Am I the only one?

[Chuck S]

...
and to correct a few previous comments it was not always allowed for members to rent points,when this started ressies had to be made for you so DVC did not know..and the only way for non members to stay at a DVC resort was on a cash basis which was 2% of the total inventory which had to be available for the "general public"..so much for not thinking this was exclusive...renting points to nonmembers absoultley affects the availablity for members reguardless of the 11mth home resort rule..if 3 members all having the capability of each staying 1 week, all rent to the same person then 3 consecutive weeks are taken off the table as oppose to those 3 indivduals staying at different times. A resort sells out for a reason it is to control availability and flow . Renting points to non members who should be using the 2% cash inventory instead of points absolutley has a mushroom affect for members .

My first DVC purchase paperwork was signed May 9, 1992, and my POS states that renting is allowed, but that we must inform Member Services if it is a rental And it also contains the same clause about commercial purposes as WebmasterDoc's paperwork. And considering that OKW, then known as "The Disney Vacation Club Resort", opened for use in October of 1991, that would have been a very quick revision of the POS and policy, if rental was ever forbidden.

 

[Dean]

I hope your wife is doing well with your bedside support!

I don't know if this is the section you were thinking of, but from the May, 1993 Exhibit "I" to Declaration of Condominium, Section IV. RENTALS, part 4.1 Club Member Rentals
"A Club Member may make a reservation to use the accommodations of the Condominium or other DVC Resorts, if any, himself, make their use available to family or friends or guests, or rent them solely through his own efforts. DVD's approval of a rental by a Club Member is not required after a reservation has been made in the renter's own name, and Club Members are permitted to rent their occupancy rights on terms and conditions that they may establish. No rental assistance is being offered by DVD or DVC or any affiliate or subsidiary of DVD and DVC. All renters must comply with the rules and regulations affecting occupancy, and the renting Club Member will be responsible for the acts or omissions of his renters or any other person pr persons permitted by the Club Member to use the accommodation. Neither DVD nor DVC in any way represent or promote that a particular DVC Resort accommodation can be rented, or if it is rented, that any particular rental rate can be obtained for such rental."

I realize that this specific language may have been altered in whole or in part by DVD since 1993 but I believe the intent (and probably the language itself) still remains in DVC sales documents at this time.

That's c/w my recollection, I seem to recall similar wording is found in several locations.

 

[Sammie]

i sincerely hope the "bottom feeding" reference was done in an ignorant error of the english language on your part and not a mud slinging tactic. As is usual with a lot of post here, misunderstanding ones post can lead to some nasty attitudes. I have no problem with memebers renting to other members family or friends, but i also as with the orignal poster do take issue with members who have purchased with the sole purpose of making a profit here.
and to correct a few previous comments it was not always allowed for members to rent points,when this started ressies had to be made for you so DVC did not know..and the only way for non members to stay at a DVC resort was on a cash basis which was 2% of the total inventory which had to be available for the "general public"..so much for not thinking this was exclusive...renting points to nonmembers absoultley affects the availablity for members reguardless of the 11mth home resort rule..if 3 members all having the capability of each staying 1 week, all rent to the same person then 3 consecutive weeks are taken off the table as oppose to those 3 indivduals staying at different times. A resort sells out for a reason it is to control availability and flow . Renting points to non members who should be using the 2% cash inventory instead of points absolutley has a mushroom affect for members .

There would be absolutely no way to know that though. Those 3 members could just as easily book the exact same 3 weeks for themselves. Those weeks would still not be available.

 

[Dean]

i sincerely hope the "bottom feeding" reference was done in an ignorant error of the english language on your part and not a mud slinging tactic. As is usual with a lot of post here, misunderstanding ones post can lead to some nasty attitudes. I have no problem with memebers renting to other members family or friends, but i also as with the orignal poster do take issue with members who have purchased with the sole purpose of making a profit here.
and to correct a few previous comments it was not always allowed for members to rent points,when this started ressies had to be made for you so DVC did not know..and the only way for non members to stay at a DVC resort was on a cash basis which was 2% of the total inventory which had to be available for the "general public"..so much for not thinking this was exclusive...renting points to nonmembers absoultley affects the availablity for members reguardless of the 11mth home resort rule..if 3 members all having the capability of each staying 1 week, all rent to the same person then 3 consecutive weeks are taken off the table as oppose to those 3 indivduals staying at different times. A resort sells out for a reason it is to control availability and flow . Renting points to non members who should be using the 2% cash inventory instead of points absolutley has a mushroom affect for members .

To my knowledge, there was never an exclusion on renting. I've been a member since 1994 and the documents I got were from 92 or 93. You could be thinking about the technicality that points are simply a method of reserving so one can never truly rent the points but you can still rent. I wonder if someone just told you that sometime or you saw it posted somewhere and assumed it was true. Even MS has been know to give out that info incorrectly at times. Besides the commercial renting issue there are a couple of other components. Get a written contract and let DVC know it's a rental. As noted, the 2-4% is a holdback, mostly used for maint issues and to my knowledge, DVD has never released the % they held back at each resort. Done appropriately, 2% should cover it for maint unless they try to do a major rehab in a short period of time. Most timeshare hold 1/2 to one week a year per unit for this purpose. From my standpoint it doesn't matter the demand of the week or how many weeks are taken when since I look at it as if the owner themselves were using it when it's a rental or an RCI exchange. The only situation I'd be opposed to would be if someone found a way to get reservations before they were available to the membership. About the only ways that could happen would be to hack the system or have an inside contact willing to work under the table.

We've seen this issue come through before. My view is basically everyone who starts talking about limiting rentals but it's "OK to rent sometimes to friends and family but only for maint fees" really simply wants to do away with it. The truth is that who you rent to or how much has no effect on this issue. Anytime you start trying to micromanage it, the opportunities for inconsistency, dishonesty and interpretation abound. Plus it's not feasible anyway. I've probably rented an average of 2 rentals per year of ownership (almost 20 yrs) but it's up and down. Some of these have become very good internet friends and a number have either bought or rented multiple times. If some want to call that commercial, that's up to them, but if I were doing it for the money it means I'm an idiot because I could make a lot more money with less time, risk and effort just working an hour extra here and there. Those others who rent sometimes can confirm, the most difficult single group to rent to are other owners. Most people who I've encountered who rent or inquire about it are very nice (member or otherwise) and most are very grateful for a fair deal done correctly. Renting to family and friends can be a nightmare for some. Have you seen the horror stories here about family/friends type of trips, no thanks. I'm grateful my family doesn't have that type of drama.

 

[Disbroads]

This subject has come up over the years and I've discussed it with several Marriott resort GM's including one I know fairly well and independent of his position. None indicated they felt it mattered how the group arrived at having the villa but rather the makeup of the group. Basically the only group they felt they could single out was the spring break type.

.

Dude! I find that insensitive and offensive. I've met a lot of nice spring breakers in my 12 years of undergraduate work. I even brought a book to New Orleans this Mardi Gras and may do the same next month in Cancun.

Okay, on a more serious note... The inventory available for points usage is driven by points sold, so there's never more demand than supply in a year.
The trouble is, The demand varies by time of year and desirability of resorts.
Someone who wants Boardwalk near the holidays is much more likely to be disappointed than someone who wants Saratoga Springs in September.

Right now it's about 80 and low humidity in Orlando, and the area isn't very busy. Nothing like July, 95 and very humid. School vacations drive a lot of demand fluctuations.

BTW, Dean. Not directed at you. Just couldn't resist the spring breaker joke.

 

[DSLRuser]

I also think it is presumptuous to assume that greater wear and tear comes from renters and/or non-owners.

I do not. I have stayed at my time share type places. True owners take pride in ownership and try and take care of things. renters just treat it as another hotel room.

 

[Chuck S]

I do not. I have stayed at my time share type places. True owners take pride in ownership and try and take care of things. renters just treat it as another hotel room.

Then please explain these incidents of "True Owners" I have witnessed over my years of ownership.

Husband screaming at the front desk "We paid a LOT of money, and we want to stay in room xxxx, we requested it, it should be available!'

I heard a thumping noise from the one bedroom next door when I stayed in a studio. I went out on my balcony and saw an older lady and a child jumping on the couch, saying "Grandma bought this house at Disney so we could have fun!"

An owner telling the kids to go ahead and pack the towels, dues will cover the cost.

The truth is, there are good owners and bad owners, just as there are good renters and bad renters. Neither group should hold themselves up as shining examples and point fingers.

 

[Sammie]

I do not. I have stayed at my time share type places. True owners take pride in ownership and try and take care of things. renters just treat it as another hotel room.

Based on reports from friends that work at the DVC resorts, members do as much damage as others.

Honestly it makes no difference whether a person owns, rents, is given a stay as a gift, or pays cash, those that are going to trash a place will do so regardless.

 

[RobDoc]

... The inventory available for points usage is driven by points sold, so there's never more demand than supply in a year. ..
.

Sure, there is. With banking/borrowing there is often more demand than supply. Not every year of course, but it does happen and will happen more frequently as we get closer to 2042 - especially those last few years.

 

[Dean]

Dude! I find that insensitive and offensive. I've met a lot of nice spring breakers in my 12 years of undergraduate work. I even brought a book to New Orleans this Mardi Gras and may do the same next month in Cancun.

Okay, on a more serious note... The inventory available for points usage is driven by points sold, so there's never more demand than supply in a year.
The trouble is, The demand varies by time of year and desirability of resorts.
Someone who wants Boardwalk near the holidays is much more likely to be disappointed than someone who wants Saratoga Springs in September.

Right now it's about 80 and low humidity in Orlando, and the area isn't very busy. Nothing like July, 95 and very humid. School vacations drive a lot of demand fluctuations.

BTW, Dean. Not directed at you. Just couldn't resist the spring breaker joke.

I think/hope you're kidding. Just relaying what I've gathered from people who have much more knowledge or experience than I in that situation. Truthfully when I've asked, they all had to think about it. None had a ready answer like they thought any one group was a real problem. Once they did, they all came back with some variation of this theme. They specifically said they didn't see a discernible difference based on age or kids present otherwise.

I do not. I have stayed at my time share type places. True owners take pride in ownership and try and take care of things. renters just treat it as another hotel room.

For fixed unit timeshares I might buy that but not for anything else. I think most owners have some sort of attachment to their resort and most people will go out of their way to take care of things. The question in this situation is whether one group tends to be significantly different than another. I have done a couple of rentals a year on average for the last 19 years or so and dealt with many more contemplating it. I also have a fairly extensive history with other timeshares over the past 15 years or so. The renters are far more appreciative and generally easier to deal with than owners. Many come across that they are genuinely appreciative for the opportunity to stay at DVC. It's my opinion that generally speaking, those who take care of things do with DVC and those that don't live up to their history as well. Basically it makes no difference. I know some want to use the argument that the owners take better care comparing it to rental cars, the reality is that the owners are essentially in a rental car as well for floating type resorts so that example does not hold water for DVC.

 

[albanese1959]

If you can provide documentation to support your bolded quoted comment above , please do so. When we purchased in 1993, the documents read as I posted above where renting is expressly allowed and only a "pattern of rental activity by a Cotenant that the association , in its reasonable discretion, could conclude constitutes a commercial ernterprise or practice" was used to define "Commercial Purpose". That loose definition has been updated in recent years by Disney to include:

">A Member who maintains a website offering rental of Vacation Points
>A Member who makes 20 or more reservations in any 12 month period in the name of persons not on their membership " - as posted above by Sammie.

There is not now and never has been 2% allotted for cash reservations to the general public. DVC has always maintained between 2-4% of the available points at each resort for its own use - usually to replace member inventory taken out-of-service for maintenance issues but also to use as it desires. DVD also provides for cash reservations at resorts in active sales where all inventory has yet to be declared to the DVC membership.

The bulk of cash reservations available to non-members comes from points used by DVC members for non-DVC options. Again, feel free to provide supporting documentation for your statements to the contrary. Those points are converted into reservations made available thru DRC for cash reservation to pay for the non-DVC options. In addition, any DVC inventory unreserved at 60 days is also used for cash reservations and those receipts are used to defray members fees at each resort.

Please provide any documentation you have to support your statements above.

simply put..you are mis informed

 

[albanese1959]

In the guidebook, under Renting Vacation Points Restrictions, it states

Use of your Membership for commercial purposes is expressly prohibited. Commercial purpose includes a pattern of rental activity or other occupancy by a Member that the Board of Condominium Association in its reasonable discretion, could conclude constitutes a commercial enterprise or practice.

Examples of commercial renting include but are not limited to:

>A Member who maintains a website offering rental of Vacation Points
>A Member who makes 20 or more reservations in any 12 month period in the name of persons not on their membership

so then what would you consider that "Dave" guy who advertises all over these boards is that a business or not..and although i can not be positive i think the original poster was referring to people using a third party to rent their points, i too have had an occasion for one reason or another to rent some xtra pts for a quick get away i see nothing wrong with members renting to friends and family and other members but i stand firm on my opinion of a member using a third party

 

[Chuck S]

simply put..you are mis informed

But how can we be misinformed if we are quoting directly from our legal paperwork? As Doc asked, please show evidence that renting was ever forbidden, and when. As I said, I purchased in May of 1992, and was never forbidden to do so by any paperwork. I do not think Disney can legally restrict an owners use of a rental broker any more than they can restrict our use of a sales broker.

Under your definition, even our Rent/Trade Board would be considered forbidden. But it is the individual owners, not the DIS, that are renting the points. Just as it is with David's. Believe me, if Disney had a problem with it, they would have notified the webmasters by now, as it has been here for many years, the owner is based in Florida...and is not difficult to locate.

 

[Dean]

simply put..you are mis informed

Wow, I'll take that bet. I believe I can honestly say that Doc Chuck and myself are 3 of the most informed non DVC management when it comes to the legal documents, fortunately for us, there are others here now as well. I see nothing that's not accurate from what Doc posted. DVD does reserve the right to rent but to my knowledge, they've never released how much they do. We'd all love to see documentation otherwise.

 

[Lynne M]

so then what would you consider that "Dave" guy who advertises all over these boards is that a business or not..and although i can not be positive i think the original poster was referring to people using a third party to rent their points, i too have had an occasion for one reason or another to rent some xtra pts for a quick get away i see nothing wrong with members renting to friends and family and other members but i stand firm on my opinion of a member using a third party

All Dave does is put members who wish to rent their points in contact with people who want a reservation. Yes, it's a business, but he's just acting as a 'finder'. He doesn't rent existing reservations, so there are no spec reservation rentals coming from that business.

 

[jekjones1558]

simply put..you are mis informed

Do I smell a troll? Anyone with credibility would not make a statement like this.

 

[Sammie]

so then what would you consider that "Dave" guy who advertises all over these boards is that a business or not..and although i can not be positive i think the original poster was referring to people using a third party to rent their points, i too have had an occasion for one reason or another to rent some xtra pts for a quick get away i see nothing wrong with members renting to friends and family and other members but i stand firm on my opinion of a member using a third party

Dave's service is a broker for multiple members. They are not his personal points.

A commercial renter would be an individual that has enough points to rent more than 20 bookings per year to 20 different individuals.

 

[DougEMG]

So has Disney ever classified an owner as a 'commercial renter' and if so did they actually take any actions against them?

 

[Chuck S]

So has Disney ever classified an owner as a 'commercial renter' and if so did they actually take any actions against them?

Rumors would suggest that someone has had some action taken, but nothing that can be verified or confirmed that I know of.

 

[Dean]

So has Disney ever classified an owner as a 'commercial renter' and if so did they actually take any actions against them?

I know they sent out letters and I know that one owner with lots of points specifically to rent out has sold off many points and essentially disappeared. Rumors were there was action on DVC's side but as Chuck noted, I'm not aware of more. This was also before David's and TSS were actively involved in brokering rentals. Since that initial action, which seemed to be directed at the one or 2 people anyway, I have heard nothing else. I'm guessing they got their desired effect and we won't hear much else about it going forward unless a major outlier surfaces again.