Amanda Knox- Guilty

[eliza61]

From what I understand, another HUGE difference between the Italian justice system and the American system is the threshold in Italy isn't nearly as stringent for the initial trial, but becomes more so during the appellant process. In other words, we demand the highest of scrutiny during the initial trial, then the appeals rules more in favor of maybe new evidence coming to light, and/or if the defendant received a fair trial (and this could be for almost any dumb reason - one conviction was overturned because the family members wore a button into the courtroom that had the victim's picture on it - their son in this case). In Italy, it seems like the standard isn't as high as it is at home, but as the appeals go forward, the threshold of guilt increases.

I found this amusing as many Italians I know will offer quite a bit of proof of the superiority of their justice system as opposed to ours.

As Americans were are in no position to cast aspersions on another country especially a very fine one such as Italy judicial system.

 

[N.Bailey]

I found this amusing as many Italians I know will offer quite a bit of proof of the superiority of their justice system as opposed to ours.

As Americans were are in no position to cast aspersions on another country especially a very fine one such as Italy judicial system.

I certainly wasn't trying to suggest that they should change their laws to accommodate an American who might be on trial in that country.

That said, yes, I am allowed to hold an opinion on their justice system and IMO, it's nowhere near close to our own. I gave specific reasons why I believe the way I do.

 

[eliza61]

I certainly wasn't trying to suggest that they should change their laws to accommodate an American who might be on trial in that country.

That said, yes, I am allowed to hold an opinion on their justice system and IMO, it's nowhere near close to our own. I gave specific reasons why I believe the way I do.

I know, just remember that we are biased. I know next to nothing about the Italian legal system, but I do know many Europeans who swear our system is about as corrupt and flawed as any. Who's right? Or maybe it's not as simple as better or worst. As a minority I know many Americans who don't put much faith in our justice system.

 

[N.Bailey]

I know, just remember that we are biased. I know next to nothing about the Italian legal system, but I do know many Europeans who swear our system is about as corrupt and flawed as any. Who's right? Or maybe it's not as simple as better or worst. As a minority I know many Americans who don't put much faith in our justice system.

Corrupt? You mean like withholding exculpatory evidence from the defense? Or maybe, bringing someone to trial who may be innocent just so you can get re-elected?

Sure, all of this happens right here in our own backyard.

Corruption in the US however isn't only occurring in our courtrooms, nor do I believe that the US holds the patent on it.

I don't know about you, but if I were on trial, I would want 12 jurors (6 regular jurors in Italy and 2 professional ones - though there are times when we have 6 here). I would also want my attorney questioning those jurors during Vio Dire, to make sure they don't hold any preconceived prejudices (in Italy, 6 are just chosen, attorneys do not question them at all - according to news reports, I don't know Italian law, so I am taking reporters at their word). I would also rather have a unanimous verdict to be convicted (Italy it's the majority and if it's a tie, the judge decides). Now I'll grant you, reducing that to say 10 of 12 in the US would do away with our problem of stealth jurors. All of the above just make our threshold much stronger than is seen in Italian courts.

 

[aristocatz]

Just curious-- where are you getting all your facts about this case?
How much of this case do you know? How much of this case has been made public? Without all the facts, it's hard to come to difinitive conclusions. I am interrested in why you are so convinced? Can you point our your sources?

I've been following this case since it began. My sources are CNN, MSNBC documentaries, Larry King, Interviews with Amanda's parents, many news articles, etc...The last few days, there has been ALOT of coverage about this case on the new stations mentioned above, with interviews with some of the lawyers and reporter coverage.

Here is a website that states basic facts:
http://www.mahalo.com/amanda-knox

Like I said, I have been following this case for a long time. My heart breaks for Amanda and her family & I believe her to be innocent and a victim herself. Others may have different views on this case, but I support this young girl and I pray that she gets justice.

 

[FireDancer]

I don't know about you, but if I were on trial, I would want 12 jurors (6 regular jurors in Italy and 2 professional ones - though there are times when we have 6 here). I would also want my attorney questioning those jurors during Vio Dire, to make sure they don't hold any preconceived prejudices (in Italy, 6 are just chosen, attorneys do not question them at all - according to news reports, I don't know Italian law, so I am taking reporters at their word). I would also rather have a unanimous verdict to be convicted (Italy it's the majority and if it's a tie, the judge decides). Now I'll grant you, reducing that to say 10 of 12 in the US would do away with our problem of stealth jurors. All of the above just make our threshold much stronger than is seen in Italian courts.

And if you commit a crime in the US you will get all of those things. If you commit a crime in Italy you will get their system. Notice that the prosecution also doesn't get to question the jurors. That is often selectively left out in this case. The lower amount of jurors can also work both ways. Yes all 12 are needed to convict but all 12 are also needed to acquit. Anything less is a hung jury. Perhaps their seems unfair because they aren't as willing to err on the side of the defense as we are. In much of the world they don't. Maybe that is better, maybe it is not. I can think of advantages to both. In the end whatever the criteria was to access guilt in Italy was met by the prosecution. That is pretty much the bottom line.

I was embarrassed at many times throughout the trial at our media pretending we were superior to Italy and wanting her trial done our way. The cockiness of that sentiment bothered me much more than the system itself and how it compared to ours.

 

[EveDallas]

If you commit a crime in Italy you will get their system.

This sentence says it all. When you make the choice to be in a foreign country, you accept their rules and laws. Period. If you don't like it, stay in America.

 

[dismom2]

I'm trying to understand this from all angles. How does someone explain things such as this:

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/view/55277/Amanda-Knox-led-ritual-killing-/

Amanda Knox visited a supermarket early on the morning Meredith Kercher's body was found, despite telling police she was in bed until 10am, a witness has claimed.
Testifying in a Perugia court, store manager Marco Quintavalle confirmed he believed Amanda Knox was the blue-eyed girl who had been waiting to enter his shop when he opened it at 7:45am on November 2, 2007.

Reporter Nick Pisa told Sky News: "Knox has always insisted she was at the house of her boyfriend, co-defendent Raffaele Sollecito, that morning and that she got up around 10am to go home and take a shower.

"This is being put into question by the court evidence of Mr Quintavalle, who also said in court that the girl he identified as Amanda Knox walked to the cleaning product section of the store.

"He couldn't remember if she had bought anything.

"It is of interest that when police searched Sollecito's house days after the murder, they found a receipt for cleaning products from the shop where Knox was allegedly seen."

Detectives believe bleach and cloths found under the sink at Sollecito's house were used to clean up the murder weapon - a knife - and the murder scene itself after Miss Kercher's death on the night of November 1.

Mr Quintavalle told the court: "I was inside and I opened the shutters of my supermarket at 7.45am.

"Outside I saw a girl waiting to come inside, she came in and I was struck by how pale she looked and also by her clear blue eyes.

"She had a hat and jeans on but what struck me was how pale she looked and the colour of her blue eyes, I can still see them in front of me now.

"She was young, around 20 or 21 years old, she came in and went to the section at the back of the supermarket on the left where there are the cleaning products.
"I can't remember if she bought anything. A few hours later I heard about the murder and then a few days later I saw Amanda's picture in the newspaper and I recognised her as the same girl.

"The shape of the face was the same, as was the nose, she was pretty. For me the girl in the newspapers was the same girl who had come into my supermarket at 7.45 in the morning."

When asked by trial judge Giancarlo Massei if he recognised the girl from the supermarket in court Mr Quintavalle said: "It's her, I'm sure of it." There was no reaction from Knox.

Both Sollecito and Knox have denied wrongdoing in the case.

Meanwhile, detectives in Perugia are continuing to investigate a second break-in at the house where Miss Kercher was killed.

Local media have reported that a mattress and pillows were taken - perhaps in a bid to show how easy it was to access the crime scene - but this could not be confirmed by police.

 

[ford family]

That said, yes, I am allowed to hold an opinion on their justice system and IMO, it's nowhere near close to our own. I gave specific reasons why I believe the way I do.

Looking at cases like O J Simpson and Rodney King I would think the US system is inferior to the Italian one.

ford family

 

[N.Bailey]

And if you commit a crime in the US you will get all of those things. If you commit a crime in Italy you will get their system. Notice that the prosecution also doesn't get to question the jurors. That is often selectively left out in this case. The lower amount of jurors can also work both ways. Yes all 12 are needed to convict but all 12 are also needed to acquit. Anything less is a hung jury. Perhaps their seems unfair because they aren't as willing to err on the side of the defense as we are. In much of the world they don't. Maybe that is better, maybe it is not. I can think of advantages to both. In the end whatever the criteria was to access guilt in Italy was met by the prosecution. That is pretty much the bottom line.

I was embarrassed at many times throughout the trial at our media pretending we were superior to Italy and wanting her trial done our way. The cockiness of that sentiment bothered me much more than the system itself and how it compared to ours.

Well, you're the 2nd person to address my post, so I want to be 100% crystal clear that I do not believe a country should accommodate criminals that are not citizens of the country when laws are broken while visiting them. My posts are discussing the differences, not challenging the fairness of the trial. In this case, Amanda Knox got the fairest trial that she could have under the Italian system of government. If she didn't want to abide by Italian law (regardless if she's guilty or innocent) she should have never went there in the first place.

I will say though that yes, it does take 12 jurors to acquit, but at that time, it's in the hands of the state to try the case again or not. Normally, jurors are polled and if it's not coming close to a majority, the state will make the decision to not try it again. They know they have a weak case and a subsequent trail/trials, would just be too costly. If it's 11/12 in favor of guilt (that lone stealth juror), yes, they will try it again. Those stealth jurors really can add to the expense of the criminal process in the states and that's unfortunate.

And while I hate erring on the side of the defense, I think it's the most essential aspect of our justice system. The state has an obligation to prove guilt, and if they can't do that, there should be no conviction, period. At times, that may mean the guilty go free, but IMO (and I can appreciate that not everyone agrees), it's better to let someone go free than to incarcerate someone who is innocent.

If you followed the Natalee Holloway case in Aruba, we saw pretty much the same thing. Keep in mind though too, if you followed the JonBenet Ramsey case out of Colorado, people were equally as outspoken about the way the Boulder police handled the investigation. The pundits IMO, are equal opportunity bashers when they see what they believe is a miscarriage of justice.

 

[N.Bailey]

I'm trying to understand this from all angles. How does someone explain things such as this:

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/view/55277/Amanda-Knox-led-ritual-killing-/

Amanda Knox visited a supermarket early on the morning Meredith Kercher's body was found, despite telling police she was in bed until 10am, a witness has claimed.
Testifying in a Perugia court, store manager Marco Quintavalle confirmed he believed Amanda Knox was the blue-eyed girl who had been waiting to enter his shop when he opened it at 7:45am on November 2, 2007.

Reporter Nick Pisa told Sky News: "Knox has always insisted she was at the house of her boyfriend, co-defendent Raffaele Sollecito, that morning and that she got up around 10am to go home and take a shower.

"This is being put into question by the court evidence of Mr Quintavalle, who also said in court that the girl he identified as Amanda Knox walked to the cleaning product section of the store.

"He couldn't remember if she had bought anything.

"It is of interest that when police searched Sollecito's house days after the murder, they found a receipt for cleaning products from the shop where Knox was allegedly seen."

Detectives believe bleach and cloths found under the sink at Sollecito's house were used to clean up the murder weapon - a knife - and the murder scene itself after Miss Kercher's death on the night of November 1.

Mr Quintavalle told the court: "I was inside and I opened the shutters of my supermarket at 7.45am.

"Outside I saw a girl waiting to come inside, she came in and I was struck by how pale she looked and also by her clear blue eyes.

"She had a hat and jeans on but what struck me was how pale she looked and the colour of her blue eyes, I can still see them in front of me now.

"She was young, around 20 or 21 years old, she came in and went to the section at the back of the supermarket on the left where there are the cleaning products.
"I can't remember if she bought anything. A few hours later I heard about the murder and then a few days later I saw Amanda's picture in the newspaper and I recognised her as the same girl.

"The shape of the face was the same, as was the nose, she was pretty. For me the girl in the newspapers was the same girl who had come into my supermarket at 7.45 in the morning."

When asked by trial judge Giancarlo Massei if he recognised the girl from the supermarket in court Mr Quintavalle said: "It's her, I'm sure of it." There was no reaction from Knox.

Both Sollecito and Knox have denied wrongdoing in the case.

Meanwhile, detectives in Perugia are continuing to investigate a second break-in at the house where Miss Kercher was killed.

Local media have reported that a mattress and pillows were taken - perhaps in a bid to show how easy it was to access the crime scene - but this could not be confirmed by police.

That's why I said in my first post, those jurors heard way more than I did (and that's probably true for most of us). How can we sit here without knowing all the facts and say they got it wrong? I know someone who is innocent should have to reason to change their story.

 

[OceanAnnie]

Amanda Knox: U.S. backlash grows as Hillary Clinton is called in over jailing



Hillary Clinton has been drawn into the battle to overturn Amanda Knox's conviction.

Amid a growing U.S. backlash against the verdict, the American Secretary of State has agreed to meet a senator from 22-year-old Knox's home state of Washington.

On Friday night, Knox was found guilty of the drug-fuelled sex murder of British student Meredith Kercher and jailed for 26 years.

Her conviction, alongside her Italian former boyfriend Raffaele Sollecito, came in tense late-night scenes in the Italian town of Perugia at the end of a year-long trial. Sollecito, 25, was jailed for 25 years.

Last night, Miss Kercher's family told of their anguish for the first time since her killer was jailed.

Her mother Arline, 64, said the entire family had been given a 'life sentence' and were 'living in a nightmare' for the two years since she was slain.

She also revealed how they keep the 21-year-old's bedroom exactly as it was when she left in the vain hope she will one day come home.

Miss Kercher's semi-naked body was found in November 2007 in a pool of blood in the bedroom of the home she and Knox shared in Perugia.

The court heard that Miss Kercher, from Coulsdon, Surrey, was subjected to a terrifying ordeal when she returned to her Italian home after an evening with friends.

Knox, Sollecito and another man, drifter Rudy Guede, attempted to involve the Leeds University student in a sex game, cutting her throat when she refused and leaving her to die in 'slow agony'. Guede, 22, was convicted of murder and sexual assault last year and jailed for 30 years.

After the verdicts, Knox's furious father Curt Knox vowed to fight to clear his daughter's name and spoke of his 'anger and disbelief' at the Italian justice system.

His campaign seems to be gaining support on Capitol Hill. Senator Maria Cantwell, from Washington state, declared there were 'serious questions about the Italian justice system'.

She said she was concerned there had been an 'anti-American' feeling at the trial and said she would be raising her concerns with Mrs Clinton.

'The prosecution did not present enough evidence for an impartial jury to conclude beyond a reasonable doubt that Miss Knox was guilty,' she said. 'Italian jurors were allowed to view highly negative news coverage about Miss Knox.'

She said Knox, who called herself Foxy Knoxy on a web page, had been a victim of 'harsh treatment' and branded handling of evidence 'negligent'.

Mrs Clinton was asked about the trial in an appearance on a U.S. news programme.

She said: 'Of course I'll meet with Senator Cantwell or anyone who has a concern but I can't offer any opinion about that at this time.'

She said she had not expressed any concerns to the Italian government. Last night, Knox's Italian lawyer distanced himself from the senator's claims. Luciano Ghirga said: 'That's all we need, Hillary Clinton involved. I have the same political sympathies as Hillary but this sort of thing does not help us in any way.'

Prosecutor Giuliano Mignini said: 'This senator should not interfere in something she has no idea about. I am happy with how the trial went.'

Knox plans to appeal against her conviction, but if it is unsuccessful she is likely to have to serve the bulk of her 26-year sentence inside an Italian jail. As in Britain, prisoners can be released on licence, but Knox is unlikely to be eligible for even day release for at least 20 years.

She could make an application to serve her sentence in the U.S.

On Saturday, Knox's father, mother Edda Mellas, her sister and half-sisters visited her at Capanne prison, just outside Perugia.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ash-grows-Hillary-Clinton-called-jailing.html

 

[wvjules]

Well, you're the 2nd person to address my post, so I want to be 100% crystal clear that I do not believe a country should accommodate criminals that are not citizens of the country when laws are broken while visiting them. My posts are discussing the differences, not challenging the fairness of the trial. In this case, Amanda Knox got the fairest trial that she could have under the Italian system of government. If she didn't want to abide by Italian law (regardless if she's guilty or innocent) she should have never went there in the first place.
I will say though that yes, it does take 12 jurors to acquit, but at that time, it's in the hands of the state to try the case again or not. Normally, jurors are polled and if it's not coming close to a majority, the state will make the decision to not try it again. They know they have a weak case and a subsequent trail/trials, would just be too costly. If it's 11/12 in favor of guilt (that lone stealth juror), yes, they will try it again. Those stealth jurors really can add to the expense of the criminal process in the states and that's unfortunate.

And while I hate erring on the side of the defense, I think it's the most essential aspect of our justice system. The state has an obligation to prove guilt, and if they can't do that, there should be no conviction, period. At times, that may mean the guilty go free, but IMO (and I can appreciate that not everyone agrees), it's better to let someone go free than to incarcerate someone who is innocent.

If you followed the Natalee Holloway case in Aruba, we saw pretty much the same thing. Keep in mind though too, if you followed the JonBenet Ramsey case out of Colorado, people were equally as outspoken about the way the Boulder police handled the investigation. The pundits IMO, are equal opportunity bashers when they see what they believe is a miscarriage of justice.

And if she didn't commit this crime then she didn't break the law.

 

[ogreenlee]

Hillary Clinton knows that she can't do jack squat because the US Consulate was brought in, and she was legally represented.

 

[ogreenlee]

Oh, and from the news this morning... apparently she can have the whole thing brought to a complete retrial in her appeal. That is something we cannot do in the US. So maybe the next trial will seem more fair.

 

[eliza61]

That's why I said in my first post, those jurors heard way more than I did (and that's probably true for most of us). How can we sit here without knowing all the facts and say they got it wrong? I know someone who is innocent should have to reason to change their story.

And if she didn't commit this crime then she didn't break the law.

And if she did commit the crime?

That's the whole rub. We are bystanders getting the American version of every thing and getting it late at that.

I'm an American so naturally I lean toward our justice system but I'm not about to suggest that the Italian system is corrupt or worse than any other nations. We are getting information 3 hand and let's not even pretend that our media is above getting the story wrong or giving the public what they want to hear.

US backlash can grow all it wants but this is not happening in the US and the Italians have the right to defend their justice system.

I will continue to pray for the family of the murder victim who seems to be the true forgotten victim in this.

 

[okeydokey]

I just can't over the fact that the trial lasted almost a year.

 

[Joanne UK]

Why do Americans automatically presume that the Italian Courts acted in an Anti American way?

An Italian man was convicted along with Amanda Knox on Friday night for his part in the crime too and he was sentenced to 25 years.

The victims in this are Meredith Kercher and her grieving family, not Amanda Knox.

 

[PaulaSB12]

Why do Americans automatically presume that the Italian Courts acted in an Anti American way?

An Italian man was convicted along with Amanda Knox on Friday night for his part in the crime too and he was sentenced to 25 years.

The victims in this are Meredith Kercher and her grieving family, not Amanda Knox.

I am not american and I do not believe justice has been served. There is a man who has confessed to hiding the murder weapon for his brother a man to whom rape is not unknown. Also the other young man is also appealing against the conviction. This is more to do with her morals, and in the uk alone I have seen too many cases where the police have totally got the right person only to find they are innocent to trust them any more. Ie Colin Stagg this man had to live with the police saying he had got away with a brutal murder til they had to pay over half a million in compensation when they actually convicted the killer. Too many police forces just want to clean up a public case without being too bothered on who they convict.

 

[Hooked On The Mouse]

I'm going to take the risk of commenting on this "ugly American" speculation. As a foreigner who has travelled extensively in your country, I must say that I think this perception of anti-Americanism is overblown. We have met lots of Americans of all different sorts in different parts of the country, and thought that 99.9% of you were just lovely people. So I question whether anti-Americanism has played into this case at all, much less extensively.
I think it's also important to note that while the Italian justice system is different from the American system, Italy is a civilized reasonable country and it is difficult to believe that they are beating suspects, etc. There are countries in the world where that kind of corruption still exists, but I doubt that Italy is among them.
As for Amanda Knox herself, I cannot fairly say that I'm certain she's guilty, but I will say that she struck me throughout as a very strange young woman, with reactions that certainly could be interpreted as guilty and callous. In any country in the world, a suspect that acts in such a way as to appear guilty, has stacked the cards against themselves and will then have a harder job to establish their innocence. This is true in American courts as well.