Amanda Knox- Guilty

[Lisa loves Pooh]

I knew there was one guy that was convicted. I didn't know what his role was, that he actually committed the murder. I had heard some of the "mastermind" talk, but it doesn't make sense. Did the guy implicate her? I imagine he did, but still that's a bizarre scenario.

It is bizarre but it happens.

We get people her convicted of similar "mastermind" type stuff though they never commited the actual murder.

The most infamous that comes to mind is Charles Manson. I'm not saying Amanda is like Charles Manson, but he is a good (well...bad ) example of someone convicted in this country of murder just for orchestrating the murders while never having committed a single one.

Perhaps they have different ideas of conspiracy to commit murder in Italy. But that is what my mind goes to when they say mastermind.

Other examples include murder for hire plots where the person is convicted for paying to have someone murdered whether the person is actually murdered or if the person got caught in a sting.

That could also explain the "light" sentence of 26 years. I'm not sure what Italy's laws are in regards to sentences and am unsure if that is standard for murder or if someone who actually commits the murder gets a longer sentence.

While a bizarre scenario--Amand is not the first nor unfortunately will she be the last person to be caught in such a bizarre chain of events.

If anyone who commits a murder ever has any type of help from conspiracy to murder weapon acquisition or whatever--I would hope that for the justice of the victim that any murderer would bring their helpers down with them.

So I would expect that if Amanda TRULY had her brain in on the murder, that the person convicted of the physical act would indeed rat her out as seems to be the case here.

Crap like that happens daily here I'm sure (often enough that they have 20/20 specials covering stings for folks conspiring to murder via pay for hire) that it isn't far fetched for similar crimes to happen overseas.

Just my thoughts--I might be way off base, but wanted to share my opinion on how I perceived what they mean by "mastermind".

 

[Uuaww]

In my opinion, none of us were there. The Italian court system is not a corrupt one and it is a stable country. They heard all the evidence, selected the jurors and made their decision.

 

[OceanAnnie]

Lisa Loves Pooh, Just wanted to be clear, I wasn't encouraging anyone to send money to the family. I was searching out the article about them seeking an appeal. That wasn't the one I had read first. I scanned it and saw that it spoke to the appeal, so I posted it. I did take out the link for their website.

I don't have an opinion about their website one way or the other. I'm sure they are hurting and believe her to be innocent. I don't know if she is innocent or not. But I understand their feelings.

 

[OceanAnnie]

It is bizarre but it happens.

We get people her convicted of similar "mastermind" type stuff though they never commited the actual murder.

The most infamous that comes to mind is Charles Manson. I'm not saying Amanda is like Charles Manson, but he is a good (well...bad ) example of someone convicted in this country of murder just for orchestrating the murders while never having committed a single one.

Perhaps they have different ideas of conspiracy to commit murder in Italy. But that is what my mind goes to when they say mastermind.

Other examples include murder for hire plots where the person is convicted for paying to have someone murdered whether the person is actually murdered or if the person got caught in a sting.

That could also explain the "light" sentence of 26 years. I'm not sure what Italy's laws are in regards to sentences and am unsure if that is standard for murder or if someone who actually commits the murder gets a longer sentence.

While a bizarre scenario--Amand is not the first nor unfortunately will she be the last person to be caught in such a bizarre chain of events.

If anyone who commits a murder ever has any type of help from conspiracy to murder weapon acquisition or whatever--I would hope that for the justice of the victim that any murderer would bring their helpers down with them.

So I would expect that if Amanda TRULY had her brain in on the murder, that the person convicted of the physical act would indeed rat her out as seems to be the case here.

Crap like that happens daily here I'm sure (often enough that they have 20/20 specials covering stings for folks conspiring to murder via pay for hire) that it isn't far fetched for similar crimes to happen overseas.

Just my thoughts--I might be way off base, but wanted to share my opinion on how I perceived what they mean by "mastermind".

I know you are right about that kind of stuff happening here everyday. I've seen cases on t.v. and read news accounts. There's a lot of crazy stuff out right here in the U.S.. The scenario still seems weird to me, but then the whole premise does too.

It's a sensational case for a number of reasons, one huge reason is the "supposed" (well convicted now) culprit is an American overseas.

 

[Shoshana]

I just wish english could be spoken in America. Whenever someone comes here we are supposed to learn their language so we don't offend the poor soul that we probably just gave health insurance, a home, job and an education to for free.

Language assimilation (meaning, the ability to speak fluent English) is nearly 100% by the first generation of children. Depending on the country of origin and the age of the immigrant, it can be incredibly difficult to learn English. Funny, I've never -- even after living in South Florida and on the East Coast -- had anyone infer or state that I should be speaking a language other than English.

 

[ogreenlee]

Crazy comes from everywhere. Not sure what promiscuity or wild-child antics have to do with any of this. I know a lot of folks, including myself, who are/were grade A wild-childs.

You'd have to be on drugs, not of the norm, to allow something like this to happen without any effect on your psyche. I'm thinking lithium or something crazy like that. Unless she is just crazy, which I think she is. There are plenty of sociopaths walking the streets, mentally unstable, who come off as competent human beings. I don't think sleeping around or partying should even be an issue.

 

[OceanAnnie]

Crazy comes from everywhere. Not sure what promiscuity or wild-child antics have to do with any of this. I know a lot of folks, including myself, who are/were grade A wild-childs.

You'd have to be on drugs, not of the norm, to allow something like this to happen without any effect on your psyche. I'm thinking lithium or something crazy like that. Unless she is just crazy, which I think she is. There are plenty of sociopaths walking the streets, mentally unstable, who come off as competent human beings. I don't think sleeping around or partying should even be an issue.

I think the partying gone awry, number of people involved, that it appeared to be a "sexual ambush/attack" supposedly "masterminded" by a woman, all contributed to a bizarre scenario. It all figures in to me and folds on itself as a strange case.

It didn't appear to be a laid back kind of party or that the victim was a willing participant in the "advances". I think the criminologists work backward from the crime scene and try to tie in a suspect's behaviors and quirks to the culminating event. Any one thing by itself wouldn't stand on it's own, but presented together the criminologists try to establish a pattern of behaviors that could implicate a suspect. Not saying it's 100% right, that's just how I understand it.

Just my .02.

 

[happygirl]

I will admit that I haven't really followed this case very closely. So I might have missed some stuff. It just seems like this girl did have a hand in the other girl death. She probably does deserve some sort of punishment.

What I don't understand is how come the US isn't doing more to get this girl home.

I remember when that canning sp? case came around all the outrage over that. IT seemed like the US worked non-stop to get that kid freed from that and to get him home.

 

[ogreenlee]

I will admit that I haven't really followed this case very closely. So I might have missed some stuff. It just seems like this girl did have a hand in the other girl death. She probably does deserve some sort of punishment.

What I don't understand is how come the US isn't doing more to get this girl home.

I remember when that canning sp? case came around all the outrage over that. IT seemed like the US worked non-stop to get that kid freed from that and to get him home.

It's not our country's responsibility. If an Italian committed a heinous act here in this country, wouldn't you want him tried and convicted in this country?

 

[N.Bailey]

Just saw on CNN Anderson Cooper 360 where a former prosecutor said that many defendants get convicted on very little evidence right here in the USA and there is little or no outrage. That the only reason there is this much outrage is because Knox is pretty and it is in a foreign court. That we should spend more time being outraged by what happens in the aforemention situations in this country.

Depending on which statistic you wish to believe, the vast majority of cases never make it to trial. It's commonly believed that this figure is less than 10%.

There are indeed a few cases where the DA/DDA picks over the life of the defendant, selectively choosing which parts of that past could he/she use to make a jury hate them. Once the jury hates the accused, facts really don't mean a whole lot after that point. When this happens, yes, I concur that we should be outraged, but thank the good Lord that it doesn't happen very often.

If that prosecutor was speaking of cases he's tried, shame on him if he prosecuted someone when he didn't think there was enough evidence to convict.

As for Amanda Knox, I don't know what to think. It's really hard to know where the truth lies, but I know this much, those jurors heard a lot more than I, so I cannot say they made the wrong decision. I know innocent people don't normally have a need to change their stories, but then again, if she was being sleep deprived and possibly even physically assaulted (and she has said this), I could see her saying anything just to get out of there. It reminds all too well of another high profile case, Kevin Fox.
http://truthinjustice.org/kevin-fox.htm

 

[N.Bailey]

I will admit that I haven't really followed this case very closely. So I might have missed some stuff. It just seems like this girl did have a hand in the other girl death. She probably does deserve some sort of punishment.

What I don't understand is how come the US isn't doing more to get this girl home.

I remember when that canning sp? case came around all the outrage over that. IT seemed like the US worked non-stop to get that kid freed from that and to get him home.

If she committed the crime here and fled to Italy, we have an extradition policy with Italy and they would ship her butt back here to stand trial (sometimes we have to say we will not be seeking death).

Since she committed the crime in Italy, she has to face the Italian courts. It's that simple.

 

[FireDancer]

I will admit that I haven't really followed this case very closely. So I might have missed some stuff. It just seems like this girl did have a hand in the other girl death. She probably does deserve some sort of punishment.

What I don't understand is how come the US isn't doing more to get this girl home.

I remember when that canning sp? case came around all the outrage over that. IT seemed like the US worked non-stop to get that kid freed from that and to get him home.

Michael Fay was found guilty or crimes in Singapore and sentenced to 6 lashes with a cane. I don't feel we should have stepped in there either. In the end they reduced it to 4 lashes. Singapore has strict laws and when you are there you have to abide by the laws of face their form of punishment. Fay never even asserted innocence in his crimes so he had no right to try and evade their punishment.

There is a difference between an American citizen getting a fair trial abroad and one being held as a political prisoner. Whether we like their system or not she received a trial and was found guilty within the bounds of that system.

I would also not want the Italian authorities stepping in and attempt to get an Italian national out of prison after he or she was found guilty of a crime by our legal system. If that were to happen we would be up in arms about them trying to ignore our justice system. It is hypocritical of us to do the same.

 

[aristocatz]

I am a big supporter of Amanda Knox and I strongly believe that she is innocent and a victim of circumstantial evidence and media corruption.

If you look at the evidence, there is not one thing that pins Amanda to being responsible for this crime. The DNA they found was minute and she was Meridith's roommate, so of course her DNA was going to be found in the house, bathroom, Meridith's room, etc...The knife that they found at Amanda's boyfriend's apartment did not match the stab wounds on Meridith's body.

The media refers to Amanda as a drug addict, promiscuous, etc...This all stemmed from her alibi, in which she stated she was at her boyfriend's house, smoked a joint, had sex, watched a movie, and went to sleep. having sex with your boyfriend certainly does not mean you are promiscuous. & to suggest that smoking marijuana leads you to murder someone is absolutely ludicrious! The media over there has been nonstop portraying Amanda as guilty. The jury is seeing and reading this. Right before their deliberation, the prosecution had the jury watch an animated movie that shows Amanda murdering Meridith and at the end they showed the actual gruesome photographs of the crime scene. With that fresh in their minds, the jury went to deliberate. That tactic would have NEVER been allowed in a U.S. court. They said on the news last night that Italian courts do not have their jury vote unanimously.

The man who did it has been arrested and convicted. This man has a past criminal record and was directly linked to her murder. When he was first arrested he said that he has never met Amanda. 6 months into his prison term, he says that she was involved.

My heart goes out to Amanda, her boyfriend, and their families. She was a teenagers who was involved in typical teenage activities, she embarked on an adventure to a different country, and found herself in the wrong place at the wrong time. Yes, I agree that her actions (or the description of her actions) were a little strange, but you cannot automatically say that quirky behavior=murderer. Amanda, her boyfriend, & their families are in my prayers & I hope that their appeal works out for them.

My heart also goes out to Meridith and to her family, but I do not believe that Amanda had anything to do with her murder.

 

[JerseyJanice]

I don't know what to make of the case either.

I tried to find out more about the trial of the man who was convicted of the murder. What connection, if any, did the police make between him and Amanda Knox? It doesn't seem like a likely scenario that she and her boyfriend got together with a strange man to accompany them to a group sex party.

The reports of her reactions to the incident are very weird. When I was a young adult, a young man who was one of our neighbors was killed in an accident. We were friendly when we were younger, but not at the time he was killed. It still hit me like a ton of bricks. I got my first migraine headache, and when I saw a doctor for it, he explained that the death of a peer is very hard on someone my age (19 at the time). Kids that age think they're immortal, and it's very tiring emotionally to realize that they are not.

On the news today, they talked about a surveillance video made of Ms. Knox and her boyfriend buying lingerie within a week of the murder. Apparently, they were very lovey-dovey in the store. I know that not everyone reacts to grief the same way, but I doubt believe I was feeling very amorous a week after our neighbor was killed. And when I was 19, I usually was, if you know what I mean. There are the reports of her doing cartwheels in the police station. She says now that it was some kind of yoga moves that helped her deal with stress. Her reaction to the sudden murder of a peer was not normal.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

It's not our country's responsibility. If an Italian committed a heinous act here in this country, wouldn't you want him tried and convicted in this country?

I agree with this.

Likely if there was some credibility to her innocence claim, they would have worked harder.

Like the country tried with the journailists in Korea.

The US cannot always be successful, but for a widely publicized case--I would bet that the US looked at it and opted to do nothing and I would expect that to be if there is anything credible that should be tried within that country.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

I am a big supporter of Amanda Knox and I strongly believe that she is innocent and a victim of circumstantial evidence and media corruption.

If you look at the evidence, there is not one thing that pins Amanda to being responsible for this crime. The DNA they found was minute and she was Meridith's roommate, so of course her DNA was going to be found in the house, bathroom, Meridith's room, etc...The knife that they found at Amanda's boyfriend's apartment did not match the stab wounds on Meridith's body.

The media refers to Amanda as a drug addict, promiscuous, etc...This all stemmed from her alibi, in which she stated she was at her boyfriend's house, smoked a joint, had sex, watched a movie, and went to sleep. having sex with your boyfriend certainly does not mean you are promiscuous. & to suggest that smoking marijuana leads you to murder someone is absolutely ludicrious! The media over there has been nonstop portraying Amanda as guilty. The jury is seeing and reading this. Right before their deliberation, the prosecution had the jury watch an animated movie that shows Amanda murdering Meridith and at the end they showed the actual gruesome photographs of the crime scene. With that fresh in their minds, the jury went to deliberate. That tactic would have NEVER been allowed in a U.S. court. They said on the news last night that Italian courts do not have their jury vote unanimously.

The man who did it has been arrested and convicted. This man has a past criminal record and was directly linked to her murder. When he was first arrested he said that he has never met Amanda. 6 months into his prison term, he says that she was involved.

My heart goes out to Amanda, her boyfriend, and their families. She was a teenagers who was involved in typical teenage activities, she embarked on an adventure to a different country, and found herself in the wrong place at the wrong time. Yes, I agree that her actions (or the description of her actions) were a little strange, but you cannot automatically say that quirky behavior=murderer. Amanda, her boyfriend, & their families are in my prayers & I hope that their appeal works out for them.

My heart also goes out to Meridith and to her family, but I do not believe that Amanda had anything to do with her murder.

While what you say makes sense--if she is convicted of masterminding the event, her DNA or blood wouldn't have to be anywhere.

If that were the litmus for conspiracy to commit murder, then folks who try to hire someone to commit murder would always go free just as long as they weren't there when the murder was committed.

I don't know what to believe, but I do believe it is naive to say that she had to have proven to be present at the murder to have had anything to do with it.

 

[BCDisneyFanatic]

I will admit that I haven't really followed this case very closely. So I might have missed some stuff. It just seems like this girl did have a hand in the other girl death. She probably does deserve some sort of punishment.

What I don't understand is how come the US isn't doing more to get this girl home.

I remember when that canning sp? case came around all the outrage over that. IT seemed like the US worked non-stop to get that kid freed from that and to get him home.

I can't speak for the U.S. foreign service, but the Canadian government will NOT intervene on your behalf if you are arrested/convicted of a crime on foreign soil. They do offer services (helping with translation, lists of lawyers, translators, contact with family members back in Canada, ensuring that you are properly treated, etc.), but will not offer legal advice. They will ask for clemency, though, in the case of death penalty sentences. They probably would also ask for clemency in the case of caning, since Canadian law does not support/endorse corporal punishment.

If convicted of a crime, there is an international programme whereby Canadians can apply to be transferred to a prison in Canada to carry out their sentence. Italy is listed as being one of the countries taking part in this programme. Since the US is also on the list, perhaps Ms. Knox will at least be able move closer to her family.

 

[dismom2]

I am a big supporter of Amanda Knox and I strongly believe that she is innocent and a victim of circumstantial evidence and media corruption.

If you look at the evidence, there is not one thing that pins Amanda to being responsible for this crime. The DNA they found was minute and she was Meridith's roommate, so of course her DNA was going to be found in the house, bathroom, Meridith's room, etc...The knife that they found at Amanda's boyfriend's apartment did not match the stab wounds on Meridith's body.

The media refers to Amanda as a drug addict, promiscuous, etc...This all stemmed from her alibi, in which she stated she was at her boyfriend's house, smoked a joint, had sex, watched a movie, and went to sleep. having sex with your boyfriend certainly does not mean you are promiscuous. & to suggest that smoking marijuana leads you to murder someone is absolutely ludicrious! The media over there has been nonstop portraying Amanda as guilty. The jury is seeing and reading this. Right before their deliberation, the prosecution had the jury watch an animated movie that shows Amanda murdering Meridith and at the end they showed the actual gruesome photographs of the crime scene. With that fresh in their minds, the jury went to deliberate. That tactic would have NEVER been allowed in a U.S. court. They said on the news last night that Italian courts do not have their jury vote unanimously.

The man who did it has been arrested and convicted. This man has a past criminal record and was directly linked to her murder. When he was first arrested he said that he has never met Amanda. 6 months into his prison term, he says that she was involved.

My heart goes out to Amanda, her boyfriend, and their families. She was a teenagers who was involved in typical teenage activities, she embarked on an adventure to a different country, and found herself in the wrong place at the wrong time. Yes, I agree that her actions (or the description of her actions) were a little strange, but you cannot automatically say that quirky behavior=murderer. Amanda, her boyfriend, & their families are in my prayers & I hope that their appeal works out for them.

My heart also goes out to Meridith and to her family, but I do not believe that Amanda had anything to do with her murder.

Just curious-- where are you getting all your facts about this case?
How much of this case do you know? How much of this case has been made public? Without all the facts, it's hard to come to difinitive conclusions. I am interrested in why you are so convinced? Can you point our your sources?

 

[Papa Deuce]

In my opinion, none of us were there. The Italian court system is not a corrupt one and it is a stable country. They heard all the evidence, selected the jurors and made their decision.

Pretty much my feelings.

 

[N.Bailey]

Just curious-- where are you getting all your facts about this case?
How much of this case do you know? How much of this case has been made public? Without all the facts, it's hard to come to difinitive conclusions. I am interrested in why you are so convinced? Can you point our your sources?

FAR from being anything close to an objective voice of reason in this case (though I like her), Anne Bremner has stated repeatedly much of what aristocatz said on any program that would give her the plug.

Since she's an attorney representing the friends of Amanda Knox (not sure what that even means), she does hold somewhat of a bias. Of course, that's what she's paid the big bucks to do.

The Italian justice system isn't even close to being on par with the American system (though I may hold a bias on that opinion too). I just found it really odd that 1, the trial took so long (Even OJ and the Manson family didn't take nearly that amount of time), and #2, they sentenced them immediately after reading the verdict (this is not unheard of here at home, but it's not the way it always plays out either). More importantly than that however, I was literally blown away that what we'd term civil damages was even declared after the guilty verdict was read.

From what I understand, another HUGE difference between the Italian justice system and the American system is the threshold in Italy isn't nearly as stringent for the initial trial, but becomes more so during the appellant process. In other words, we demand the highest of scrutiny during the initial trial, then the appeals rules more in favor of maybe new evidence coming to light, and/or if the defendant received a fair trial (and this could be for almost any dumb reason - one conviction was overturned because the family members wore a button into the courtroom that had the victim's picture on it - their son in this case). In Italy, it seems like the standard isn't as high as it is at home, but as the appeals go forward, the threshold of guilt increases.