Am I the only one who doesn't get the "Occupy Wallstreet" movements

[Geoff_M]

Handful of Violent Rioters Don’t Represent “Occupy” Protests
http://www.zerohedge.com/contributed/handful-violent-rioters-don’t-represent-“occupy”-protests


Much to read there and what's described doesn't surprise me in the least.

Well, there were 80+ arrests of protesters that went "off-message" late Wednesday night, so I think we're talking about more than a "handful" of folks. Also, if you actually look at the live-blog entries from the Oakland Tribune as one of their reporters witnessed the Oakland "campers" struggle to deal with what happened, you'll see that it's a bit more complicated than "a handful of outsiders hijacked our protest and ruined it for everyone". It appears that for the campers some of the "they" was "them":

10:20 a.m. Tent city to talk about destructive anarchists
The campers will be discussing at their morning meeting how to keep out the destructive anarchist element.

"It's not us, it's a bunch of guys who wear black masks," said Michael Porter, 24, who works full-time selling DirectTV and has been camping at the Occupy Oakland site. "It's messing with our movement. They leech off our numbers -- they only show up when there's a rally."

Porter will be leading a discussion at the meeting starting soon.

"There's a handful of us trying to confront them but they just gang up on you."

11:40 a.m. Occupy Oakland campers consider cleaning up, apologizing for vandalism
The tent city is holding a meeting to decide what to do about smashed windows, graffiti and other vandalism downtown. When the meeting started, there was disagreement about who was responsible, whether it was from outside agitators or from the camp or other sources.

They are also considering formally disavowing the damage and personally apologizing to business owners affected.

One West Oakland resident came to yell at them and threatened to "break off their little fingers" if they came to her neighborhood.

A woman facilitating the meeting asked "What are we going to do to take back our movement when we see people breaking windows and writing on walls?"

Another person disagreed, saying, "They shut down five schools in Oakland and then they cry and complain about letters on a wall."

12:30 p.m. Anti-vandalism proposal to go to full camp meeting
Campers have reached an anti-vandalism consensus and will likely return to how to stop the vandals at tonight's 6 p.m. general assembly for a vote. They are currently voting on when/how to apologize to business owners.

Milani, a camper who did not want to give a last name, spoke against apologizing to businesses. She said it wasn't just outsiders committing vandalism.

"The person I saw putting toilet paper up, they're a facilitator at the general assembly. The person spray painting, they're on the events committee."

Another camper disagreed, and proposed starting a "good neighbor" committee.

 

[OceanAnnie]

I don't agree with studen loan forgiveness, but I can understand the student's frustraion.

If you started college in fall of '08, you'd be graduating (assuming a 4 year degree) in spring of '12. But fall of '08 was the economy tanking, taking the stock market with it. If you're parents saved for your college, you just saw your college fund wiped out just as you were moving in to your dorm. Meanwhile maybe one or even both of your parents got layed off so they can't really help you anymore, and anyway they now have their own retirement to worry about since their 401k's took a hit too...

So...you take on loans (or more loans) that you didn't anticipate, hoping the economy would recover in the next 4-5 years so you could get a decent job and pay those loans back. Afterall, the ticket to a good job is still an education, or so you grew up believing. But the jobs recovery never really happened, and now you're looking at trying to find a job in the next 12 months with high 5 digit loans hanging over your head. Not pretty picture. Meanwhile, the banks that helped cause all this mess got bailed out by tax dollars.

Like I said, student loan forgivness isn't any kind of solution and I'm against it. But...well, like I said, I can understand their frustration. The current generation of college students got screwed on both ends.

I didn't have a college fund. Lots of my friends didn't either. I had a mid range 5 digit loan. I had to work jobs that weren't paying that great to pay them. It took years. There isn't a quick fix for that. I was frustrated too, but I did it.

I see a lot of these younger people protesting their loans. When I was their age, I was working and going to school.

I'm saying it can be done. Paying off your loans can be done. People want the quick fix. Forgetabout the starter homes, working your way up, paying off your loans. Everyone wants it all right now.

You sign for a loan, you pay for it. If you don't someone else gets screwed.
The people that did honor their commitments are getting screwed from all sides.

 

[brerrabbit]

I understand the frustration, I really do, but I don't get the OW protests at all. One poster here likened it to the Civil Rights protests of the 60's and said they weren't sure of their demands when they started either. I can only take what she says as I was very young and not a part of that but it seems the message became very clear and very focused, very quickly. I do not see that happening with OWS.

The problems we face as a nation are much more complex, and much more diverse. There is no one solution. We have got where we are over a long period and the problem is not one political party or the other, but rather both.

I cannot accept the idea of forgive my college loans because you bailed out the banks, so you should bail me out too. A big part of our problem is a lack of personal responsibility. I don't know about you but before I borrow $100,000 whether it's for college, a house, a car or anything, I spend a lot of sleepless nights thinking about it because in the world I grew up in a debt is a debt and you pay it back, end of story. Not so today, I did not agree with bank bailouts, and I do not agrre with a wholesale forgiving of college loans.

There are other options for college believe it or not. Work study programs, part time school, community colleges, state colleges etc. You don't have to shoot for Harvard if you can't afford it. This next statement will not go over well with many but it is a reality. A lot of people in this world (or in the US) should not attend college. There is a big dropout rate amoung students and believe me public money can only be spread so far to cover higher education expenses. So when state funding is cut but so many are going to college the only alternative is to raise tuition and thus costs skyrocket and therefore more students take out loans to fund it.

We enjoy immense freedoms living in the US but with those freedoms come a lot of responsibilities and a lot of looking out for yourself. The US is not and hopefully will not ever be a Nanny State that protects every citizen every step of the way. That happens and it's not America anymore.

I say that because so much of what I hear today is I bought this house and now I can't afford it, so it's the lenders fault, it's the banks fault, it's the government's fault. No if you could not afford the house allowing for the possibility of an economic downturn then you should not have bought the thing. Maybe in many ways based on my age and where I have lived my whole life (Texas) I am very lucky. I was in my mid twenties living in Houston and working for an Energy Company when the oil bust hit Houston hard. I saw real estate values tank, I saw people lose their jobs, and I saw them lose their homes. Hard as that is I think it is a lesson that many would benifit from seeing. That experience has influenced my actions for the rest of my life. I bought a house I could afford in good times and bad. I saved for the lean times. I saved for my kids college and we have through 8 years of paying for college yet to borrow a penney.

So many younger people in todays world never really saw anything like this and bought into the idea that those types of things could happen and believed the hype that real estate values only go up and if you were educated by the right school you would always have a job.

The analogy I would make is that everyone buys insurance because they know bad things can happen to good people, but beyond that are willing to overspend and overbuy in real estate because nothing bad happens there.

Finally as I said before I understand the frustration and the anger about the bailouts but the point is what's next? What do the protestors want? And are they protesting the right people? Who gave them the bailouts? If miraculously the US Government forgave all college loan debt tomorrow does that mean I need to find all the benificiaries and occupy them? Seems the protestors are occupying the symptom and not the root cause which is Washington.

 

["Got Disney"]

Finally someone other than me gives a hoot about the Solyndra scandal. Not one person backing this OWS has ever said one negative thing about that, including those on this thread. That is what bothers me about OWS. Their outrage is targeted at what the powers that be want them to be angry with.

Reminds me of wind power. Wonderful green technology. I don't have an official count of how many tens of thousands of birds are killed annually in the blades, but I do know if there is an oil spill, everyone that loves green is all over the poor birds that are slicked with oil.

I get angry at the salaries and bonuses given to those that run Fannie Freddie. Nobody seems to care about that either.

Yup, focus on the politicians, not capitalism.



For some reason, a lot of people can't seem to grasp the difference between higher tax rate and higher taxes.
I guess it serves a purpose to be able to say it incorrectly to make a (false) point.



I agree 100%. I don't blame this mess on the president either.
It took years and years of a 2 party congress and 2 party presidents to create this.
We will be with Greece in no time if people don't wake up.

i do blame Obama to a point....he is the one shouting that the 1% are bad people and don't give a hoot about the 99%......he is the one pushing warfare when it comes to the haves and the have nots...he is the one pushing blaming the rich for the worlds woes....he is the one yelling to the roof tops about class warfare....this is feeding the people that want more that they deserve more because they are told this over and over again....his rhetoric can not be excused in this.

 

[brerrabbit]

When I can buy a half gallon of Bluebell for what a pint of this costs why would I ever do it? If being socially consious means things cost this much then most of the 99% will never get there.

 

[robinb]

*sigh* The more things change the more things stay the same.

 

[moburg]

Handful of Violent Rioters Don’t Represent “Occupy” Protests
http://www.zerohedge.com/contributed/handful-violent-rioters-don’t-represent-“occupy”-protests


Much to read there and what's described doesn't surprise me in the least.

Its more than a "handful".

 

[JDUCKY]

[QUOTE="Got Disney";43151218]i do blame Obama to a point....he is the one shouting that the 1% are bad people and don't give a hoot about the 99%......he is the one pushing warfare when it comes to the haves and the have nots...he is the one pushing blaming the rich for the worlds woes....he is the one yelling to the roof tops about class warfare....this is feeding the people that want more that they deserve more because they are told this over and over again....his rhetoric can not be excused in this.[/QUOTE]

Actually, most of those involved in this movement are unhappy with the President, too. He did, after all, swiftly move to put insiders (mostly Bank of America execs) into his top economic posts. He kept Bernanke as Fed Chairman. He put Geithner in at Treasury (from his post at the Federal Reserve). Pretty much did a 180-degree turn from his stance during his campaign.

 

[JDUCKY]

Its more than a "handful".

I didn't write the title.

I take it you didn't read all of the content nor watch the videos therein?

 

[moburg]

I didn't write the title.

I take it you didn't read all of the content nor watch the videos therein?

Then you would be wrong.

Videos of some violent people and some other non-violent people does not indicate that the violent people are infiltrator provocateurs. It merely shows that some are violent and some are not. Kudos to those who are not violent. I wish there were more of them, and maybe the numerous rapes, fires, smashed windows, vandalized businesses, etc would not have occurred.

The "documented" cases are from the Egyptian Arab Spring, and Indonesia in 1998, and Quebec in 2007, and London in 2009.

Not sure what exactly that has to say about OWS in 2011, but if it works for you, knock yourself out.

 

[DisneyMomOK]

OWS was organized well in advance too. The call went out from Adbusters in mid July, the same time Occupywallst.org was registered.

But I'm not sure why you would think an advanced organized event would not be violent, but a supposed spontaneous event or longer lasting event would be inherently violent. Its not the organization. Its the organized. And the organized, the people at OWS, are becoming increasingly more violent.

Considering who is lining up behind the movement and throwing their support to OWS, I am not at all surprised at the escalating violence. You know that old saying... show me your friends and I'll show you your future. Very appropriate here.

AdBusters started the call for OWS on June 9, 2011, the same time Kalle Lasn (man behind AdBusters) registered OccupyWallStreet. org. http://who.godaddy.com/whois.aspx?k...T&domain=occupywallstreet.org&prog_id=GoDaddy

Lasn is a hypocrite who dislikes the US and complains about the horrors of eating meat, driving a car and using evil products...like refrigerators, while admitting his own penchant for McD's, his Toyota, and other creature comforts.

And, yes, he has a plethora of money-making ads in his publications.

http://activistcash.com/organization_overview.cfm/o/36-adbusters

 

[JDUCKY]

Then you would be wrong.

Videos of some violent people and some other non-violent people does not indicate that the violent people are infiltrator provocateurs. It merely shows that some are violent and some are not. Kudos to those who are not violent. I wish there were more of them, and maybe the numerous rapes, fires, smashed windows, vandalized businesses, etc would not have occurred.

The "documented" cases are from the Egyptian Arab Spring, and Indonesia in 1998, and Quebec in 2007, and London in 2009.

Not sure what exactly that has to say about OWS in 2011, but if it works for you, knock yourself out.

As well as documented cases in Pittsburgh of a G20 protest. cases in NYC and in Denver in the past.

And from the comments:

Oakland police posing as protesters:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eCpcA5D-Lc&feature=share

Anyone thinking the police aren't doing it all over is quite naive.


But, no matter whether we are for or against or indifferent, this movement has started something and already had an effect (look at Bank of America retracting its $5 debit card fee. Look at the 650,000 new accounts opened at credit unions.) It's not going to end any time soon.

Everyone have a fun and safe weekend!

 

[dngnb8]

Except those are documented instances of the police and/or governments using provocateurs. Documented and even admitted instances.

But I guess that doesn't mean anything to someone with preconceived notions.

So let me get this straight. The cops proved the kitchen helper to rape those women?

Is that really your response?

 

[JDUCKY]

AdBusters started the call for OWS on June 9, 2011, the same time Kalle Lasn (man behind AdBusters) registered OccupyWallStreet. org. http://who.godaddy.com/whois.aspx?k...T&domain=occupywallstreet.org&prog_id=GoDaddy

Lasn is a hypocrite who dislikes the US and complains about the horrors of eating meat, driving a car and using evil products...like refrigerators, while admitting his own penchant for McD's, his Toyota, and other creature comforts.

And, yes, he has a plethora of money-making ads in his publications.

http://activistcash.com/organization_overview.cfm/o/36-adbusters

hmm...some graphic designer in Canada who posted a blog is the driving force behind the whole movement, eh?

And here we've been told it was George Soros, or Obama himself!


btw:
http://blog.socialflow.com/post/7120244404/occupywallstreet-origin-and-spread-visualized

 

[JDUCKY]

So let me get this straight. The cops proved the kitchen helper to rape those women?

Is that really your response?

nice attempt at a strawman argument. Won't work on me.

 

[moburg]

As well as documented cases in Pittsburgh of a G20 protest. cases in NYC and in Denver in the past.

And from the comments:

Oakland police posing as protesters:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eCpcA5D-Lc&feature=share

Anyone thinking the police aren't doing it all over is quite naive.


But, no matter whether we are for or against or indifferent, this movement has started something and already had an effect (look at Bank of America retracting its $5 debit card fee. Look at the 650,000 new accounts opened at credit unions.) It's not going to end any time soon.

Everyone have a fun and safe weekend!

Ok, so plenty of documented cases at protests prior to OWS, but none at OWS. Got it!

 

["Got Disney"]

As well as documented cases in Pittsburgh of a G20 protest. cases in NYC and in Denver in the past.

And from the comments:

Oakland police posing as protesters:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eCpcA5D-Lc&feature=share

Anyone thinking the police aren't doing it all over is quite naive.


But, no matter whether we are for or against or indifferent, this movement has started something and already had an effect (look at Bank of America retracting its $5 debit card fee. Look at the 650,000 new accounts opened at credit unions.) It's not going to end any time soon.

Everyone have a fun and safe weekend!

the cops all over are undercover to prevent rapes and get the crazys arrested...if ya dont commit a crime than they have nothing to worry about...I also love how they are calling all the protesters peacefull...the hell with theft threats rape and all the fun things going on...

the fact that some think the police are infiltrating to cause trouble is ridiculous.



and if you really think that the protesters had anything thing to do with BOA dropping its fees you are wrong.....

having our congressman call for a run on the banks and telling people to pull their monies out is what did it...not the protesters.....

they are not changing anything.....

 

[moburg]

Oakland police posing as protesters:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eCpcA5D-Lc&feature=share

OMG, undercover police officers! STOP THE PRESSES! Where is the video of those undercover officers committing violence or property destruction or other "provocateur" activity??

 

[moburg]

hmm...some graphic designer in Canada who posted a blog is the driving force behind the whole movement, eh?

And here we've been told it was George Soros, or Obama himself!


btw:
http://blog.socialflow.com/post/7120244404/occupywallstreet-origin-and-spread-visualized

Close. Adbusters receives funds from the Tides Foundation, which receives funds from Soros. Kinda like the Koch brothers funding organizations that sponsored some Tea Party events and funds other organizations that sponsor Tea Party events.

Oh, I know, not at all the same thing in your mind. I understand.

 

[DisneyMomOK]

hmm...some graphic designer in Canada who posted a blog is the driving force behind the whole movement, eh?

And here we've been told it was George Soros, or Obama himself!


btw:
http://blog.socialflow.com/post/7120244404/occupywallstreet-origin-and-spread-visualized

I think your characterization of Lasn as "some graphic designer" is inaccurate, despite Lasn's attempts to diminish his own capitalist footprint. Lasn is the editor-in-chief of AdBusters Media Foundation, which is a magazine, website and more. It receives hundreds of thousands of dollars in "charitable contributions". Plus, he creates documentaries for PBS and others.

http://activistcash.com/organization_financials.cfm/o/36-adbusters