A student is to a school as.....

MiniGirl

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an employee is to an employer

or

a client is to a company


There are so many threads on the DIS dealing with schools. Often in these threads, someone will compare school to a business. In the comparison, the student is often put in the "employee" role.

I'm just curious if this is the role most people see a student taking because I always find the comparison odd. To me it makes more sense to put the student (and the student's parents) in the role of client or customer. I mean is the school there to serve the student or the student there to serve the school?

Just curious. Maybe I'm the only one that looks at it that way.
 
You're right. The school is there to serve the parents and students.

There's a new program here in Kentucky that emphasizes customer service for schools. Kelly Middleton and Liz Pettit (associate and assistant superintendents of Mason County, Ky)have written a book about how things need to change in the public school system as far as customer service.

I attended a training Middleton gave and it was kind of eye-opening. The school I worked at was doing a pilot program with Middleton and Pettit. Teachers and paras visited the home of every student in the summer before school started. Changes were also made to the front offices of school that are part of this pilot program, to make them more customer service oriented.

The book is called Who Cares. It's an interesting read.
 
Personally, I think that saying that school is a childs "job" is the best comparison. It really is. Until I was 18, my "job" was to attend school, just as it is my dads "job" to show up to work everyday.

Honestly, I dont understand why so many parents have problems with this.

The schools have rules. Including attendance rules and they need to be followed. If parents dont have a problem with their child getting zeros on assignments or tests than thats their option. No school is STOPPING you from taking your child out, but there might be consequences if you take them out for too long. You as the parent has a choice and a lot of people on these boards dont seem to have much consideration for the rules put forth by schools. It seems like it's more of if they dont like the rules than they dont have to follow them kind of attitude.

But by saying they are "clients", that would imply that the schools and teachers should cater to every kid whos familiy wants to take a vacation or who just wants to take a day off. I'm sorry, but that is ridiculous.

I don't think its one way or the other.

I bellieve that schools need to make accomodations for students as neccesary. Which they do through IEPs, 504s, etc, for the students who need them. But no teacher should be put in a position of having to deal with make up work, make up tests, etc because someone went on vacation. Being able to make up work because of a vacation should not be something that anyone should expect teachers to do. I think there is a line that needs to be drawn and there is no way for a school district to make everyone happy. Its just not going to happen so they do what they feel is the best for their district and those rules need to be followed by the parents AND students.
 
A student is the equivalent of someone who is self-employed and school (if it's paid for) is the equivalent of buying Office Professional to help with your home business. If it's not paid for (public schooling) its freeware.
 

Personally, I think that saying that school is a childs "job" is the best comparison. It really is. Until I was 18, my "job" was to attend school, just as it is my dads "job" to show up to work everyday.

Honestly, I dont understand why so many parents have problems with this.

The schools have rules. Including attendance rules and they need to be followed. If parents dont have a problem with their child getting zeros on assignments or tests than thats their option. No school is STOPPING you from taking your child out, but there might be consequences if you take them out for too long. You as the parent has a choice and a lot of people on these boards dont seem to have much consideration for the rules put forth by schools. It seems like it's more of if they dont like the rules than they dont have to follow them kind of attitude.

But by saying they are "clients", that would imply that the schools and teachers should cater to every kid whos familiy wants to take a vacation or who just wants to take a day off. I'm sorry, but that is ridiculous.

I don't think its one way or the other.

I bellieve that schools need to make accomodations for students as neccesary. Which they do through IEPs, 504s, etc, for the students who need them. But no teacher should be put in a position of having to deal with make up work, make up tests, etc because someone went on vacation. Being able to make up work because of a vacation should not be something that anyone should expect teachers to do. I think there is a line that needs to be drawn and there is no way for a school district to make everyone happy. Its just not going to happen so they do what they feel is the best for their district and those rules need to be followed by the parents AND students.

Public schools have too much power- sorry it doesn't take a village. I don't want half of "the village" anywhere near my child.

If my child misses school I expect to be given a list of work to be completed- I do NOT expect the teacher to chase us down to get that work- completing it and turning it in is up to us. It's not too much to ask and it is part of their job.
 
I was all ready to type out my feelings on this and then I discovered I don't have to. Disfan07 already said it perfectly. I agree completely with her post.

Public schools have too much power- sorry it doesn't take a village. I don't want half of "the village" anywhere near my child.

If my child misses school I expect to be given a list of work to be completed- I do NOT expect the teacher to chase us down to get that work- completing it and turning it in is up to us. It's not too much to ask and it is part of their job.

I've never heard of teachers chasing down students to get their work. Is that common in your child's school? Unfortunately, according to the rules in some districts you might not get that list of things to be completed. In some places you can't make up work that was missed for an unexcused absence.
 
I would say that if the school is the company then the customer is society. The schools are educating our children for the good of society.
 
I was all ready to type out my feelings on this and then I discovered I don't have to. Disfan07 already said it perfectly. I agree completely with her post.



I've never heard of teachers chasing down students to get their work. Is that common in your child's school? Unfortunately, according to the rules in some districts you might not get that list of things to be completed. In some places you can't make up work that was missed for an unexcused absence.

What I meant was- after the teacher gives the list of work it is up to the student and parents to make sure it's done.

Here you get the work- I would fight a policy that says you don't. And as far as I'm concerned the absence is excused by a parent, not the school. I also will not get notes from a Doctor for illness- as the parent my word should be all they need to know my child is ill. Also I'd like to add, I do NOT lie to the school... I am up front about vacations and appointments.
 
An employee works. A client pays for a service that a business is to provide for their specifications and within the law.

To view a student as a client downplays their responsibility in it to do the work. They have the right to an education, but they don't have the right to nitpick their way to an outcome as a client might for a business relationship.

A student is in no way a client, IMHO. Yes, I homeschool and I tell my children consistently that they must work. It isn't an option to refuse to so it because they don't like something. The only time the student is a client is when they have a special need that must be addressed to make success possible.

Have you ever worked with a client vs an employee? Big difference in the two.
 
My response has nothing to do with the vacation thread. I haven't ever had a problem with small vacations within reason. Many employees can request a vacation outside of a work shut down---so my response actually would
be okay for a family deciding along with the school if taking a vacation during school time would be okay or not. One of many reasons we homeschool is for vacation flexibility. It isn't the only reason though.
 
Interesting responses so far, but I guess I should clarify.......

I am talking about your average student and family which, I believe, is responsible and does do the work required of them and takes schooling seriously. I'm not talking about the students and parents on either extreme -- either too demanding or slackers. I apologize for not clearly stating that earlier.
 
Interesting responses so far, but I guess I should clarify.......

I am talking about your average student and family which, I believe, is responsible and does do the work required of them and takes schooling seriously. I'm not talking about the students and parents on either extreme -- either too demanding or slackers. I apologize for not clearly stating that earlier.
On a side note...there are employers who do serve their employees.

It is possible to demonstrate "customer service" in am employer/employee relationship.

It is a slippery slope to place student and families in a client role.
As much flak as the teachers and school systems received, the tables may tip so far that the relationship is treated like servant/master.

Teachers are not slaves nor their to be at the whim of students amd their families.
 
What about - ?

A student is to a school as...
a gym member is to a personal trainer.

Yes, in a way, you are the "client", BUT you have hired the trainer because you trust his/her professional knowledge - and you pretty much do what he/she recommends if you expect to get the results you're paying for.
 
What I meant was- after the teacher gives the list of work it is up to the student and parents to make sure it's done.

Ah - this I agree with. If a student knows something is due and chooses not to do it, they should be free to do that. I think it is completely up to the student and parents to make sure the work gets done. I'm fine with letting someone fail if they don't want to do the work, as long as the parents are aware of the situation. Sometimes, though, when students are given a set amount of time to finish something - like 3 days after the absence, for example - and then they get a zero for not turning it in by the deadline, the parents come in ranting and raving because the teacher didn't remind the student to turn it in. :rolleyes: For every parent who wants to take responsibility and doesn't want the teacher trying to nanny their child there's a parent who expects the teacher to spoon feed the kid everything. Sometimes you just can't win.


As for fighting the policies - I can understand that. I miss the days when school was more like college, and it didn't matter how much time you missed as long as you could get passing grades. Unfortunately I know that the schools don't have much control over those policies, so I wouldn't fight it even though I dislike the new attendance policies. Sometimes I wish something would happen to change it, but most schools couldn't change it no matter how much they wanted to. Here, if a child misses 10 or more days for any reason, they are turned over to CPS and have to appear in court. The school doesn't really have any choice in the matter. Plus, the school's funds are partly determined by attendance. You just can't run a school with no money. I think basing the funding on attendance is a horrible idea, but the people who made that decision are so far removed from the schools they probably wouldn't have the first idea of how to run a good school.
 
The book is called Who Cares. It's an interesting read.

Sounds like a very interesting new approach. I will have to see if I can find the book.

Personally, I think that saying that school is a childs "job" is the best comparison. It really is. Until I was 18, my "job" was to attend school, just as it is my dads "job" to show up to work everyday.

I understand what you're saying. I really do. I think people get upset, though, when it seems as if the school's policies take precedence over the parent's desires for their child.

I hear a lot of people say that school is their child's job. I prefer to think that it is my child's job to learn, and ideally that is done in all kinds of different environments -- not just school.

A student is the equivalent of someone who is self-employed and school (if it's paid for) is the equivalent of buying Office Professional to help with your home business. If it's not paid for (public schooling) its freeware.

I never thought of it like that. Interesting.

I would say that if the school is the company then the customer is society. The schools are educating our children for the good of society.

So, where does that put the student?

An employee works. A client pays for a service that a business is to provide for their specifications and within the law.

To view a student as a client downplays their responsibility in it to do the work. They have the right to an education, but they don't have the right to nitpick their way to an outcome as a client might for a business relationship.

A student is in no way a client, IMHO. Yes, I homeschool and I tell my children consistently that they must work. It isn't an option to refuse to so it because they don't like something. The only time the student is a client is when they have a special need that must be addressed to make success possible.

Have you ever worked with a client vs an employee? Big difference in the two.

Yes. I am well aware of the differences between a client and an employee, and yes, I have worked with both.

A student (well, the parents anyway) through taxes are paying for a service. I also posted clarifying that I wasn't talking about overly demanding or slacker parents. As a homeschooler, though, I'm sure you realize that learning is not one size fits all, and schools simply cannot meet all those different types of learners needs equally. Should they not even try, though, to meet the needs of the kinesthetic learners as well as they meet the needs of the visual and auditory learners?

On a side note...there are employers who do serve their employees.

It is possible to demonstrate "customer service" in am employer/employee relationship.

It is a slippery slope to place student and families in a client role.
As much flak as the teachers and school systems received, the tables may tip so far that the relationship is treated like servant/master.

Teachers are not slaves nor their to be at the whim of students amd their families.

Whoa!!! I have never said that teachers are slaves or even implied that they should be.

And yes, there are companies that treat their employees well, and those employees, in turn, are very loyal to those companies and are more often than not, willing to go the extra mile when needed.

What about - ?

A student is to a school as...
a gym member is to a personal trainer.

Yes, in a way, you are the "client", BUT you have hired the trainer because you trust his/her professional knowledge - and you pretty much do what he/she recommends if you expect to get the results you're paying for.

Ahh..... this is a good one, and I think possible best fits my own personal thoughts. Thanks for posting it.
 
I think the opposite. A student is to a school as an employer is to an employee, for the most part. Not that students should run the classroom but that we are paid by them (their parents) to educate them to be successful productived members of society, problem-solvers, thinkers, leaders to the best of their ability.

When I taught gen ed 6th grade, (after I'd established a relationship with them) I'd explain to the kids that their parents are paying me to teach them. If they don't do their best, try their hardest, and if I don't use proven methods (correcting their work, etc) they are wasting their parents' money that could go toward a trip to Disneyland because they'll now have to pay twice (taxes AND tutors or whatever) or something along those lines. We're talking 1991 so I can't remember but that was the jist (sp?) of it. I teach little ones now so don't talk like that but my belief is basically the same.

Also, how would I want my kid's role at school to be? (that's a convoluted sentence I know). I'd want their education (and the money from taxes I paid) to drive the teacher's / school's work. Does that make any sense at all how I've written it?


an employee is to an employer

or

a client is to a company


There are so many threads on the DIS dealing with schools. Often in these threads, someone will compare school to a business. In the comparison, the student is often put in the "employee" role.

I'm just curious if this is the role most people see a student taking because I always find the comparison odd. To me it makes more sense to put the student (and the student's parents) in the role of client or customer. I mean is the school there to serve the student or the student there to serve the school?

Just curious. Maybe I'm the only one that looks at it that way.
 
I wasn't saying you were inferring they were slaves. I was more drawing on the many threads I read that essentially are inferring by their expectations that the teacher is to serve them at their will and nothing more. The complaints drive me bonkers at times.

Yes, I homeschool and recognize that learning occurs in many ways.

But as a parent, I also recognize that teaching a large group of kids versus 1 on 1 will never be the same experience. There are concessions that must be
made. Due to the volume of students, teachers in a school setting do not have the luxury to customize every lesson to the individual whims of each child. Now that doesn't include when accomodations must be made.

Take me--I learn science best by watching it. I do not actually like to "do" science. I learn history best by seeing it, touching it, and tasting it. I get more out of a living history scenario than I will ever get out of a textbook.

I have no learning disabilities and it would be unreasonable to expect s public school system to excuse me from labs and pump up the field trips just because that is what I prefer.

A student (well, the parents anyway) through taxes are paying for a service. I also posted clarifying that I wasn't talking about overly demanding or slacker parents. As a homeschooler, though, I'm sure you realize that learning is not one size fits all, and schools simply cannot meet all those different types of learners needs equally. Should they not even try, though, to meet the needs of the kinesthetic learners as well as they meet the needs of the visual and auditory learners?



Whoa!!! I have never said that teachers are slaves or even implied that they should be.

And yes, there are companies that treat their employees well, and those employees, in turn, are very loyal to those companies and are more often than not, willing to go the extra mile when needed.



Ahh..... this is a good one, and I think possible best fits my own personal thoughts. Thanks for posting it.

My mom stayed on top of my education. It never occurred to her to tell the teachers HOW to teach, but she made sure that we could take advantage of opportunities that existed.

It is naive to expect to walk into any school as though it were Burger King. Far too many students to have it your way, right away.

That is why I cringe when fellow homeschoolers engage in a public school bashing session that is generalized or those that don't homeschool want to know why I don't like public education as that (in their mind) must be the only reason why people homeschool.
 
I think it's a false comparison to try to make analogies out of schools and businesses, personally.

Our current school model is not that of a business, and I really don't see how you can apply the same rules or standards to it; the model that is in place in our society is based around societal and communal support, not capitalism. When the community support as whole for a school is withdrawn, the school fails. No amount of talk, theory or grandstanding can change that.
 


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