Andrea Yates Getting New Trial

CharlesTD said:
That is all well and good but public defenders get paid a pittence compared to their private counterparts in teh US and I still doubt that it is 3 times more than life in prison. How about the cost of the guards and the cost of the food they eat and all teh other things that go along with that?

I'm just coming in at the end of this conversation. I seen it was pretty long, so I've avoided it till now.

Not all attorney's are appellant attorney's. So, your normal PD will not be able to handle the appellant issues. That's why it really adds a lot to the expense. It's not only paying the attorney either. It's court costs and they really contribute to the overall expense greatly.

On top of all that, you're still paying to feed and house these inmates for up to 30 years in some cases. I've seen some studies put the costs at up to $50,000 per inmate and some studies much lower into the $20,000 a year mark per inmate. That's paying CO's and running the entire facility.
 
CharlesTD said:
Hmm criminals up here must make much more than yours do in prison. Yes we actually do pay our criminals in prison it is measly ammounts but they do get paid plus they get paid on work release programs also it make me sick that I have to pay tax money that goes to these people especially people like Karla Homolka. I would lump her and this lady in teh same pot only Homolka was smart enough to use the husband as a sort of get out of jail free card.



I seen Jenny responding to this post and I wanted to respond as well. I didn't read back thru, so maybe it was addressed by someone else.

We pay our inmates too. I live in a town that actually has 2 state prisons in it. One is maximum security and one is medium security. I don't know much about the medium security prison, but hubby used to work in the maximum facility. In this prison, the inmates make all the registration stickers that every Pennsylvania resident is required to purchase each year for every automobile they own. They also make soaps in there too. The soap isn't really anything that anyone would want, it's mostly that hard stuff that doesn't melt (lol) that mechanics use? The inmates use it though! I'm not sure what these inmates are paid, but they do make a little something.

They can also get jobs in food service, and if they have good carpentry skills, they're able to go to that shop and make things. Lots of CO's will buy these products from the inmate at a VERY reduced cost.

It gets em cigarette money and what not though.
 
JennyMominRI said:
It's not the appeals that cost the most money it's the high cost of the initial capitial trial. A capital trial usually involves 3 times the amount of motions filed and 2 sererate Juries...

I don't understand why you're talking 2 juries Jenny? Are you talking pre trial, or are you talking a jury for conviction and a separate jury for sentencing?

I doubt jurors make up for this enormous costs though. Most are paid $12 (great state) a day to much less in some states and it's all taxed. Of course the entire voir dire process can be time consuming.
 
N.Bailey said:
I'm just coming in at the end of this conversation. I seen it was pretty long, so I've avoided it till now.

Not all attorney's are appellant attorney's. So, your normal PD will not be able to handle the appellant issues. That's why it really adds a lot to the expense. It's not only paying the attorney either. It's court costs and they really contribute to the overall expense greatly.

On top of all that, you're still paying to feed and house these inmates for up to 30 years in some cases. I've seen some studies put the costs at up to $50,000 per inmate and some studies much lower into the $20,000 a year mark per inmate. That's paying CO's and running the entire facility.

To add more to this, there are not enough appellant attorney's to handle the current cases. That's why it takes so long to get inmates thru the entire system till they finally reach an execution date.
 

Chicago526 said:
A valid arguement. Really, anyone that commits a violent crime DOES have some kind of mental defect. Where to draw the line between criminal behavior and mental illness is not a easy one. However, I think we can all agree that in THIS paticular case, Yates was totally insane.

I see that it's before the Supreme Court now whether to allow 911 calls in our court system. Opponents are arguing that the defendant doesn't get to face his/her accuser in some cases and that it's against their constitutional right. For domestic abuse cases, many woman decide not to press charges and with the record of the 911 calls, the DA can decide to prosecute anyway. In a murder case, the defendant doesn't get to face the accuser because he murdered the accuser! I hope and pray that the Supreme Court allows them to come into our courts!

Anyway, it's been said that statistically, the insane don't flee from the scene. They don't try to cover-up. That alone doesn't prove anything, if it did, I think everyone would start using it, but Andrea Yates picked that phone up and called 911 (did you ever hear the call?). She made no attempt to cover anything. That alone suggests that's she's insane.

Then bring in her medical history and IMO, any clear thinking person must conclude that this woman is indeed insane.

I am outraged that the prosecution tried to pull a fast one, though I'm not completely shocked. I'm just glad she gets another day in court.

Rusty should be brought up on charges too. Child endangerment would be a good place to start, IMO. He knew her history and forced her to home school all those kids. The woman was not at all stable and he put her in a position where she never had a break of any kind. Does it take a rocket scientist to determine that she'd snap? Oh wait, he was a NASA engineer wasn't he?
 
Quote:Rusty should be brought up on charges too. Child endangerment would be a good place to start, IMO. He knew her history and forced her to home school all those kids. The woman was not at all stable and he put her in a position where she never had a break of any kind. Does it take a rocket scientist to determine that she'd snap? Oh wait, he was a NASA engineer wasn't he? :Quote


I always felt that he should have been charged with something. Not only did the doctors fail her, but he pushed her over the edge. If you are told by the doctors not to have more kids because your wife is not well why would you say...we will have as many kids as God gives us? (or something to that effect).

If she was physically ill would he still have made her keep all those kids at home all day and would he have made her care for them with no help at all?
He failed his wife and he failed his children. And I think he should take some of the accountability for it.
 
brerrabbit said:
My wife and Andrea Yates grew up in the same neighborhood and my wife knew her family. When listening to my wife and my mother in law talk about that family and the things that went on its no wonder that Andrea grew up to be the person she was. Given all the things I know about her and her background I can say without reservation she deserves to be in prison for life.

Care to elaborate a little bit more?
 
Val said:
Andrea Yates is a good exemplar for guilty but insane. She DID commit the crime- and when she is on medication she can understand the implications of her actions. Without medication she is insane, legally and psychologically. She is always mentally ill- regardless of meds or not. Think of it as diabetes- the individual is always a diabetic, but can be medicated and regulate the blood sugar, or choose to be unregulated. Because she has a history of violent behavior when off her medications (and suidical when on them because of the memory of her actions), and because schizophrenia is extremely difficult to treat, I would advocate for continued hospitalization until there is strong evidence that she is in remission (which, giving current treatment guidelines, is extremley unlikely). She is not fit for a prison population- she would act out, cause more problems and probably become a victim. She should be in a locked mental hospital where she can be protected from herself. Her husband does bear some responsibility- but so does society in that we need to learn to actively treat the mentally ill and not ignore and shun them.

Schizophrenia is highly resistant to treatment and prognosis is very, very poor for those with active cases. I have spent much of my professional career working and doing research on schizophrenia and related diseases and see relatively little progress. If diseases such as cancer had such poor outcomes we would be up in arms and screaming at congress. When someone is diagnosed with cancer, we rush to the family's aide, send flowers and run telethons. When someone is diagnosed with a mental illness we shun and blame the family and the individual, hide, and ignore. Perhaps instead of blaming Andrea Yates we should see her case as a call to action for better treatments, better medication compliance, and greater research. What she did was beyond wrong, and she must pay the consequences. At the same time, she has little capacity to understand or prevent such violent behavior in the future- and thus she must be protected from herself. Perhaps if she had received adequate treatment this tragedy could have been avoided. In the children's memory, if nothing else, we need to fight for better treatment and research for the mentally ill.

Absolutely excellent post, thank you!
 
I honestly believe that she was desperately ill during the time period- but also quite aware that her actions toward her children constituted murder and also that murder is wrong. That is the legal standard applied.
This is the only problem I have with our legal standard for cases where insanity is considered. We have no problem accepting that a person who kills in self defense has a reason behind their actions and should not be held accountable because of those reasons. (even though they KNOW that killing someone else is constituted as murder and that murder is wrong).

But, while it is well known that while Andrea Yates knew that killing her children was legally and morally wrong, we do not also take into consideration that she also believed she was between a rock and hard place because she believed that she was saving her children from the devil by killing them. So, while she knew it was legally wrong and that she would face punishment for killing them, she believed that they would face much worse if she didn't kill them. I think that suggests that she was insane enough not to really be able to discern between right and wrong. From a psychiatrist who testified that AY was insane when she killed her children:
Resnick said he based his conclusion that Yates was insane on four factors -- that she had an unwavering and delusional belief that she was not raising her children correctly, that she believed Satan was within her, that she made no effort to hide her crime and that she had no rational alternative motive.

"She faced a cruel dilemma," Resnick said. "If she did nothing, because the children were not being raised righteously, they would burn in hell. She could allow them to end up in hell burning for eternity or take their lives on Earth. It was a horrible dilemma for any mother to have."

Resnick said Yates showed her love for the children in her willingness to be executed and go to hell to save them. She also believed her execution would rid the world of Satan, he said.

Resnick, who interviewed Yates for seven hours July 14 and Nov. 3, told jurors that a severe mental disease prevented her from knowing right from wrong when she drowned the children -- the legal definition of insanity under Texas law.

Yates knew her actions were illegal, he said, but she firmly believed that killing her children was the best thing to do.
IMO, she was insane and was delusional enough not to understand the legal difference between right and wrong when she killed her children. IMO, in her mind there was much more going on than our 'earthly laws and standards' when she killed her children. I think that is evidenced by her actions and statements. And I think it suggests that her reasoning was that of a legally insane person. Or what IMO should be considered legally insane.

As to what should happen to her? Well, I think there is no question that she should be permanently confined in an institution for the criminally (violently) insane. It really does not make any difference to me whether that is a prison or not, but I do think she was what should be considered legally insane when she killed her children.
 
I agree that she should be confined in a facility for the insane for the rest of her life. After all, if voices can tell her to kill her own kids, there's no telling what those voices might tell her next. Society needs to be protected from someone like her but putting her to death is just not something we do to the mentally ill. At least not those beyond a certain line.
 
JennyMominRI said:
Charles,I didn;t realize you were a neighbor to the north


Yep and I am very displeased with how our system handled the Bernardo case what a disgrace that was to the families of the slain young girls and the others that they found out about only after finally catching those 2 wacos.
 
N.Bailey said:
I seen Jenny responding to this post and I wanted to respond as well. I didn't read back thru, so maybe it was addressed by someone else.

We pay our inmates too. I live in a town that actually has 2 state prisons in it. One is maximum security and one is medium security. I don't know much about the medium security prison, but hubby used to work in the maximum facility. In this prison, the inmates make all the registration stickers that every Pennsylvania resident is required to purchase each year for every automobile they own. They also make soaps in there too. The soap isn't really anything that anyone would want, it's mostly that hard stuff that doesn't melt (lol) that mechanics use? The inmates use it though! I'm not sure what these inmates are paid, but they do make a little something.

They can also get jobs in food service, and if they have good carpentry skills, they're able to go to that shop and make things. Lots of CO's will buy these products from the inmate at a VERY reduced cost.

It gets em cigarette money and what not though.

I am not 100% sure on teh figure but I think our inmates get 15.00 a day to do nothing that is at minimum security playgrounds I call them. We have one in our city it is a joke they aren't required to do anything and they get paid for being in prison that burns my butt honestly.
 
Feralpeg said:
I only hope none of the people on this thread ever have to face mental illness either personally or through a family member. The lack of compassion I see toward the mentally ill just makes me sick, as do the holier than thou attitudes of those that have never been in such a situation. It is much easier to condem someone than try to understand them.
First, I was hospitalized for a week for mental illness, and am on medication for the rest of my life, so I think I understand a little about mental illness.
However, 5 innocent people were killed by someone. I don't care how mentally ill that person might be, I cannot get beyond that fact. No one cares if Son of Sam, John Wayne Gacy, Jeffrey Dahmer, etc. were totally insane-the fact is that they killed a bunch of people. So did she-I can't sympathize with anyone except the 5 innocent lives she took.
 
Simba's Mom said:
First, I was hospitalized for a week for mental illness, and am on medication for the rest of my life, so I think I understand a little about mental illness.
However, 5 innocent people were killed by someone. I don't care how mentally ill that person might be, I cannot get beyond that fact. No one cares if Son of Sam, John Wayne Gacy, Jeffrey Dahmer, etc. were totally insane-the fact is that they killed a bunch of people. So did she-I can't sympathize with anyone except the 5 innocent lives she took.

I didn't realize these that you cite had a history of mental illness?

I think you summed it up though, people don't care what Andrea's condition was, they simply want someone to pay. It's understandable to a certain extent, but I think it's sad that we leave our compassion at the door in some instances. Trust me, I don't think anyone out there supports the DP more than I do either.

I'm real curious as what will happen to the Ohio sniper, Charles McCoy Jr.. He has a well documented history schizophrenia. We'll just have to wait and see what the jury has to say I guess.
 


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