Andrea Yates Getting New Trial

Toby'sFriend said:
I'm just wondering - those who think her Psychiatric illness is an excuse for the Murder.

If you were to search the Texas prison system, you will find many people who have been convicted for horrendous crimes with lots of baggage. Murderers with IQs that make it questionable whether or not they even understood they were on trial, long histories of sexual and physical abuse as children that severaly warped their views of right and wrong -- alcoholics and drug addicts who were so incapacitated at the time of their actions that they don't even remember walking into the bars that night.

In my opinion, very few people murder for no reason at all. In all their minds, however warped they may be, they THINK they have a good reason for their actions. In her case, Andrea Yates thought that by murdering her children before they became old enough to sin, she was saving them from Satan.

I'm just curious as to where people think the line should be drawn? The law dictates that the person must have the ability to determne right from wrong. When the Police showed up at the Yates house that day (after she had called them), she told them (I'm paraphrasing from memory) "yes, I murdered them. Yes, I know that Murder is wrong and I expect to be executed."

It is interesting to me that how over the years, the opinions of this case has softened. If you were to read a bulletin board directly after the case -- at a time when coverage was much more prominent -- there was a far greater feeling of anger toward her. It seems to me that as time passes, the images of the five children and what they sufferred have really taken a back seat to feelings of sympathy toward Yates herself.

A valid arguement. Really, anyone that commits a violent crime DOES have some kind of mental defect. Where to draw the line between criminal behavior and mental illness is not a easy one. However, I think we can all agree that in THIS paticular case, Yates was totally insane.
 
However, I think we can all agree that in THIS paticular case, Yates was totally insane.

If by insane you mean she didn't have the mental capacity to realize that she was chasing her kids around the house, dragging them into the bathroom, and holding their heads underwater until they stopped breathing and their hearts stopped beating.

No, I don't agree with that at all.

She told Police that she fully understood Murder was illegal, by the laws of God and Man.
 
Toby'sFriend said:
If by insane you mean she didn't have the mental capacity to realize that she was chasing her kids around the house, dragging them into the bathroom, and holding their heads underwater until they stopped breathing and their hearts stopped beating.

No, I don't agree with that at all.

She told Police that she fully understood Murder was illegal, by the laws of God and Man.

I agree! She knew.

She should get the death Penalty. This is my opinion!!!!
 
I never thought I would find myself saying this, but I feel so much pity for this woman. Not that it any way compares to what her children went through, but can you imagine the private hell that she lives day in and day out? Of course many would say she deserves it, but I really and truly believe the system (and her husband) failed her and she was without question insane at the time of the murders.

In my eyes, this is not the same thing as someone who goes out and kills someone in the heat of passion and later claims "temporary insanity" as a desparate last ditch attempt to get off. Andrea's medical condition was well documented BEFORE this ever happened. She had been in and out of psychiatric hospitals and released, partly due to insurance running out!

She was already mentally unstable, add to that the fact that her husband introduced her to some sort of cult-like religious group in which the leader sent her letters about how good mothers protect their children from Satan by not allowing them to get to the point where they "lose their innocence", and that her husband, knowing she was ill to begin with, did not take any steps to prevent her from having more children. Then he left a mentally ill woman alone with 5 children day in and day out. I don't see how any reasonable person could not have seen this as a disaster waiting to happen. By his own admission, she was suicidal, and at times nearly catatonic when he came home from work. Why did he leave his children alone with her?

Just a horrible, tragic story all the way around...
 

Jynohn said:
I never thought I would find myself saying this, but I feel so much pity for this woman. Not that it any way compares to what her children went through, but can you imagine the private hell that she lives day in and day out? Of course many would say she deserves it, but I really and truly believe the system (and her husband) failed her and she was without question insane at the time of the murders.

In my eyes, this is not the same thing as someone who goes out and kills someone in the heat of passion and later claims "temporary insanity" as a desparate last ditch attempt to get off. Andrea's medical condition was well documented BEFORE this ever happened. She had been in and out of psychiatric hospitals and released, partly due to insurance running out!

She was already mentally unstable, add to that the fact that her husband introduced her to some sort of cult-like religious group in which the leader sent her letters about how good mothers protect their children from Satan by not allowing them to get to the point where they "lose their innocence", and that her husband, knowing she was ill to begin with, did not take any steps to prevent her from having more children. Then he left a mentally ill woman alone with 5 children day in and day out. I don't see how any reasonable person could not have seen this as a disaster waiting to happen. By his own admission, she was suicidal, and at times nearly catatonic when he came home from work. Why did he leave his children alone with her?

Just a horrible, tragic story all the way around...

I'm kind of surprised that more people under the influence of similar religious teaching don't "sacrifice themselves" for the sake of their children's souls. I was taught that (1) until the "age of accountability" a child who dies will go to heaven; (2) after the "age of accoutability" a child who dies will go to hell; (3) hell is a real place, with torment, torture and fire that will NEVER END.

If you believe that, it is a HUGE responsibility to bring children into the world...what if they reach the age of accountability (lots of folks believe it's at about 7 or 8 years old) and before they're saved, they die? They are then in eternal hell. Why not kill them BEFORE they reach the age of accountability? Even if you know it's a crime for which you could get the death penalty, you've assured them a place in heaven, which is much more important than life here on Earth.

Wouldn't a very mentally disturbed mind find the above to be quite convincing?
 
DVCLiz said:
The husband's responsibility aside, Andrea Yates is severely mentally ill. You can't hold her to the same standards you would a sane person, because she isn't. Sane, that is. As someone said, when she's getting medical treatment, she has enormous remorse for her actions. When she isn't, she's mentally ill again.

If her first trial had false testimony, that's grounds for a new one. Plain and simple. Just like every other American citizen. We don't judge by the standard of whether or not the criminal is sort of OK or really, really bad when we decide to grant a new trial. We use the same standard in each case - and false testimony is one of the reasons a new trial can be granted.

The fact that I personally think Andrea Yates should be punished for the rest of her life for killing her children is immaterial to her getting a new trial.

Sad, sad, sad.
Read your first paragraph. Then read your last line.

Don't you think she is being punished for the rest of her life?

Does it really matter where she physically is? She either lives with probaly overwhelming guilt (if properly medicated and "sane") or she's crazy.

Neither is a choice I'd make.
 
C.Ann said:
--------------------------

Same here.. I just wish her husband would have had to bear some accountability as well..
Ain't that the trtuh C.Ann!!!!
 
:earseek:
CharlesTD said:
Who cares a life for a life in cases like this is my feeling. Especially if it is your kids or wife or husband regarldess of the mindset ie mentally ill or not. Why waste your tax dollars trying to rehab a person that took her own kids lives forget it I am not that compassionate. That is one thing I wish our government up here would change I hope they some day bring back capital punishment rather than having the rest of us pay for the wackos locked up.
 
My wife and Andrea Yates grew up in the same neighborhood and my wife knew her family. When listening to my wife and my mother in law talk about that family and the things that went on its no wonder that Andrea grew up to be the person she was. Given all the things I know about her and her background I can say without reservation she deserves to be in prison for life.
 
KarenC said:
Administering capital punishment if FAR more costly to the taxpayers than life in prison. If your arguement for capital punishment is based on economics, you should argue against it. Our system isn't perfect and the appeals process is in place to ensure we don't execute innocents.
Administering capital punishment ifsFAR more costly to taxpayers because we don't actually execute those convicted for another 20 years usually, after multiple appeals and great amopunts of protest etc. I live in Connecticut, where we recently executed Michael Ross. The man was deemd competent. He requested execution after 20 years on death row because he felt "he owed it to the families of his victims". All reports spoke of him as an intelligent man, perfectly well aware of what was going on, perfectly well aware of what he had done, perfectly well aware of what his request for execution meant. And STILL there were people protesting. If a convicted felon got executed within a reasonable period of time, administering capital punishment would be a far less costly alternative to life in prison.
 
JennyMominRI said:
Charles actually it isn't.It costs 3 times more to execute someone than it does to keep them locked up for life
And your source for this information is...?
 
Charade said:
So... should we have a screening process for prospective birth parents like we have for adoptive parents?
Based on some of the brith parents I've encountered over the years, it probably wouldn't be a bad idea, but obviously impossible.

Haviung the ability to create a child doesn't automatically make one a parent.
 
brerrabbit said:
My wife and Andrea Yates grew up in the same neighborhood and my wife knew her family. When listening to my wife and my mother in law talk about that family and the things that went on its no wonder that Andrea grew up to be the person she was. Given all the things I know about her and her background I can say without reservation she deserves to be in prison for life.
So, she came from an unstable fmaily, therefore had an unstable childhood, grew up and married a man whose biggest goal in life was to keep pumping out kids, she cared for her ill FIL & 5 kids all at once with little or no support from her spouse or anyone else , it sounds like, and when she cracked, she cracked big.

From a bad childhood to a marriage with a man who had no concern for her welfare. Sounds like "the system" failed Andrea in a lot of ways for a lot of years.
 
Toby'sFriend said:
If by insane you mean she didn't have the mental capacity to realize that she was chasing her kids around the house, dragging them into the bathroom, and holding their heads underwater until they stopped breathing and their hearts stopped beating.

No, I don't agree with that at all.

She told Police that she fully understood Murder was illegal, by the laws of God and Man.


I so agree with this. It wasn't like she went about her day as if nothing happened, she called the police, she knew it was wrong. She has mental issues, but she is not insane. Now back to the OP...does she deserve a new trail? Based on our laws yes she does. Will the outcome be any different? I hope not.
 
Wish I lived in Fl said:
As for the shellshocked Grandfather that was hospitalized so he wouldn't harm others. That is exactly what has been lost in America, budget cuts closed down many mental hospitals and now the mentally ill have to fight hard for a slight chance of covered treatment just when they they are least competent.

One man was executed (i think it was in Texas), his family had begged for treatment for himbut was refused because there wasn't "proof" he was a danger to others. Then when he finally did kill, the evidence of his mental illness was denied to the jurors. Again it was schizophrenia.


That was my grandfather and for this I am thankfull ofour government run healthcare system this way the people like my great grandfather get a place to stay before they become a problem.
 
Disney Doll said:
And your source for this information is...?


Thanks for asking the question that I had on my mind. I mean how can it be 3 times more expensive an execution takes a doctor to pronounce and executioner and physician to administer. Ok so there is some higher costs there but you pay it one time and I doubt it is as much as paying for somone to spend their life in jail or in a mental hospital especially in the US.
 
CharlesTD said:
Thanks for asking the question that I had on my mind. I mean how can it be 3 times more expensive an execution takes a doctor to pronounce and executioner and physician to administer. Ok so there is some higher costs there but you pay it one time and I doubt it is as much as paying for somone to spend their life in jail or in a mental hospital especially in the US.

The appeals process is very expensive and time consuming. By the time someone is at the point of appealing a death sentence, they have exhausted their private funds and are often assigned a public defender who must be paid, etc. The legal wrangling goes on for years.
 
DawnCt1 said:
The appeals process is very expensive and time consuming. By the time someone is at the point of appealing a death sentence, they have exhausted their private funds and are often assigned a public defender who must be paid, etc. The legal wrangling goes on for years.

That is all well and good but public defenders get paid a pittence compared to their private counterparts in teh US and I still doubt that it is 3 times more than life in prison. How about the cost of the guards and the cost of the food they eat and all teh other things that go along with that?
 
CharlesTD said:
Hmm criminals up here must make much more than yours do in prison. Yes we actually do pay our criminals in prison it is measly ammounts but they do get paid plus they get paid on work release programs also it make me sick that I have to pay tax money that goes to these people especially people like Karla Homolka. I would lump her and this lady in teh same pot only Homolka was smart enough to use the husband as a sort of get out of jail free card.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karla_Homolka
Charles,I didn;t realize you were a neighbor to the north
 
Disney Doll said:
Administering capital punishment ifsFAR more costly to taxpayers because we don't actually execute those convicted for another 20 years usually, after multiple appeals and great amopunts of protest etc. I live in Connecticut, where we recently executed Michael Ross. The man was deemd competent. He requested execution after 20 years on death row because he felt "he owed it to the families of his victims". All reports spoke of him as an intelligent man, perfectly well aware of what was going on, perfectly well aware of what he had done, perfectly well aware of what his request for execution meant. And STILL there were people protesting. If a convicted felon got executed within a reasonable period of time, administering capital punishment would be a far less costly alternative to life in prison.
It's not the appeals that cost the most money it's the high cost of the initial capitial trial. A capital trial usually involves 3 times the amount of motions filed and 2 sererate Juries... The appeals costs are a drop in the bucket.
Cutting out the appeals and executing them a couple years later would not drop the cost by much

The Cost of the Death Penalty

One of the least obvious, but most important problems with the death penalty is it’s enormous cost. Research on cost has consistently shown that pursuing a capital case is at least twice as costly as housing a convicted murderer for life in a high security correctional institution. Cost studies in North Carolina, Kansas, Texas, Kentucky, Nebraska and New York all show varying costs but similar ratios with regard to expense of death as a sentencing option:

In New York each death penalty trial costs $1.4 million compared with $602,000 for life imprisonment. The cost of imposing the death penalty in New York State has been estimated to be $3 million for each case (NY Daily News, July, 28, 1998).
In Florida the cost of each execution was estimated to be $3.2 million, about 6 times the amount needed to incarcerate a convicted murderer for life. From 1973 to 1988 Florida spent $57 million on the death penalty (Miami Herald, July 10, 1988).
In Kentucky the cost of a capital trial varied between $2 and $5 million dollars (Blakley, A.F. 1990. Cost of Killing Criminals. Northern Kentucky Law Review 18, 1: 61-79).
The most comprehensive study of the costs of the death penalty found that the state of North Carolina spends $2.16 million more per execution than for a non-capital murder trial resulting in imprisonment for life (Duke University, May 1993; Carter, M. 1995. Cost of the Death Penalty: An Introduction to the Issue. Nebraska Legislature, Legislative Research Division; Cook, P.J. and D.B. Slawson. 1993. Costs of Processing Murder Cases in North Carolina. North Carolina Administrative Office of the Courts.).
In California the death penalty adds $90 million annually to the costs of the criminal justice system. $78 million of that cost is incurred at the trial level (Sacramento Bee, March 18, 1988).
The Judiciary Committee of the Nebraska legislature reported that any savings from executions are outweighed by the legal costs of a death penalty case. The report concluded that death penalty does not serve the best interests of Nebraskans (Nebraska Press & Dakotan, January 27, 1998; Carter, M. 1995. Cost of the Death Penalty: An Introduction to the Issue. Nebraska Legislature, Legislative Research Division.).
In Texas the cost of capital punishment is estimated to be $2.3 million per death sentence, three times the cost of imprisoning someone at the highest possible security level, in a single prisoner cell for 40 years (Dallas Morning News, March 8, 1992; Dieter, R.C. 1994. Future of the Death Penalty in the U.S.: A Texas-Sized Crisis. Death Penalty Information Center. Washington, D.C.).

$ Tennessee Study Finds Death penalty Costly, Ineffective

A new report released by the Tennessee Comptroller of the Treasury recommended changes to the stateÕs costly death penalty and called into question its effectiveness in preventing crime. The Office of Research noted that it lacked sufficient data to accurately account for the total cost of capital trials, stating that because cost and time records were not maintained, the Office of Research was unable to determine the total, comprehensive cost of the death penalty in Tennessee." Although noting that, "no reliable data exists concerning the cost of prosecution or defense of first-degree murder cases in Tennessee," the report concluded that capital murder trials are longer and more expensive at every step compared to other murder trials. In fact, the available data indicated that in capital trials, taxpayers pay half again as much as murder cases in which prosecutors seek prison terms rather than the death penalty. Findings in the report include the following:

Death penalty trials cost an average of 48% more than the average cost of trials in which prosecutors seek life imprisonment.
Tennessee District Attorneys General are not consistent in their pursuit of the death penalty.
Surveys and interviews of district attorneys indicate that some prosecutors "use the death penalty as a 'bargaining chip' to secure plea bargains for lesser sentences."
Previous research provides no clear indication whether the death penalty acts as a method of crime prevention.
The Tennessee Court of Criminal Appeals reversed 29 percent of capital cases on direct appeal.
Although any traumatic trial may cause stress and pain for jurors, the victims' family, and the defendant's family, the pressure may be at its peak during death penalty trials.

(July 2004)
Read the The Tennessee Comptroller of the Treasury Office of Research's Report, "Tennessee's Death Penalty: Costs and Consequences."


$ Kansas Study Concludes Death Penalty is Costly Policy
In its review of death penalty expenses, the State of Kansas concluded that capital cases are 70% more expensive than comparable non-death penalty cases. The study counted death penalty case costs through to execution and found that the median death penalty case costs $1.26 million. Non-death penalty cases were counted through to the end of incarceration and were found to have a median cost of $740,000. For death penalty cases, the pre-trial and trial level expenses were the most expensive part, 49% of the total cost. The costs of appeals were 29% of the total expense, and the incarceration and execution costs accounted for the remaining 22%. In comparison to non-death penalty cases, the following findings were revealed:

The investigation costs for death-sentence cases were about 3 times greater than for non-death cases.
The trial costs for death cases were about 16 times greater than for non-death cases ($508,000 for death case; $32,000 for non-death case).
The appeal costs for death cases were 21 times greater.
The costs of carrying out (i.e. incarceration and/or execution) a death sentence were about half the costs of carrying out a non-death sentence in a comparable case.
Trials involving a death sentence averaged 34 days, including jury selection; non-death trials averaged about 9 days.
(Performance Audit Report: Costs Incurred for Death Penalty Cases: A K-GOAL Audit of the Department of Corrections) Read DPIC's Summary of the Kansas Cost Report.


$ Death penalty trials very costly relative to county budgets
Capital cases burden county budgets with large unexpected costs, according to a report released by the National Bureau of Economic Research, "The Budgetary Repercussions of Capital Convictions," by Katherine Baicker. Counties manage these high costs by decreasing funding for highways and police and by increasing taxes. The report estimates that between 1982-1997 the extra cost of capital trials was $1.6 billion. (NBER Working Paper No. w8382, Issued in July 2001) Read the abstract.


$ Total cost of Indiana's death penalty is 38% greater than the total cost of life without parole sentences
A study by Indiana's Criminal Law Study Commission found this to be true, assuming that 20% of death sentences are overturned and resentenced to life. (Indiana Criminal Law Study Commission, January 10, 2002)



$ North Carolina spends more per execution than on a non-death penalty murder case
The most comprehensive death penalty study in the country found that the death penalty costs North Carolina $2.16 million more per execution than the a non-death penalty murder case with a sentence of life imprisonment (Duke University, May 1993). On a national basis, these figures translate to an extra cost of over $1 billion spent since 1976 on the death penalty. The study,"The Costs of Processing Murder Cases in North Carolina" is available on line at www-pps.aas.duke.edu/people/faculty/cook/comnc.pdf.



$ Florida spends millions extra per year on death penalty
Florida would save $51 million each year by punishing all first-degree murderers with life in prison without parole, according to estimates by the Palm Beach Post. Based on the 44 executions Florida has carried out since 1976, that amounts to an approximate cost of $24 million for each execution. This finding takes into account the relatively few inmates who are actually executed, as well as the time and effort expended on capital defendants who are tried but convicted of a lesser murder charge, and those whose deathe sentences are overturned on appeal. (Palm Beach Post, January 4, 2000)



$ California spends millions more on capital cases
California spends $90 Million dollars annually above and beyond the ordinary costs of the justice system on capital cases. $78 million of that total is incurred at the trial level (Sacramento Bee, March 18, 1988). In January 2003, despite a budge deficit, California Governor Gray Davis proposed building a new $220 million state of the art death row. (New York Times, January 14, 2003)



$ Florida spent average of $3.2 million per execution from 1973 to 1988
During that time period, Florida spent an estimated $57 million on the death penalty to achieve 18 executions. (Miami Herald, July 10, 1988)



$ Texas death penalty cases cost more than non-capital cases
That is about three times the cost of imprisoning someone in a single cell at the highest security level for 40 years. (Dallas Morning News, March 8, 1992)
 


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