delays basically becomes spreading FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt) for no benefit to anyone. The science is evolving quickly so posting articles from January which don't have the latest data doesn't help either

 

[Average Joes]

I am in favour of getting as many needles in arms as possible even if it delays the second dose. I have echoed similar logic in respect of your calculations in paragraph 2 in the other vaccine discussion in the Canadian subsection. The article includes that viewpoint. I am typically of the opinion that to try and convince people of a viewpoint I generally have to acknowledge that their concerns may have some validity. Maybe I should have more forcefully noted my viewpoint but what I think is irrelevant.

Here is a more recent article from the New England Journal of Medicine www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMclde2101987 It appears to refer to similar concerns raised in the January article but on the whole supports the delay in the second dose. My point being that it was not unreasonable to post that January article.

 

[HappilyEverAfter80]

I am 100% worried that we are the only country that appears to be following this schedule, however, the alternative is canadians not vaccinated until something like December when other countries will be by this summer. It all goes back to how poorly our government handled the vaccines, but at this point spreading the doses appears to be the right decision for Canada. Better then the alternative anyway.

 

[MamaLema]

I am 100% worried that we are the only country that appears to be following this schedule, however, the alternative is canadians not vaccinated until something like December when other countries will be by this summer. It all goes back to how poorly our government handled the vaccines, but at this point spreading the doses appears to be the right decision for Canada. Better then the alternative anyway.

I am in the minority and feel ready to be attacked but I would rather people be fully vaccinated at the proper interval even if it means the rest of the population has to wait.
I’m also 100% worried no other country is doing this.

 

[HappilyEverAfter80]

I am in the minority and feel ready to be attacked but I would rather people be fully vaccinated at the proper interval even if it means the rest of the population has to wait.
I’m also 100% worried no other country is doing this.

Lots of experts and doctors even worry, so I don’t know why you’d be attacked. I wish we weren’t doing it this way either but hoping it’s the lesser evil of the two. We won’t know...
I thought at first that maybe it’s better we spread them out, now I feel like maybe not. Simply because COVID is still out of control here compared to countries that have been vaccinating faster and according to the schedule set out by the vaccine manufacturers. It is frustrating to hear that we might have more lockdowns and we won’t be out of this thing (somewhat) until October or so, when I talk to friends across the border and they are not only vaccinated or will be soon, but also told by CDC they can start getting together indoors without a mask if vaccinated. In Canada we are constantly told “now is still not the time” and so of course it’s super frustrating.
Back to what you said I am worried about this but I am really trying to believe that it’s the better way to go for Canada. What alternative do we have.

 

[starry_solo]

Not sure which vaccine dose you're mentioning, but here in US:

Pfizer - 21-42 days is the recommended time
Moderna - 28-42 days is the recommended time.

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/info-by-product/clinical-considerations.html
US CDC says "Currently, only limited data are available on efficacy of mRNA COVID-19 vaccines administered beyond this window."

I was able to get my parents' their 2nd shots on my own through their healthcare provider at exactly 21 and 28 days (they each got a different vaccine) after their first shot. Mine is at 26 days after the first shot (no availability 21 days and they tried to get me to go to 28 days).

I agree with the other posters that we don't know what the efficacy will be if the second shot is administered 4 months after the first one.

 

[Gigi22]

Not sure which vaccine dose you're mentioning, but here in US:

Pfizer - 21-42 days is the recommended time
Moderna - 28-42 days is the recommended time.

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/info-by-product/clinical-considerations.html
US CDC says "Currently, only limited data are available on efficacy of mRNA COVID-19 vaccines administered beyond this window."

I was able to get my parents' their 2nd shots on my own through their healthcare provider at exactly 21 and 28 days (they each got a different vaccine) after their first shot. Mine is at 26 days after the first shot (no availability 21 days and they tried to get me to go to 28 days).

I agree with the other posters that we don't know what the efficacy will be if the second shot is administered 4 months after the first one.

The issue was that we in Canada have been unable to secure a consistent, reliable supply of any of the approved vaccines in sufficient quantity to adhere to the manufacturer’s timelines. So, since there is real world evidence to show that vaccines provide a good level of immunity after just one dose, we are stretching the timeline for the second shot to four months. Ideal? Heck no, but if this strategy can give more people immunity faster, then we are going for it. Given our difficulty securing a supply, reserving a second dose for those people we were able to vaccinate first (initially LTC residents and those in healthcare) just didn’t make sense. Particularly in the face of recently growing “vaccine nationalism” among countries that manufacture vaccine, we are very grateful to the US for offering us 1.5 million doses. None of the other manufacturing countries has made an equivalent offer. With only 11-12% of Canadians vaccinated, we still have a long way to go.

 

[wdwmom3]

Not sure which vaccine dose you're mentioning, but here in US:

Pfizer - 21-42 days is the recommended time
Moderna - 28-42 days is the recommended time.

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/info-by-product/clinical-considerations.html
US CDC says "Currently, only limited data are available on efficacy of mRNA COVID-19 vaccines administered beyond this window."

I was able to get my parents' their 2nd shots on my own through their healthcare provider at exactly 21 and 28 days (they each got a different vaccine) after their first shot. Mine is at 26 days after the first shot (no availability 21 days and they tried to get me to go to 28 days).

I agree with the other posters that we don't know what the efficacy will be if the second shot is administered 4 months after the first one.

If we gave the doses when they manufactures say, we would not have many people vaccinated for a long time. We are facing a very real shortage of vaccines.

Sorry but it doesn’t help that countries like the US are not allowing companies to ship vaccines to other countries. Including AstraZeneca which is insane because the US hasn’t even approved it. I get they are sending us 1.5 million, but how many millions more are sitting in storage not going into arms because it’s not approved there.