Am I the only one?

[ScottOKW2K]

Wasn't sure where to post this or if this will get me banned from this site for life...but I have to speak out. I have been a DVC member since 1992 and I have seen many changes; mostly instituted by Disney themselves and so I had to go with the flow or find an alternative vacation spot(Never!) That being said I can't keep quiet any longer...Am I the only one who feels that some DVC owners/members have turned their ownership's into a small business venture?

No, but so what? DVC has more than 300,000 members. ANY timeshare that large will likely have a few owners who rent their membership interest, if the rules of the timeshare allow.

Am I wrong in assuming that you no longer NEED to be a member to stay at DVC resorts on a point basis?????

Anyone staying on a points basis is either a member or someone authorized by a member. DVD has their own inventory that they can make available on a cash basis to members and non-members.

No wonder I have such a difficult time getting reservations at my home resort...someone (who didn't have to wait, excited or anxiously to be approved to participate in the "club" and then take out a small mortgage to join or who continues to pay increasing monthly maintenance fees to keep up with the wear and tear from non members who don't care to treat this as a home away from home) always seems to beat me to the ressie.

Another member making a reservation on points has no more nor any less difficulty booking a DVC reservation than you do. We all have the 11 month booking window at our home resort, and 7 months at other DVC resorts. If you are booking a room category with limited availability at a high demand time of year you may be out of luck.

What's so special about being a member anymore? I could have saved myself and my family thousands of dollars by just contacting someone (on this site!) anytime I wanted to go on vacation. It's shameful and it makes me very sad

If you are unhappy with your membership - sell. You have been a member for over 20 years and maybe your vacation habits have changed. My family and I have been members since 2000 and we still feel that we get value out of our membership. We don't always get the resort or room type we may desire but we have enjoyed each and every stay we have experienced.

 

[a742246]

I think your post brings up an important point. I think many view DVC as belonging to a club and they happen to own at a specific resort(s) while technically and realistically we own a specific resort(s) and have an internal exchange option to other resorts. One who takes the former view is going to feel they should be ahead of renters in general, those who take the latter (and more accurate) view are going to feel that an owner at a given resort who rents out the time should come FAR ahead of someone who owns at a different DVC resort and wants to exchange in.

As far as those who don't realize they have to compete, shame on them for not understanding the nature of what they own. The other issue along those lines that some bring up at times is that they can plan ahead for some reason. My view is that personal situations have absolutely NO bearing on the issue.

I see people throwing around the terms professional and commercial. My guess is that most people who do so really would prefer to ban renting in general and that their definition is anyone who makes a profit on a given rental or anyone who books a time they want. DVC's current definition centers around 20 reservations a year just to start looking at the issue. The reality is that the vast majority of rentals are done by those who rent a week or 2 per year or less, usually less on average.

Dean, I value your opinion, so much so, that in the past you mentioned about how you had a problem with people booking peak reservations with the idea of selling that reservation on the internet. I remembered that, and that is why I included that in my post.

 

[Dean]

Dean, I value your opinion, so much so, that in the past you mentioned about how you had a problem with people booking peak reservations with the idea of selling that reservation on the internet. I remembered that, and that is why I included that in my post.

I don't think that's a fair representation of what I've said but if there's a post that says that, it's certainly not my position. What I've said a couple of times several years ago (I believe it was worded this way) is that I personally had chosen not to do that but I also added that if that was needed to get a fair return, I would not hesitate to schedule first and then rent out. Since I've posted that reservations have become more difficult to get so I have done it both ways at times. SSR especially has caused a lot of changes in availability and booking options. Not complaining, just saying that's the way it is.

 

[rock_doctor]

always seems to beat me to the ressie.

If you truly are unable to get a reservation at your home resort at the 11 mo window then you may be one that needs to read up on the "art of walking a reservation"... That is likely how they are blocking you out. And i do know how you feel. The one and only time i tried to get a standard view studio for Christmas. I called 9am on the morning of the 11mo window (this was before you could make the reservations online) and there were no rooms for Christmas...and i was talking to the CM at exactly 9am on the 11mo window. Other guests walking their reservation is how i got blocked out... You may need to play the game. I just go for a better view now and don't worry about it.

 

[DebbieB]

I've been a member since 1999 and have never missed a reservation 7 months or more. I've made reservations at all the WDW DVC resorts except SSR and also got VGC 3 times at 7 months. Only waitlisted once and that was at VGC for an extra night last September about 3 months out and that did not come through. One time I wanted a night in mid October at any WDW resort about 3 weeks out and didn't get that. But other than that, I'm 100% including a night at BCV about 1 week out.

 

[lodge]

Most of the OP's prior posts are on the rent/trade board. It appears that in years past she was able to rent points, rent confirmed reservations or transfer points into her account for bargain prices. The bargains are few and far between these days and getting points at even $11 isn't that easy. The great deal that renters get on DVC accommodations is becoming more widely known, IMHO. I suspect that it is frustrating to the OP to be competing in a tougher market than has been the case in the past.

I was thinking this same thing. There was a post, regarding transferring a DCL reservation to a TA, that said "this is the rule, no grandfathering, no options"... turns out, as stated by herself, she is a TA, and it seems she was trying to dissuade people from attempting to find another TA that would accommodate their needs, because she couldn't (or wouldn't).

Once other DISers found out the rule wasn't steadfast, but would be accommodated by another TA, no other postings came from the TA posting under a "pen-name".

One's motivation isn't always as it appears.

 

[OrangeCountyCommuter]

The people to complain to are at Disney. I have complained that IMHO the "brokers" are a violation of the agreement we have with Disney regarding commercial renting

DVC has let the renting get out of control which amazes me as it is the Disney bottom line that suffers ....

 

[Chuck S]

The people to complain to are at Disney. I have complained that IMHO the "brokers" are a violation of the agreement we have with Disney regarding commercial renting

DVC has let the renting get out of control which amazes me as it is the Disney bottom line that suffers ....

I have to disagree that brokers are a violation of any agreement. While I have not ever rented out my points, we have the legal right to rent out our DVC points. I don't see anything in the agreement that says we, as individual members, can not engage the services of a broker to match us up with renters. How we find any renter is really irrelevant, it is still the owner making the reservation and renting the points reservation. I don't have any qualms with owners that use a brokerage service to rent their points.

An owner could even book 7 or 8 grand villas for the Christmas holidays right at the 11 month window, if they had enough points, simply on the speculation of renting them. I don't personally like the practice of booking on speculation, and I'm happy we don't allow existing reservations more than 30 days out on the DIS Rent/Trade board...but there is nothing in the paperwork to prevent it.

 

[Sandisw]

I have to disagree that brokers are a violation of any agreement. While I have not ever rented out my points, we have the legal right to rent out our DVC points. I don't see anything in the agreement that says we, as individual members, can not engage the services of a broker to match us up with renters. How we find any renter is really irrelevant, it is still the owner making the reservation and renting the points reservation. I don't have any qualms with owners that use a brokerage service to rent their points.

An owner could even book 7 or 8 grand villas for the Christmas holidays right at the 11 month window, if they had enough points, simply on the speculation of renting them. I don't personally like the practice of booking on speculation, and I'm happy we don't allow existing reservations more than 30 days out on the DIS Rent/Trade board...but there is nothing in the paperwork to prevent it.

Have to agree...

 

[lilpooh108]

Most of the OP's prior posts are on the rent/trade board. It appears that in years past she was able to rent points, rent confirmed reservations or transfer points into her account for bargain prices. The bargains are few and far between these days and getting points at even $11 isn't that easy. The great deal that renters get on DVC accommodations is becoming more widely known, IMHO. I suspect that it is frustrating to the OP to be competing in a tougher market than has been the case in the past.

I agree w/this. It seems like she's frustrated that she used to be able to rent at $8/pt, whereas people are now charging more so maybe that's where she feels like it's a business.

Reality is, dues have gone and up and the rental value have been slowly reflecting that.

I agree that some reservations are hard to get, but if you're flexible you always have a choice. The inability to secure a reservation during peak times is about as frustrating as long lines during Christmas time---i.e., it is what it is.

 

[Dean]

I have to disagree that brokers are a violation of any agreement. While I have not ever rented out my points, we have the legal right to rent out our DVC points. I don't see anything in the agreement that says we, as individual members, can not engage the services of a broker to match us up with renters. How we find any renter is really irrelevant, it is still the owner making the reservation and renting the points reservation. I don't have any qualms with owners that use a brokerage service to rent their points.

An owner could even book 7 or 8 grand villas for the Christmas holidays right at the 11 month window, if they had enough points, simply on the speculation of renting them. I don't personally like the practice of booking on speculation, and I'm happy we don't allow existing reservations more than 30 days out on the DIS Rent/Trade board...but there is nothing in the paperwork to prevent it.

While I don't have problems with the situation personally, these are clearly businesses under anyone's definition no matter how lax. Technically it likely comes down to whether they are also members or not. It would be the business related entity that would be affected, not the member who used them assuming they didn't trigger the current definition independently. However, I think it will be very difficult to enforce this issue at all while this practice is allowed. I'd think a good lawyer could have a field day with the situation. And I do think this is completely different than an advertising option like redweeks, ebay, DIS, TUG, Craigslist, etc.

 

[RobDoc]

The people to complain to are at Disney. I have complained that IMHO the "brokers" are a violation of the agreement we have with Disney regarding commercial renting

DVC has let the renting get out of control which amazes me as it is the Disney bottom line that suffers ....

"Commercial renting" is not a term that is used in our DVC documents. The only reference to "commercial" that I am aware of is "Commercial Purpose". It is found in the Exhibit "F" to the Declaration - Condominium rules and regulations uner 1. - Personal Use.

Personal Use declares that each of the Vacation Homes must only be used as vacation accommodations "by the Owners or Cotenants, their lessees, guests, exchangers and invitees and for recreational uses by corporations and other entities owning Ownership Interests in a Unit .Use of Vacation Homes and recreational facilities for commercial purposes or any purposes other than the personal use described herein is expressly prohibited. "Commerical Purpose" shall include a pattern of rental activity by a Cotenant that the association , in its reasonable discretion, could conclude constitutes a commercial ernterprise or practice."

As I read that section, my understanding is that it includes only individuals and/or corporations (and other entities) that own Ownership Interests in a Unit. My understanding is that individual owners (corporations and other entities) that exceed some ill-defined limit could be subject to the "Commercial Purpose" clause, but that anyone acting as a broker would not be under the same scrutiny since they are still not the ones actually making reservations - individual members are the ones making the reservation.

I view rental brokers much as I do resale brokers - who are merely filling a need for those wishing to sell - or in this case, wishing to rent.

"Commercial Purpose" is clearly intended to prohibit using a DVC villa to operate a business (hair salon, store, etc.) and goes on to also add a very loose description regarding a "pattern of rental acivity" beyond some undefined limit.

Regardless, "Commercial Renting" is not a term used by DVD/DVC in my DVC documents although it is commonly/mistakenly quoted and used on internet forums.

 

[Dean]

"Commercial renting" is not a term that is used in our DVC documents. The only reference to "commercial" that I am aware of is "Commercial Purpose". It is found in the Exhibit "F" to the Declaration - Condominium rules and regulations uner 1. - Personal Use.

Personal Use declares that each of the Vacation Homes must only be used as vacation accommodations "by the Owners or Cotenants, their lessees, guests, exchangers and invitees and for recreational uses by corporations and other entities owning Ownership Interests in a Unit .Use of Vacation Homes and recreational facilities for commercial purposes or any purposes other than the personal use described herein is expressly prohibited. "Commerical Purpose" shall include a pattern of rental activity by a Cotenant that the association , in its reasonable discretion, could conclude constitutes a commercial ernterprise or practice."

As I read that section, my understanding is that it includes only individuals and/or corporations (and other entities) that own Ownership Interests in a Unit. My understanding is that individual owners (corporations and other entities) that exceed some ill-defined limit could be subject to the "Commercial Purpose" clause, but that anyone acting as a broker would not be under the same scrutiny since they are still not the ones actually making reservations - individual members are the ones making the reservation.

I view rental brokers much as I do resale brokers - who are merely filling a need for those wishing to sell - or in this case, wishing to rent.

"Commercial Purpose" is clearly intended to prohibit using a DVC villa to operate a business (hair salon, store, etc.) and goes on to also add a very loose description regarding a "pattern of rental acivity" beyond some undefined limit.

Regardless, "Commercial Renting" is not a term used by DVD/DVC in my DVC documents although it is commonly/mistakenly quoted and used on internet forums.

I agree that this portion clearly refers to running a business from the property. I'll have to review when I can (sitting bedside at the Hosp with my spouse) but I'm pretty sure the term Commercial is used in the rental context in the POS. I don't want to try to quote from memory otherwise.


General response to this thread added: The other aspect that some point to in this type of discussion is the wording that suggests that DVC should be purchased for personal use and not for profit. Some mistakenly take this as a limit on renting where it simply is a caution that if you approach it this way, you would likely be losing money. It's actually wording required by the state and related to the historical practice of timeshares selling with the hook of future rental and resale profit and not a preclusion.

 

[Sammie]

In the guidebook, under Renting Vacation Points Restrictions, it states

Use of your Membership for commercial purposes is expressly prohibited. Commercial purpose includes a pattern of rental activity or other occupancy by a Member that the Board of Condominium Association in its reasonable discretion, could conclude constitutes a commercial enterprise or practice.

Examples of commercial renting include but are not limited to:

>A Member who maintains a website offering rental of Vacation Points
>A Member who makes 20 or more reservations in any 12 month period in the name of persons not on their membership

 

[albanese1959]

Talk about !! More than half the OP's post history has been bottom-feeding off the rent/trade board!

i sincerely hope the "bottom feeding" reference was done in an ignorant error of the english language on your part and not a mud slinging tactic. As is usual with a lot of post here, misunderstanding ones post can lead to some nasty attitudes. I have no problem with memebers renting to other members family or friends, but i also as with the orignal poster do take issue with members who have purchased with the sole purpose of making a profit here.
and to correct a few previous comments it was not always allowed for members to rent points,when this started ressies had to be made for you so DVC did not know..and the only way for non members to stay at a DVC resort was on a cash basis which was 2% of the total inventory which had to be available for the "general public"..so much for not thinking this was exclusive...renting points to nonmembers absoultley affects the availablity for members reguardless of the 11mth home resort rule..if 3 members all having the capability of each staying 1 week, all rent to the same person then 3 consecutive weeks are taken off the table as oppose to those 3 indivduals staying at different times. A resort sells out for a reason it is to control availability and flow . Renting points to non members who should be using the 2% cash inventory instead of points absolutley has a mushroom affect for members .

 

[Deb & Bill]

i sincerely hope the "bottom feeding" reference was done in an ignorant error of the english language on your part and not a mud slinging tactic. As is usual with a lot of post here, misunderstanding ones post can lead to some nasty attitudes. I have no problem with memebers renting to other members family or friends, but i also as with the orignal poster do take issue with members who have purchased with the sole purpose of making a profit here.
and to correct a few previous comments it was not always allowed for members to rent points,when this started ressies had to be made for you so DVC did not know..and the only way for non members to stay at a DVC resort was on a cash basis which was 2% of the total inventory which had to be available for the "general public"..so much for not thinking this was exclusive...renting points to nonmembers absoultley affects the availablity for members reguardless of the 11mth home resort rule..if 3 members all having the capability of each staying 1 week, all rent to the same person then 3 consecutive weeks are taken off the table as oppose to those 3 indivduals staying at different times. A resort sells out for a reason it is to control availability and flow . Renting points to non members who should be using the 2% cash inventory instead of points absolutley has a mushroom affect for members .

The inventory available to members is fairly constant whether some members are renting out reservations or not. Everyone is equal at 11 months out at a home resort. Now there is just more competition for 7 months and less. Everyone wants to go when it is popular to go.

I bought into DVC in 1997 at OKW and my Public Offering Statement indicates that selling a reservation to a non-member was totally legal. And that POS also indicates that members should notify MS if they reserve using their points for a non-member who compensates them.

You just didn't hear that much about "renting points" back then because there were only two DVC resorts at WDW. Kind of like purchasing resale wasn't that popular because there wasn't much difference between direct and resale.

 

[albanese1959]

Renting has no impact on overall resort availability, and since the OP specifically mentions the DIS Rent/Trade board, I'd remind the OP that the DIS does do it's part to preserve room availability for members. We do not allow pre-book, speculative reservations to be offered on the DIS unless 1) it is 30 days or less from check-in -or- 2) you have purchased the more expensive ($200) Premium level Rent/Trade board membership. And while there have been a few Premium memberships posting, the vast majority of posts are either point offers competing in real time with for dates just like anyone else, or those people having to rent their reservation at 30 days or less rather than see their points go into holding statue. And even those owners have to meet posting requirements or purchase a Gold Level plan.

I.

just a question where does that 200$ go?

 

[RobDoc]

...

and to correct a few previous comments it was not always allowed for members to rent points,when this started ressies had to be made for you so DVC did not know..and the only way for non members to stay at a DVC resort was on a cash basis which was 2% of the total inventory which had to be available for the "general public"..so much for not thinking this was exclusive...renting points to nonmembers absoultley affects the availablity for members reguardless of the 11mth home resort rule..if 3 members all having the capability of each staying 1 week, all rent to the same person then 3 consecutive weeks are taken off the table as oppose to those 3 indivduals staying at different times. A resort sells out for a reason it is to control availability and flow . Renting points to non members who should be using the 2% cash inventory instead of points absolutley has a mushroom affect for members .

If you can provide documentation to support your bolded quoted comment above , please do so. When we purchased in 1993, the documents read as I posted above where renting is expressly allowed and only a "pattern of rental activity by a Cotenant that the association , in its reasonable discretion, could conclude constitutes a commercial ernterprise or practice" was used to define "Commercial Purpose". That loose definition has been updated in recent years by Disney to include:

">A Member who maintains a website offering rental of Vacation Points
>A Member who makes 20 or more reservations in any 12 month period in the name of persons not on their membership " - as posted above by Sammie.

There is not now and never has been 2% allotted for cash reservations to the general public. DVC has always maintained between 2-4% of the available points at each resort for its own use - usually to replace member inventory taken out-of-service for maintenance issues but also to use as it desires. DVD also provides for cash reservations at resorts in active sales where all inventory has yet to be declared to the DVC membership.

The bulk of cash reservations available to non-members comes from points used by DVC members for non-DVC options. Again, feel free to provide supporting documentation for your statements to the contrary. Those points are converted into reservations made available thru DRC for cash reservation to pay for the non-DVC options. In addition, any DVC inventory unreserved at 60 days is also used for cash reservations and those receipts are used to defray members fees at each resort.

Please provide any documentation you have to support your statements above.

 

[RobDoc]

just a question where does that 200$ go?

The $199.95 goes to defray the cost of running the DISboards. It is not a requirement for anyone to use the DVC rent/Trade Board.

 

[RobDoc]

I agree that this portion clearly refers to running a business from the property. I'll have to review when I can (sitting bedside at the Hosp with my spouse) but I'm pretty sure the term Commercial is used in the rental context in the POS. I don't want to try to quote from memory otherwise.


General response to this thread added: The other aspect that some point to in this type of discussion is the wording that suggests that DVC should be purchased for personal use and not for profit. Some mistakenly take this as a limit on renting where it simply is a caution that if you approach it this way, you would likely be losing money. It's actually wording required by the state and related to the historical practice of timeshares selling with the hook of future rental and resale profit and not a preclusion.

I hope your wife is doing well with your bedside support!

I don't know if this is the section you were thinking of, but from the May, 1993 Exhibit "I" to Declaration of Condominium, Section IV. RENTALS, part 4.1 Club Member Rentals
"A Club Member may make a reservation to use the accommodations of the Condominium or other DVC Resorts, if any, himself, make their use available to family or friends or guests, or rent them solely through his own efforts. DVD's approval of a rental by a Club Member is not required after a reservation has been made in the renter's own name, and Club Members are permitted to rent their occupancy rights on terms and conditions that they may establish. No rental assistance is being offered by DVD or DVC or any affiliate or subsidiary of DVD and DVC. All renters must comply with the rules and regulations affecting occupancy, and the renting Club Member will be responsible for the acts or omissions of his renters or any other person pr persons permitted by the Club Member to use the accommodation. Neither DVD nor DVC in any way represent or promote that a particular DVC Resort accommodation can be rented, or if it is rented, that any particular rental rate can be obtained for such rental."

I realize that this specific language may have been altered in whole or in part by DVD since 1993 but I believe the intent (and probably the language itself) still remains in DVC sales documents at this time.